Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Apologies for the long musings here but it's something I've been thinking about.

I traveled a lot throughout Eastern Europe and Central Asia in my early 20s and in my naive open mind I accepted that Western-style liberal democracy simply wasn't the be-all end-all, I was such a cultural relativist that one could even call me a dictator-apologist, "tankie", or conspiracy theorist a la The Grayzone if anyone is familiar with that podcast.

Then upon becoming a more educated, professional adult, I appreciated the freedom and opportunities that came with the US and the West. I definitely consider myself a political liberal and an economic social-democrat. I despise Trump and his authoritarian tendencies and Putin, Orban, Edrogan, and the like.

Here's the thing, though. Revisiting in my mind the places that I've visited and the people I've known that coastal urban liberals of the US take so much for granted that the rest of the world agrees with us. It's not just conservatives, right wingers, and Trump supporters in the US. It's everywhere else. We assume that everyone should agree that Ukraine are the good guys and Russia are the bad guys, that Israel are the good guys and Palestine are the bad guys, that everyone favors capitalism (whether American-style with less regulations or Northern European-style with more regulations), social welfare, social freedoms and gender equality and LGBTQ rights and separation of church and state. The fact is that day to day, people are looking out for themselves and their families and this is human nature, and that many populations around the world believe that regimes that we consider authoritarian deliver better on bread-and-butter issues. And that the church/mosque/whatever is essential to maintain a moral fabric of society. There are certain ways in which the rural conservatives in Alabama and West Virginia have more in common with many other parts in the world than people in Bethesda, Maryland.

If you look at Alexander Dugin and Eurasianism, I have read his texts many times, and have often thought it is the most abhorrent philosophy in the world, akin to Nazism. I still abhor Duginism, but I realize how it makes sense from a non-Western, socially conservative perspective.
There's a reason why BRICS exist. There's a reason why China is ascendant and the Belt and Road Initiative is working in other parts of Asia - they don't care about China's authoriarian policies or lack of freedom of speech or human rights violations reported... China is building things, America is bombing things - that's what they see. Likewise, Russia has done outreach in Africa and Latin America over thigns like cybersecurity and infrastructure policy. Even countries in Europe, many people are burned out over supporting Ukraine and feel that the EU hasn't done much of them, and don't feel like continuing to feel the pain over oil and gas sanctions against Russia.

You look at other cosmopolitan places in the world and assume that the US is so much better because of our freedoms, but places like Dubai (terribly misogynist!) and Singapore (they execute people who do drugs!) still attract people. Russia and China are not universal villains. The Arab world's wealth and energy sector trump their policies on women and LGBTQ rights. The world is just not woke. The world is multipolar, and we don't have to like it. The more the US fights against multipolarity, the more people will hate us.

Americans assume that the arc of history always bends towards justice, and more social freedoms, but this is simply not true. Culture needs to be left alone to evolve, not imposed by war or corporations.

They are favored in wealthy western countries but Russia and China spend billions to spread misinformation that undermines confidence in them.

The alternative to messy democracies is clinical dictatorships, no free press, no freedom of speech to criticize elected officials and jail worse for any promising opposition.

Umm, no thanks!

Okay. Now, imagine you have your messy democracy. Also, your money is worth nothing, your social safety benefit net has crumbled, you can’t find a job and everything is out of reach financially. Imagine how much you’d care about your freedom if speech then.

You have to be really honest about what you like about your democracies. If it’s economic prosperity, then remind yourself that you can clearly have that without democracy or at least a full range of it. Life in China, UAE, or Russia can be quite comfortable if you have the right skillset.

A good friend of mine is married to a VP of a major Russian bank. They are both UK citizens and have lived there for decades. But right now they have no intention of leaving bc life is just too dang comfortable.

So life is great as long as you’re visiting and the citizen of another country. You can travel around but with the protection of a foreign power.

I'm just saying that people care primarily about meeting their economic needs, and lots and lots of people are perfectly willing to accept reduced freedom and democratic rights in exchange for economic prosperity and solid safety net. Let's be honest, most people aren't that interested in politics. Conversely, if a democracy isn't meeting economic needs, freedom of speech isn't going to keep you warm when you have no job and your money can't buy anything. People assume economic prosperity goes along with liberal democracy but that's not always the case, and a look around the planet shows that many are comfortable without democracy as long as prosperity is there.

I think you have a weird definition for liberal democracy. I cannot think of a nation where the people are happy without it except China. And as I said before, China is still in a honeymoon due to the previous leaders. As Xi takes them further from prosperity, that will change.


As for economics, the vast majority of nations are less well off than the US, and that is why we have a very high immigration rate.

The problem with oligarchies is that absolute power corrupts absolutely, and once the nation falls into the hands of an agressive idiot (say Trump), there is no way out. The nation then falls.

Democracy is messy. Liberal democracy is about repect for truth and the rule of law. No other form of government has those values. (we don't always live up to those values, but at least those are our asperational values in Japan, S. Korea, Europe, the US and other liberal democracies). No other form of government can say that.

The Gulf nations seem to enjoy prosperity without any democracy. Of course not everyone is happy but life is generally comfortable.

Remove economic prosperity from the democracy package and see what happens.

women, who are more than 50% of the population, are not happy

You don't actually know that. You are superimposing your value system onto theirs and assuming you'd feel a certain way about things. Being an actual Penninsula nation citizen is pretty luxurious because of the oil wealth and the use of third country nationals who work for slave wages. If you more or less buy into the culture that you grew up in (as most people do), and you want an easy life, you can have that in these nations. Also, they look at our conditions in the US with absolute horror-- women culturally expected to show skin, to date around before getting an offer of engagement, rarely have prenuptial agreements (which have existed in Islamic cultures for over a thousand years), having to work, etc. You think they think like you, but they don't.

what country are you from? In the US, if you want to show skin, you show skin. If you are Amish, and don't want to do that, you don't. And everybody has to work, even women in the gulf. They just do different kinds of work.

Look at Iran. The women there are making it very very clear they don't want the life you describe. And very very few women in the US chose that life. The Amish. A few mormons. A few orthodox Jews. But given a choice, most women chose freedom.

The irony is that the U.S. is to blame for the fact women in Iran live the life they live…

The history of human beings is full of irony. What's your point? Because the US has done bad things, has some bad people, you want to live in Iran, without the basic protections of rule of law and without some basic freedoms? Because if you cannot have perfection, you want hell?

No, I am saying that maybe it’s time to either stop meddling in other countries’ affairs, or at least stop pretending that this is done for the sake of democracy…
Democracy is great, I love it. But let’s pretend it can happen everywhere,
Where there is a will, there is a way, etc

NP
This is a good point. The list is long of countries that have become decidedly undemocratic after US meddling and scheming. Or what’s even worse is when US gets played (like how Aung San Suu Kyi who took advantage of the good will of the US for decades and then betrayed the democratic world and proved to be just as brutal as the military junta).

Because as I said before, there are only two choices for the countries that aren’t part of the “first world” today - either become essentially subservient to the U.S. (under the guise of building democracy) which doesn’t bring much prosperity, OR start standing their ground and at some point being cornered into becoming autocracies, totalitarian regimes etc.

so what do you think has changed, so that the path that was open to S. Korea or China is no longer open? or even Spain, which was impoverished under Franco. Or East Germany, which was impoverished before unification? Or Ireland, which was impoverished under British rule? Although China does seem to be oddly turning to totalitarianism and patriarchy under Xi. I agree with the poster who said Deng is going to be one of the great names in history.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Apologies for the long musings here but it's something I've been thinking about.

I traveled a lot throughout Eastern Europe and Central Asia in my early 20s and in my naive open mind I accepted that Western-style liberal democracy simply wasn't the be-all end-all, I was such a cultural relativist that one could even call me a dictator-apologist, "tankie", or conspiracy theorist a la The Grayzone if anyone is familiar with that podcast.

Then upon becoming a more educated, professional adult, I appreciated the freedom and opportunities that came with the US and the West. I definitely consider myself a political liberal and an economic social-democrat. I despise Trump and his authoritarian tendencies and Putin, Orban, Edrogan, and the like.

Here's the thing, though. Revisiting in my mind the places that I've visited and the people I've known that coastal urban liberals of the US take so much for granted that the rest of the world agrees with us. It's not just conservatives, right wingers, and Trump supporters in the US. It's everywhere else. We assume that everyone should agree that Ukraine are the good guys and Russia are the bad guys, that Israel are the good guys and Palestine are the bad guys, that everyone favors capitalism (whether American-style with less regulations or Northern European-style with more regulations), social welfare, social freedoms and gender equality and LGBTQ rights and separation of church and state. The fact is that day to day, people are looking out for themselves and their families and this is human nature, and that many populations around the world believe that regimes that we consider authoritarian deliver better on bread-and-butter issues. And that the church/mosque/whatever is essential to maintain a moral fabric of society. There are certain ways in which the rural conservatives in Alabama and West Virginia have more in common with many other parts in the world than people in Bethesda, Maryland.

If you look at Alexander Dugin and Eurasianism, I have read his texts many times, and have often thought it is the most abhorrent philosophy in the world, akin to Nazism. I still abhor Duginism, but I realize how it makes sense from a non-Western, socially conservative perspective.
There's a reason why BRICS exist. There's a reason why China is ascendant and the Belt and Road Initiative is working in other parts of Asia - they don't care about China's authoriarian policies or lack of freedom of speech or human rights violations reported... China is building things, America is bombing things - that's what they see. Likewise, Russia has done outreach in Africa and Latin America over thigns like cybersecurity and infrastructure policy. Even countries in Europe, many people are burned out over supporting Ukraine and feel that the EU hasn't done much of them, and don't feel like continuing to feel the pain over oil and gas sanctions against Russia.

You look at other cosmopolitan places in the world and assume that the US is so much better because of our freedoms, but places like Dubai (terribly misogynist!) and Singapore (they execute people who do drugs!) still attract people. Russia and China are not universal villains. The Arab world's wealth and energy sector trump their policies on women and LGBTQ rights. The world is just not woke. The world is multipolar, and we don't have to like it. The more the US fights against multipolarity, the more people will hate us.

Americans assume that the arc of history always bends towards justice, and more social freedoms, but this is simply not true. Culture needs to be left alone to evolve, not imposed by war or corporations.

They are favored in wealthy western countries but Russia and China spend billions to spread misinformation that undermines confidence in them.

The alternative to messy democracies is clinical dictatorships, no free press, no freedom of speech to criticize elected officials and jail worse for any promising opposition.

Umm, no thanks!

Okay. Now, imagine you have your messy democracy. Also, your money is worth nothing, your social safety benefit net has crumbled, you can’t find a job and everything is out of reach financially. Imagine how much you’d care about your freedom if speech then.

You have to be really honest about what you like about your democracies. If it’s economic prosperity, then remind yourself that you can clearly have that without democracy or at least a full range of it. Life in China, UAE, or Russia can be quite comfortable if you have the right skillset.

A good friend of mine is married to a VP of a major Russian bank. They are both UK citizens and have lived there for decades. But right now they have no intention of leaving bc life is just too dang comfortable.

So life is great as long as you’re visiting and the citizen of another country. You can travel around but with the protection of a foreign power.

I'm just saying that people care primarily about meeting their economic needs, and lots and lots of people are perfectly willing to accept reduced freedom and democratic rights in exchange for economic prosperity and solid safety net. Let's be honest, most people aren't that interested in politics. Conversely, if a democracy isn't meeting economic needs, freedom of speech isn't going to keep you warm when you have no job and your money can't buy anything. People assume economic prosperity goes along with liberal democracy but that's not always the case, and a look around the planet shows that many are comfortable without democracy as long as prosperity is there.

I think you have a weird definition for liberal democracy. I cannot think of a nation where the people are happy without it except China. And as I said before, China is still in a honeymoon due to the previous leaders. As Xi takes them further from prosperity, that will change.


As for economics, the vast majority of nations are less well off than the US, and that is why we have a very high immigration rate.

The problem with oligarchies is that absolute power corrupts absolutely, and once the nation falls into the hands of an agressive idiot (say Trump), there is no way out. The nation then falls.

Democracy is messy. Liberal democracy is about repect for truth and the rule of law. No other form of government has those values. (we don't always live up to those values, but at least those are our asperational values in Japan, S. Korea, Europe, the US and other liberal democracies). No other form of government can say that.

The Gulf nations seem to enjoy prosperity without any democracy. Of course not everyone is happy but life is generally comfortable.

Remove economic prosperity from the democracy package and see what happens.

women, who are more than 50% of the population, are not happy

You don't actually know that. You are superimposing your value system onto theirs and assuming you'd feel a certain way about things. Being an actual Penninsula nation citizen is pretty luxurious because of the oil wealth and the use of third country nationals who work for slave wages. If you more or less buy into the culture that you grew up in (as most people do), and you want an easy life, you can have that in these nations. Also, they look at our conditions in the US with absolute horror-- women culturally expected to show skin, to date around before getting an offer of engagement, rarely have prenuptial agreements (which have existed in Islamic cultures for over a thousand years), having to work, etc. You think they think like you, but they don't.

what country are you from? In the US, if you want to show skin, you show skin. If you are Amish, and don't want to do that, you don't. And everybody has to work, even women in the gulf. They just do different kinds of work.

Look at Iran. The women there are making it very very clear they don't want the life you describe. And very very few women in the US chose that life. The Amish. A few mormons. A few orthodox Jews. But given a choice, most women chose freedom.

The irony is that the U.S. is to blame for the fact women in Iran live the life they live…

The history of human beings is full of irony. What's your point? Because the US has done bad things, has some bad people, you want to live in Iran, without the basic protections of rule of law and without some basic freedoms? Because if you cannot have perfection, you want hell?

No, I am saying that maybe it’s time to either stop meddling in other countries’ affairs, or at least stop pretending that this is done for the sake of democracy…
Democracy is great, I love it. But let’s pretend it can happen everywhere,
Where there is a will, there is a way, etc

NP
This is a good point. The list is long of countries that have become decidedly undemocratic after US meddling and scheming. Or what’s even worse is when US gets played (like how Aung San Suu Kyi who took advantage of the good will of the US for decades and then betrayed the democratic world and proved to be just as brutal as the military junta).

Because as I said before, there are only two choices for the countries that aren’t part of the “first world” today - either become essentially subservient to the U.S. (under the guise of building democracy) which doesn’t bring much prosperity, OR start standing their ground and at some point being cornered into becoming autocracies, totalitarian regimes etc.

I agree wholeheartedly with you.

Anonymous wrote:Two of the up and coming countries while no friend of each other make no bone about oppressing minorities and disdain for democracy in their respective countries. With the Chinese it’s to be expected but the way the Indians have betrayed democratic values is pretty shocking.

India is poisoned by democracy.

Without its own Deng, it will never move to middle income status.

No country has attempted democracy at India’s relative per capita economic status and been able to develop into middle income status.

If China had Ghandi, Nehru and Jinnah instead of mao and deng, it would be crushingly poor to this day.

Deng especially is extremely underrated when it comes to sheer influence on the number of humans he moved up the HDI ladder. History will judge Deng extremely kindly

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Apologies for the long musings here but it's something I've been thinking about.

I traveled a lot throughout Eastern Europe and Central Asia in my early 20s and in my naive open mind I accepted that Western-style liberal democracy simply wasn't the be-all end-all, I was such a cultural relativist that one could even call me a dictator-apologist, "tankie", or conspiracy theorist a la The Grayzone if anyone is familiar with that podcast.

Then upon becoming a more educated, professional adult, I appreciated the freedom and opportunities that came with the US and the West. I definitely consider myself a political liberal and an economic social-democrat. I despise Trump and his authoritarian tendencies and Putin, Orban, Edrogan, and the like.

Here's the thing, though. Revisiting in my mind the places that I've visited and the people I've known that coastal urban liberals of the US take so much for granted that the rest of the world agrees with us. It's not just conservatives, right wingers, and Trump supporters in the US. It's everywhere else. We assume that everyone should agree that Ukraine are the good guys and Russia are the bad guys, that Israel are the good guys and Palestine are the bad guys, that everyone favors capitalism (whether American-style with less regulations or Northern European-style with more regulations), social welfare, social freedoms and gender equality and LGBTQ rights and separation of church and state. The fact is that day to day, people are looking out for themselves and their families and this is human nature, and that many populations around the world believe that regimes that we consider authoritarian deliver better on bread-and-butter issues. And that the church/mosque/whatever is essential to maintain a moral fabric of society. There are certain ways in which the rural conservatives in Alabama and West Virginia have more in common with many other parts in the world than people in Bethesda, Maryland.

If you look at Alexander Dugin and Eurasianism, I have read his texts many times, and have often thought it is the most abhorrent philosophy in the world, akin to Nazism. I still abhor Duginism, but I realize how it makes sense from a non-Western, socially conservative perspective.
There's a reason why BRICS exist. There's a reason why China is ascendant and the Belt and Road Initiative is working in other parts of Asia - they don't care about China's authoriarian policies or lack of freedom of speech or human rights violations reported... China is building things, America is bombing things - that's what they see. Likewise, Russia has done outreach in Africa and Latin America over thigns like cybersecurity and infrastructure policy. Even countries in Europe, many people are burned out over supporting Ukraine and feel that the EU hasn't done much of them, and don't feel like continuing to feel the pain over oil and gas sanctions against Russia.

You look at other cosmopolitan places in the world and assume that the US is so much better because of our freedoms, but places like Dubai (terribly misogynist!) and Singapore (they execute people who do drugs!) still attract people. Russia and China are not universal villains. The Arab world's wealth and energy sector trump their policies on women and LGBTQ rights. The world is just not woke. The world is multipolar, and we don't have to like it. The more the US fights against multipolarity, the more people will hate us.

Americans assume that the arc of history always bends towards justice, and more social freedoms, but this is simply not true. Culture needs to be left alone to evolve, not imposed by war or corporations.

They are favored in wealthy western countries but Russia and China spend billions to spread misinformation that undermines confidence in them.

The alternative to messy democracies is clinical dictatorships, no free press, no freedom of speech to criticize elected officials and jail worse for any promising opposition.

Umm, no thanks!

Okay. Now, imagine you have your messy democracy. Also, your money is worth nothing, your social safety benefit net has crumbled, you can’t find a job and everything is out of reach financially. Imagine how much you’d care about your freedom if speech then.

You have to be really honest about what you like about your democracies. If it’s economic prosperity, then remind yourself that you can clearly have that without democracy or at least a full range of it. Life in China, UAE, or Russia can be quite comfortable if you have the right skillset.

A good friend of mine is married to a VP of a major Russian bank. They are both UK citizens and have lived there for decades. But right now they have no intention of leaving bc life is just too dang comfortable.

So life is great as long as you’re visiting and the citizen of another country. You can travel around but with the protection of a foreign power.

I'm just saying that people care primarily about meeting their economic needs, and lots and lots of people are perfectly willing to accept reduced freedom and democratic rights in exchange for economic prosperity and solid safety net. Let's be honest, most people aren't that interested in politics. Conversely, if a democracy isn't meeting economic needs, freedom of speech isn't going to keep you warm when you have no job and your money can't buy anything. People assume economic prosperity goes along with liberal democracy but that's not always the case, and a look around the planet shows that many are comfortable without democracy as long as prosperity is there.

I think you have a weird definition for liberal democracy. I cannot think of a nation where the people are happy without it except China. And as I said before, China is still in a honeymoon due to the previous leaders. As Xi takes them further from prosperity, that will change.


As for economics, the vast majority of nations are less well off than the US, and that is why we have a very high immigration rate.

The problem with oligarchies is that absolute power corrupts absolutely, and once the nation falls into the hands of an agressive idiot (say Trump), there is no way out. The nation then falls.

Democracy is messy. Liberal democracy is about repect for truth and the rule of law. No other form of government has those values. (we don't always live up to those values, but at least those are our asperational values in Japan, S. Korea, Europe, the US and other liberal democracies). No other form of government can say that.

The Gulf nations seem to enjoy prosperity without any democracy. Of course not everyone is happy but life is generally comfortable.

Remove economic prosperity from the democracy package and see what happens.

women, who are more than 50% of the population, are not happy

You don't actually know that. You are superimposing your value system onto theirs and assuming you'd feel a certain way about things. Being an actual Penninsula nation citizen is pretty luxurious because of the oil wealth and the use of third country nationals who work for slave wages. If you more or less buy into the culture that you grew up in (as most people do), and you want an easy life, you can have that in these nations. Also, they look at our conditions in the US with absolute horror-- women culturally expected to show skin, to date around before getting an offer of engagement, rarely have prenuptial agreements (which have existed in Islamic cultures for over a thousand years), having to work, etc. You think they think like you, but they don't.

what country are you from? In the US, if you want to show skin, you show skin. If you are Amish, and don't want to do that, you don't. And everybody has to work, even women in the gulf. They just do different kinds of work.

Look at Iran. The women there are making it very very clear they don't want the life you describe. And very very few women in the US chose that life. The Amish. A few mormons. A few orthodox Jews. But given a choice, most women chose freedom.

The irony is that the U.S. is to blame for the fact women in Iran live the life they live…

The history of human beings is full of irony. What's your point? Because the US has done bad things, has some bad people, you want to live in Iran, without the basic protections of rule of law and without some basic freedoms? Because if you cannot have perfection, you want hell?

No, I am saying that maybe it’s time to either stop meddling in other countries’ affairs, or at least stop pretending that this is done for the sake of democracy…
Democracy is great, I love it. But let’s pretend it can happen everywhere,
Where there is a will, there is a way, etc

NP
This is a good point. The list is long of countries that have become decidedly undemocratic after US meddling and scheming. Or what’s even worse is when US gets played (like how Aung San Suu Kyi who took advantage of the good will of the US for decades and then betrayed the democratic world and proved to be just as brutal as the military junta).

Because as I said before, there are only two choices for the countries that aren’t part of the “first world” today - either become essentially subservient to the U.S. (under the guise of building democracy) which doesn’t bring much prosperity, OR start standing their ground and at some point being cornered into becoming autocracies, totalitarian regimes etc.

Look, democracy is great, but it’s not something that’s easy to build anywhere. And maybe some countries don’t even want it.
I think building democracy has become a catch all phrase for making less developed countries more likely to serve the U.S. interests. They are promise’s economic prosperity and freedom as a byproduct, but it doesn’t always happen and it’s just that, a byproduct. It usually isn’t as great as it was supposed to be.
So people get disillusioned and turn back to their totalitarian leadership or elect new one - who are often populists.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Apologies for the long musings here but it's something I've been thinking about.

I traveled a lot throughout Eastern Europe and Central Asia in my early 20s and in my naive open mind I accepted that Western-style liberal democracy simply wasn't the be-all end-all, I was such a cultural relativist that one could even call me a dictator-apologist, "tankie", or conspiracy theorist a la The Grayzone if anyone is familiar with that podcast.

Then upon becoming a more educated, professional adult, I appreciated the freedom and opportunities that came with the US and the West. I definitely consider myself a political liberal and an economic social-democrat. I despise Trump and his authoritarian tendencies and Putin, Orban, Edrogan, and the like.

Here's the thing, though. Revisiting in my mind the places that I've visited and the people I've known that coastal urban liberals of the US take so much for granted that the rest of the world agrees with us. It's not just conservatives, right wingers, and Trump supporters in the US. It's everywhere else. We assume that everyone should agree that Ukraine are the good guys and Russia are the bad guys, that Israel are the good guys and Palestine are the bad guys, that everyone favors capitalism (whether American-style with less regulations or Northern European-style with more regulations), social welfare, social freedoms and gender equality and LGBTQ rights and separation of church and state. The fact is that day to day, people are looking out for themselves and their families and this is human nature, and that many populations around the world believe that regimes that we consider authoritarian deliver better on bread-and-butter issues. And that the church/mosque/whatever is essential to maintain a moral fabric of society. There are certain ways in which the rural conservatives in Alabama and West Virginia have more in common with many other parts in the world than people in Bethesda, Maryland.

If you look at Alexander Dugin and Eurasianism, I have read his texts many times, and have often thought it is the most abhorrent philosophy in the world, akin to Nazism. I still abhor Duginism, but I realize how it makes sense from a non-Western, socially conservative perspective.
There's a reason why BRICS exist. There's a reason why China is ascendant and the Belt and Road Initiative is working in other parts of Asia - they don't care about China's authoriarian policies or lack of freedom of speech or human rights violations reported... China is building things, America is bombing things - that's what they see. Likewise, Russia has done outreach in Africa and Latin America over thigns like cybersecurity and infrastructure policy. Even countries in Europe, many people are burned out over supporting Ukraine and feel that the EU hasn't done much of them, and don't feel like continuing to feel the pain over oil and gas sanctions against Russia.

You look at other cosmopolitan places in the world and assume that the US is so much better because of our freedoms, but places like Dubai (terribly misogynist!) and Singapore (they execute people who do drugs!) still attract people. Russia and China are not universal villains. The Arab world's wealth and energy sector trump their policies on women and LGBTQ rights. The world is just not woke. The world is multipolar, and we don't have to like it. The more the US fights against multipolarity, the more people will hate us.

Americans assume that the arc of history always bends towards justice, and more social freedoms, but this is simply not true. Culture needs to be left alone to evolve, not imposed by war or corporations.

They are favored in wealthy western countries but Russia and China spend billions to spread misinformation that undermines confidence in them.

The alternative to messy democracies is clinical dictatorships, no free press, no freedom of speech to criticize elected officials and jail worse for any promising opposition.

Umm, no thanks!

Okay. Now, imagine you have your messy democracy. Also, your money is worth nothing, your social safety benefit net has crumbled, you can’t find a job and everything is out of reach financially. Imagine how much you’d care about your freedom if speech then.

You have to be really honest about what you like about your democracies. If it’s economic prosperity, then remind yourself that you can clearly have that without democracy or at least a full range of it. Life in China, UAE, or Russia can be quite comfortable if you have the right skillset.

A good friend of mine is married to a VP of a major Russian bank. They are both UK citizens and have lived there for decades. But right now they have no intention of leaving bc life is just too dang comfortable.

So life is great as long as you’re visiting and the citizen of another country. You can travel around but with the protection of a foreign power.

I'm just saying that people care primarily about meeting their economic needs, and lots and lots of people are perfectly willing to accept reduced freedom and democratic rights in exchange for economic prosperity and solid safety net. Let's be honest, most people aren't that interested in politics. Conversely, if a democracy isn't meeting economic needs, freedom of speech isn't going to keep you warm when you have no job and your money can't buy anything. People assume economic prosperity goes along with liberal democracy but that's not always the case, and a look around the planet shows that many are comfortable without democracy as long as prosperity is there.

I think you have a weird definition for liberal democracy. I cannot think of a nation where the people are happy without it except China. And as I said before, China is still in a honeymoon due to the previous leaders. As Xi takes them further from prosperity, that will change.


As for economics, the vast majority of nations are less well off than the US, and that is why we have a very high immigration rate.

The problem with oligarchies is that absolute power corrupts absolutely, and once the nation falls into the hands of an agressive idiot (say Trump), there is no way out. The nation then falls.

Democracy is messy. Liberal democracy is about repect for truth and the rule of law. No other form of government has those values. (we don't always live up to those values, but at least those are our asperational values in Japan, S. Korea, Europe, the US and other liberal democracies). No other form of government can say that.

The Gulf nations seem to enjoy prosperity without any democracy. Of course not everyone is happy but life is generally comfortable.

Remove economic prosperity from the democracy package and see what happens.

women, who are more than 50% of the population, are not happy

You don't actually know that. You are superimposing your value system onto theirs and assuming you'd feel a certain way about things. Being an actual Penninsula nation citizen is pretty luxurious because of the oil wealth and the use of third country nationals who work for slave wages. If you more or less buy into the culture that you grew up in (as most people do), and you want an easy life, you can have that in these nations. Also, they look at our conditions in the US with absolute horror-- women culturally expected to show skin, to date around before getting an offer of engagement, rarely have prenuptial agreements (which have existed in Islamic cultures for over a thousand years), having to work, etc. You think they think like you, but they don't.

what country are you from? In the US, if you want to show skin, you show skin. If you are Amish, and don't want to do that, you don't. And everybody has to work, even women in the gulf. They just do different kinds of work.

Look at Iran. The women there are making it very very clear they don't want the life you describe. And very very few women in the US chose that life. The Amish. A few mormons. A few orthodox Jews. But given a choice, most women chose freedom.

The irony is that the U.S. is to blame for the fact women in Iran live the life they live…

The history of human beings is full of irony. What's your point? Because the US has done bad things, has some bad people, you want to live in Iran, without the basic protections of rule of law and without some basic freedoms? Because if you cannot have perfection, you want hell?

No, I am saying that maybe it’s time to either stop meddling in other countries’ affairs, or at least stop pretending that this is done for the sake of democracy…
Democracy is great, I love it. But let’s pretend it can happen everywhere,
Where there is a will, there is a way, etc

NP
This is a good point. The list is long of countries that have become decidedly undemocratic after US meddling and scheming. Or what’s even worse is when US gets played (like how Aung San Suu Kyi who took advantage of the good will of the US for decades and then betrayed the democratic world and proved to be just as brutal as the military junta).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Apologies for the long musings here but it's something I've been thinking about.

I traveled a lot throughout Eastern Europe and Central Asia in my early 20s and in my naive open mind I accepted that Western-style liberal democracy simply wasn't the be-all end-all, I was such a cultural relativist that one could even call me a dictator-apologist, "tankie", or conspiracy theorist a la The Grayzone if anyone is familiar with that podcast.

Then upon becoming a more educated, professional adult, I appreciated the freedom and opportunities that came with the US and the West. I definitely consider myself a political liberal and an economic social-democrat. I despise Trump and his authoritarian tendencies and Putin, Orban, Edrogan, and the like.

Here's the thing, though. Revisiting in my mind the places that I've visited and the people I've known that coastal urban liberals of the US take so much for granted that the rest of the world agrees with us. It's not just conservatives, right wingers, and Trump supporters in the US. It's everywhere else. We assume that everyone should agree that Ukraine are the good guys and Russia are the bad guys, that Israel are the good guys and Palestine are the bad guys, that everyone favors capitalism (whether American-style with less regulations or Northern European-style with more regulations), social welfare, social freedoms and gender equality and LGBTQ rights and separation of church and state. The fact is that day to day, people are looking out for themselves and their families and this is human nature, and that many populations around the world believe that regimes that we consider authoritarian deliver better on bread-and-butter issues. And that the church/mosque/whatever is essential to maintain a moral fabric of society. There are certain ways in which the rural conservatives in Alabama and West Virginia have more in common with many other parts in the world than people in Bethesda, Maryland.

If you look at Alexander Dugin and Eurasianism, I have read his texts many times, and have often thought it is the most abhorrent philosophy in the world, akin to Nazism. I still abhor Duginism, but I realize how it makes sense from a non-Western, socially conservative perspective.
There's a reason why BRICS exist. There's a reason why China is ascendant and the Belt and Road Initiative is working in other parts of Asia - they don't care about China's authoriarian policies or lack of freedom of speech or human rights violations reported... China is building things, America is bombing things - that's what they see. Likewise, Russia has done outreach in Africa and Latin America over thigns like cybersecurity and infrastructure policy. Even countries in Europe, many people are burned out over supporting Ukraine and feel that the EU hasn't done much of them, and don't feel like continuing to feel the pain over oil and gas sanctions against Russia.

You look at other cosmopolitan places in the world and assume that the US is so much better because of our freedoms, but places like Dubai (terribly misogynist!) and Singapore (they execute people who do drugs!) still attract people. Russia and China are not universal villains. The Arab world's wealth and energy sector trump their policies on women and LGBTQ rights. The world is just not woke. The world is multipolar, and we don't have to like it. The more the US fights against multipolarity, the more people will hate us.

Americans assume that the arc of history always bends towards justice, and more social freedoms, but this is simply not true. Culture needs to be left alone to evolve, not imposed by war or corporations.

They are favored in wealthy western countries but Russia and China spend billions to spread misinformation that undermines confidence in them.

The alternative to messy democracies is clinical dictatorships, no free press, no freedom of speech to criticize elected officials and jail worse for any promising opposition.

Umm, no thanks!

Okay. Now, imagine you have your messy democracy. Also, your money is worth nothing, your social safety benefit net has crumbled, you can’t find a job and everything is out of reach financially. Imagine how much you’d care about your freedom if speech then.

You have to be really honest about what you like about your democracies. If it’s economic prosperity, then remind yourself that you can clearly have that without democracy or at least a full range of it. Life in China, UAE, or Russia can be quite comfortable if you have the right skillset.

A good friend of mine is married to a VP of a major Russian bank. They are both UK citizens and have lived there for decades. But right now they have no intention of leaving bc life is just too dang comfortable.

So life is great as long as you’re visiting and the citizen of another country. You can travel around but with the protection of a foreign power.

I'm just saying that people care primarily about meeting their economic needs, and lots and lots of people are perfectly willing to accept reduced freedom and democratic rights in exchange for economic prosperity and solid safety net. Let's be honest, most people aren't that interested in politics. Conversely, if a democracy isn't meeting economic needs, freedom of speech isn't going to keep you warm when you have no job and your money can't buy anything. People assume economic prosperity goes along with liberal democracy but that's not always the case, and a look around the planet shows that many are comfortable without democracy as long as prosperity is there.

I think you have a weird definition for liberal democracy. I cannot think of a nation where the people are happy without it except China. And as I said before, China is still in a honeymoon due to the previous leaders. As Xi takes them further from prosperity, that will change.


As for economics, the vast majority of nations are less well off than the US, and that is why we have a very high immigration rate.

The problem with oligarchies is that absolute power corrupts absolutely, and once the nation falls into the hands of an agressive idiot (say Trump), there is no way out. The nation then falls.

Democracy is messy. Liberal democracy is about repect for truth and the rule of law. No other form of government has those values. (we don't always live up to those values, but at least those are our asperational values in Japan, S. Korea, Europe, the US and other liberal democracies). No other form of government can say that.

The Gulf nations seem to enjoy prosperity without any democracy. Of course not everyone is happy but life is generally comfortable.

Remove economic prosperity from the democracy package and see what happens.

women, who are more than 50% of the population, are not happy

You don't actually know that. You are superimposing your value system onto theirs and assuming you'd feel a certain way about things. Being an actual Penninsula nation citizen is pretty luxurious because of the oil wealth and the use of third country nationals who work for slave wages. If you more or less buy into the culture that you grew up in (as most people do), and you want an easy life, you can have that in these nations. Also, they look at our conditions in the US with absolute horror-- women culturally expected to show skin, to date around before getting an offer of engagement, rarely have prenuptial agreements (which have existed in Islamic cultures for over a thousand years), having to work, etc. You think they think like you, but they don't.

what country are you from? In the US, if you want to show skin, you show skin. If you are Amish, and don't want to do that, you don't. And everybody has to work, even women in the gulf. They just do different kinds of work.

Look at Iran. The women there are making it very very clear they don't want the life you describe. And very very few women in the US chose that life. The Amish. A few mormons. A few orthodox Jews. But given a choice, most women chose freedom.

The irony is that the U.S. is to blame for the fact women in Iran live the life they live…

The history of human beings is full of irony. What's your point? Because the US has done bad things, has some bad people, you want to live in Iran, without the basic protections of rule of law and without some basic freedoms? Because if you cannot have perfection, you want hell?

No, I am saying that maybe it’s time to either stop meddling in other countries’ affairs, or at least stop pretending that this is done for the sake of democracy…
Democracy is great, I love it. But let’s pretend it can happen everywhere,
Where there is a will, there is a way, etc

It’s pretty hilarious that the OP seems to think everybody is messed up except coastal liberals. Right. Everything is going great for places run by coastal liberals. Except maybe their public schools are a disaster, taxes are too high, crime is out of control, sanctuary housing is overflowing, & homeless people are living on sidewalks. Other than those few barely noticeable anomalies, it’s clear sailing.

Two of the up and coming countries while no friend of each other make no bone about oppressing minorities and disdain for democracy in their respective countries. With the Chinese it’s to be expected but the way the Indians have betrayed democratic values is pretty shocking.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ok…..and?

Liberal democracy is a cornerstone of “American Exceptionalism.”

It’s why so many people clamor to come here every year, both legally and illegally. It’s why the annual visa lottery is oversubscribed many dozens of times over the annual allotment.

People come here for our economy, not our democracy.

Dp-… and they are fleeing anti democratic countries. Both. It’s both.

Actually only 6 million people apply for green cards each year. That’s not that many people in a world with almost 8 billion people.

About 8 million American citizens live overseas. Apparently many people who could live here choose not to.

Misrepresentation - just because people are working abroad for private sector/ non profit sector/ international government sector etc does not mean they are not happy at home or do not plan returning there. Many people from all over the world work as expats.

Come on. The vast majority of those 8 million are not expats working overseas. Plenty of Americans choose to live overseas for a myriad of reasons including immigrants who took US citizenship but choose to move back to their home countries. It’s the same in the US - plenty of people come for work but do not intend to stay.

Here is an estimated look (not including ex-military personnel) of American expats by country. Not surprisingly, neighboring Canada and Mexico top the list.


Authoritarian regimes in Middle East or elsewhere is not even in the top ten of places where 8 million US expats live. Often people move for either caring for family
Members who are sick or to retire comfortably in say Mexico or for work. Not because they don’t favor living in liberal democracies.


From world expat web site

Each Country's Number of US Expats

Mexico 799,248
Canada 273,226
United Kingdom 170,771
Puerto Rico 159,515
Germany 152,639
Australia 116,620
Israel 76,794
South Korea 68,050
France 61,668
Japan 58,340

What website? I couldn’t find anything called world expat website. Dual citizens returning to their home country don’t call themselves expats. Expats usually refer to people living in a country who don’t have that citizenship.

According to the State Department, 60,000 Americans live in Egypt. WaPo reported 86,000 live in Lebanon.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/american-expats-by-country

It’s a pretty rubbish website. You can tell from the text. It also says there are 6,000 US expats living in Egypt while the US embassy’s own website estimates 60,000 US citizens. Assume it’s unreliable.

What’s happening?
The U.S. government doesn’t formally track how many Americans leave the U.S. but the most recent estimate puts the figure at nearly nine million. This figure represents a doubling of the 1999 figure, placed at 4.1 million. The number of expats has more than doubled in the last fifteen years — a number growing faster than the rate of the U.S. population itself.
After the 2016 U.S. Presidential election many Americans said that they would leave the country, though no figures exist to show whether a significant up-tick has occurred.
Where are people going?
So where are these American expats going? According to the Association of American Residents Overseas (AARO), US expats can be found in more than 160 countries:
* 40% opt for the Western hemisphere — Canada, Central and South America.
* 26% move to Europe.
* 14% head to East Asia and the Pacific — think Australia and New Zealand as well as China and Japan.
* 14% head to the Middle East.
* 3% travel to Central or South Asia.
* 3% choose Africa.

https://www.aetnainternational.com/en/about-us/explore/living-abroad/culture-lifestyle/where-are-Americans-emigrating-to-and-why.html#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20Association%20of,well%20as%20China%20and%20Japan.


Why have millions of Americans moved to these countries instead?
Analysis by Andrew Van Dam
Staff writer
December 23, 2022 at 6:00 a.m. ES


https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/12/23/american-emigrants/


By almost any metric, Mexico is the top destination for Americans leaving the country. But there’s an unusual reason for that, which becomes apparent when you slice Mexico’s American population by age.
Typically, migrants from America are young adults — think students, Mormon missionaries and Marines — or middle-aged professionals. But American Mexicans are neither: Two-thirds are under 18 — children, in other words.

The vast majority of these young Americans have two Mexican parents, according to a demographic analysis of Mexico’s data by Claudia Masferrer (El Colegio de México), Erin Hamilton (University of California at Davis) and Nicole Denier (University of Alberta). Born in the United States as Mexican immigration peaked, they returned to Mexico with their parents as the U.S. Mexican population crested in 2007 and fell during the Obama and Trump administrations. Many parents returned voluntarily, but research shows about 1 in 6 were deported.

These young American Mexicans — some call them “accidental Americans” because they didn’t choose their American citizenship — tend to be concentrated in border states, particularly Baja California and Chihuahua.
In other top destinations — Canada, the United Kingdom, Germany, Israel, Australia and other advanced economies — most Americans arrive on purpose. Or at least that’s how it looks at first glance. But when you scratch the surface of almost any American emigrant, you often find a series of accidents.

….
Stereotypes of the idly rich or retired expat aside, research by FVAP, the voting agency, finds that the majority of American voters in every world region are also workers. (In most regions, retirees form a large minority, making up more than a quarter of the expat population in Southeast Asia and the Americas.)

There’s no data on what sort of work these Americans do. The Census Bureau’s surveys tracking Americans who return stateside show that they are much, much more likely to be active-duty military than most Americans. They’re also more likely to work in public administration or education, but less likely to work in health, manufacturing, retail or construction.

….

I haven’t met many Americans in Cairo, Damascus or Abu Dhabi who are truly motivated solely by money,” said Blatteis, who has lived in each. “It’s usually people that are pretty academically and intellectually curious. A good chunk of my friends end up marrying people from cultures completely different than their own.”
Caglar Ozden, World Bank lead economist and co-director of its upcoming World Development Report, has learned over two decades studying migration that immigrants defy categories. Whether they are asylum seekers or adventurers, Armenians or Americans, once they get settled, they all start to behave in similar ways: They look to study and work. They build social networks. They learn the language.
“As a scholar of mobility, that’s what I have learned,” Ozden told us, his voice urgent. “Our common traits are way, way bigger and more fundamental than our differences.”

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ok…..and?

Liberal democracy is a cornerstone of “American Exceptionalism.”

It’s why so many people clamor to come here every year, both legally and illegally. It’s why the annual visa lottery is oversubscribed many dozens of times over the annual allotment.

People come here for our economy, not our democracy.

Dp-… and they are fleeing anti democratic countries. Both. It’s both.

Actually only 6 million people apply for green cards each year. That’s not that many people in a world with almost 8 billion people.

About 8 million American citizens live overseas. Apparently many people who could live here choose not to.

Misrepresentation - just because people are working abroad for private sector/ non profit sector/ international government sector etc does not mean they are not happy at home or do not plan returning there. Many people from all over the world work as expats.

Come on. The vast majority of those 8 million are not expats working overseas. Plenty of Americans choose to live overseas for a myriad of reasons including immigrants who took US citizenship but choose to move back to their home countries. It’s the same in the US - plenty of people come for work but do not intend to stay.

Here is an estimated look (not including ex-military personnel) of American expats by country. Not surprisingly, neighboring Canada and Mexico top the list.


Authoritarian regimes in Middle East or elsewhere is not even in the top ten of places where 8 million US expats live. Often people move for either caring for family
Members who are sick or to retire comfortably in say Mexico or for work. Not because they don’t favor living in liberal democracies.


From world expat web site

Each Country's Number of US Expats

Mexico 799,248
Canada 273,226
United Kingdom 170,771
Puerto Rico 159,515
Germany 152,639
Australia 116,620
Israel 76,794
South Korea 68,050
France 61,668
Japan 58,340

So, living in Puerto Rico counts as being an “expat” now?

LOL

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ok…..and?

Liberal democracy is a cornerstone of “American Exceptionalism.”

It’s why so many people clamor to come here every year, both legally and illegally. It’s why the annual visa lottery is oversubscribed many dozens of times over the annual allotment.

People come here for our economy, not our democracy.

Dp-… and they are fleeing anti democratic countries. Both. It’s both.

Actually only 6 million people apply for green cards each year. That’s not that many people in a world with almost 8 billion people.

About 8 million American citizens live overseas. Apparently many people who could live here choose not to.

Misrepresentation - just because people are working abroad for private sector/ non profit sector/ international government sector etc does not mean they are not happy at home or do not plan returning there. Many people from all over the world work as expats.

Come on. The vast majority of those 8 million are not expats working overseas. Plenty of Americans choose to live overseas for a myriad of reasons including immigrants who took US citizenship but choose to move back to their home countries. It’s the same in the US - plenty of people come for work but do not intend to stay.

Here is an estimated look (not including ex-military personnel) of American expats by country. Not surprisingly, neighboring Canada and Mexico top the list.


Authoritarian regimes in Middle East or elsewhere is not even in the top ten of places where 8 million US expats live. Often people move for either caring for family
Members who are sick or to retire comfortably in say Mexico or for work. Not because they don’t favor living in liberal democracies.


From world expat web site

Each Country's Number of US Expats

Mexico 799,248
Canada 273,226
United Kingdom 170,771
Puerto Rico 159,515
Germany 152,639
Australia 116,620
Israel 76,794
South Korea 68,050
France 61,668
Japan 58,340

What website? I couldn’t find anything called world expat website. Dual citizens returning to their home country don’t call themselves expats. Expats usually refer to people living in a country who don’t have that citizenship.

According to the State Department, 60,000 Americans live in Egypt. WaPo reported 86,000 live in Lebanon.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/american-expats-by-country

It’s a pretty rubbish website. You can tell from the text. It also says there are 6,000 US expats living in Egypt while the US embassy’s own website estimates 60,000 US citizens. Assume it’s unreliable.

Anonymous wrote:So it turns out that civil wars are increasing around the world and there are two main risks:

1. Being a partial democracy where opposition is squashed and there is not freedom of non state press.

2. Organizing political Parties around race/ religion/ ethnic identity rather than conservative or liberal policies.

The US Democratic system has been downgraded three times since Trump entered the arena in 2016 due to Russian interference in elections, violent insurrection and ongoing 2020 election outcome lies accompanied with attempts to restrict democratic safeguards. Trump has also reordered GOP around white nationalist values.

US needs to protect and strengthen democracy not undermine it in order to avoid civil unrest and promote freedoms we take for granted.

We need to regulate social media and AI to better control all the misinformation that undermines democracy.

https://www.npr.org/transcripts/1214278131

Unsurprisingly, lack of full democracy is leading risk of civil wars, which have been increasing not decreasing …

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: Difficult Truth to accept:

Democracy is not easy.
It takes work
We aren’t perfect, and our system is not easy, but it’s the best humankind has come up with.


END THREAD

For the US maybe. But the Americans sure don’t practice what they preach when it comes to foreign relations. The post World War Two era has seen Americans kill millions of innocents. I guess it’s okay when you are committing evil to make the world safe for democracy.

I have an idea!
How about Russia and China and Iran and North Korea give democracy a try. I would love to see them do it better. Truly.

Not happening in China at least. People fear chaos. The Chinese are perfectly happy trading a vote for stability and opportunity.

Iran, however, would like a vote. Different culture. Different circumstances. It would be a very a healthy democracy if given a chance.

North Korea is a little hopeless at this moment in time. There is no social culture that would support a democracy.

And Russians prefer tsars and dictators. They fear each other and outsiders. They like authoritarian rule. It makes them feel safe. And the "leader" gives them purpose. The educated elite have already left Russia. What remains would re-elect Putin in a heartbeat.

Persia is a 3500+ year history — a truly civilizational state

It has never had a democracy

You are colored by your perception of Persia due to a sliver of Persian emigres in the us (who even within this group are all not democracy proponents)

The last (only?) wave of Iranian immigrants to the US fled their homeland when the American backed shah fell and those coming here were allies of that illegitimate, oppressive, and murderous regime. Many of those have hands soaked in blood and torture.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: Difficult Truth to accept:

Democracy is not easy.
It takes work
We aren’t perfect, and our system is not easy, but it’s the best humankind has come up with.


END THREAD

For the US maybe. But the Americans sure don’t practice what they preach when it comes to foreign relations. The post World War Two era has seen Americans kill millions of innocents. I guess it’s okay when you are committing evil to make the world safe for democracy.

I have an idea!
How about Russia and China and Iran and North Korea give democracy a try. I would love to see them do it better. Truly.

Not happening in China at least. People fear chaos. The Chinese are perfectly happy trading a vote for stability and opportunity.

Iran, however, would like a vote. Different culture. Different circumstances. It would be a very a healthy democracy if given a chance.

North Korea is a little hopeless at this moment in time. There is no social culture that would support a democracy.

And Russians prefer tsars and dictators. They fear each other and outsiders. They like authoritarian rule. It makes them feel safe. And the "leader" gives them purpose. The educated elite have already left Russia. What remains would re-elect Putin in a heartbeat.

Persia is a 3500+ year history — a truly civilizational state

It has never had a democracy

You are colored by your perception of Persia due to a sliver of Persian emigres in the us (who even within this group are all not democracy proponents)

Are you equating Iran with Persia?