Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We live in the Midwest. Because of a layoff 6 years ago, we make around $90,000 combined.

We are middle class here. We have a 5 bedroom home with a very low interest rate that is almost paid off. We also have lake rights, have a used boat, two older cars.

Because we saved a lot when we were younger, we have what for this area is good savings of around $1M. We also have pensions. Kids did public school and we had prepaid tuition plans. Vacations are mainly in Florida, Michigan, Ohio, the Carolinas, the Caribbean


This is a true middle class life.

No. In the Midwest you are rich. Middle class in the Midwest doesn’t have $1M savings or a boat. Stop it.

Their boat is used, so clearly they are middle class.

The hilarity of having a 5 bedroom house almost paid of, multiple kids sent to college with no student loan debt, vacations to the Caribbean, and a boat as being middle class is why rich people have no sympathy for middle class struggles- they're middle class and everything is great.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's because of inflation, especially in college and housing.

We have a high HHI and about 5 million in investments. Plus our house, which we own. We don't put that in net worth because you have to live somewhere and if we moved, it would probably be to somewhere bigger/more expensive. This all sounds good and it is right? We're mid 40s so we still have more time to build savings. However, about 1 million of that money is earmarked for our 3 kids' college educations and we intend to spend every penny and then some. If they go to grad school, we'll have to pull from other savings.

Then there's our house. It's a nice house and it is worth a lot of money but it would have been considered firmly "middle class" back when we were growing up. It's 4 bedrooms and less than 3k sqft. Our kids go to public school in a "good" school district and we live in a lovely neighborhood.

When it comes to more frivolous spending, we spend money on our kids' activities and vacations. They each do private lessons for their chosen activity (tennis, skiing, gymnastics). We go skiing once or twice a year, we always take one trip to the Caribbean over spring break, one bigger "splurge" trip to Europe in June or July, and one trip to the OBX in August.

I'm not complaining about our lifestyle AT ALL. It just blows my mind because I know how much money we make and I would have considered it "a lot" back when I was growing up. It's just that wages haven't kept pace with inflation. I just checked flights to see what it would cost to fly to St. Martin from NYC in February and it was 8k for 5 people!!!

Basically what I'm saying is, it's crazy that it takes > 500k to live a lifestyle that would have been "upper middle class" in the 80s and 90s with 3 kids.

Yearly trips abroad wasn’t an UMC lifestyle, even in the 90s.

+1 I grew up middle class in the 80s/90s and the UMC and rich kids at my school had the following:

- multiple vacations a year to places like San Diego, NYC, Florida. Sometimes a splurge to Mexico or Jamaica (not yearly). Then when kids were MS/HS age, a couple big trips to Europe. Probably London/Paris once and then maybe a trip to Italy or Germany with some traveling around in HS.

- nice used car at 16, usually a used Saab or Volkswagen

- did not worry about paying for college, whether state flagship or out of state, just not discussed, college was covered

- new clothes and electronics. Stuff like their own en suite bathroom

- public school but the best ones in town, tutoring when they needed it, expensive extra-curriculars if they wanted them

The problem, of course, is that these kids grew up thinking they were middle class because no one explained otherwise, and now they are adults who are millionaires and can give their kids even better than the above but, because they can't take multiple foreign trips a year or front the cost of private college for four kids simultaneously, they STILL think they are "middle class."

It's just a total lack of self-awareness or understanding of what the word is actually like for the average person.

The average person is working class but insists on calling themselves middle class.

You don't understand the word "middle" and "average" are equivalent?

They are not equivalent. In fact, the word “average” has various definitions depending on context (mean vs median for example).

The middle class means the “class” in the “middle”. So let’s say you have wealthy, upper, middle, working, and poor classes. Nowhere is it written that the “average” person must necessarily fall into that “middle” class. That’s a ridiculous assumption.

Let’s say there are monarchs, nobles, and serfs. Which class is in the “middle”? And in which class do you think you would find the “average” person?

You are just making up definitions to words though. You are right "middle class" doesn't mean "average." But you are wrong about literally everything else.

Working class does not mean "people who work." It refers to people who do manual labor or industrial jobs. Generally hourly wage jobs, especially anything involving shift work. Working class jobs, by definition, don't require college degrees. They may require some kind of technical or associates degree, but it must be a degree with few barriers to entry. Thus a medical technician with an associate degree is working class, but an RN with a degree in nursing is not.

So no, people who make 100k at white collar office jobs are not "working class" no matter how much you want them to be.

Upper class refers to people who control capital. Business owners, landlords, corporate C-suite. Also professionals at the highest end of their profession. So law firm partners are upper class, as are surgeons, obviously anyone working in the upper levels of finance. People who control their own fates and are not reliant on a specific employer's mercy. Upper class people hav not only high incomes, they have real wealth (as in assets) and also have high social status, and often political power.

Middle class is people in the middle. The middle class is the widest class and that's why it's divided into upper and lower middle class.

And what is the official source for these definitions? (If you have been keeping up with this thread you would know that there IS NOT an official definition. So we are basically arguing what our individual interpretations are.)

The entire employment landscape has changed. Jobs that may have once been considered middle class jobs are now working class jobs, regardless of what degree a worker has obtained. The proportion of white collar jobs is just going to increase, that doesn’t mean there are more middle class and less working class. It just means white collar is no longer as prestigious as it once was.

You can argue that class boundaries have shifted and you can argue that the nature of being middle class has changed. But the definition of working class has ALWAYS been: manual labor and industrial jobs, especially shift work, hourly wages, no college degree required. I don't need to cite a source other than the dictionary definition and its use in the media which has never changed. That's what it means.

Words can change meanings of time but this one hasn't. You keep repeating in this thread that people who think they are middle class are actually working class, but that is not the opinion of anyone but you. I dare you to find anyone using it the way you are saying it should be used. Anywhere. You can't. That's not what working class means.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My income is highly variable but we're probably in the 400-500K / year. I live in a small townhouse so I sure as hell don't feel rich.

That is a choice. You made a choice. Don’t take words that have meaning from others because you made a personal choice to feel one way despite the facts of the situation.

You are right but that poster isn't wrong. If they were really wealthy, this wouldn't be an issue. They are cost cutting to make this choice happen. That's not what's called wealthy.

DP - Thank you! So many PPs on here obviously don’t understand how many truly wealthy people there are out there, and the astonishing and utterly depressing amount these mostly hidden people have amassed. If they did, they would see how irrelevant their envious preachiness is towards people who feel only comfortable, and not rich…how dare they!…on a six-figure salary that isn’t even a tenth of the average local SFH price. These PPs are really, really not punching up as far as think they are.

There are statistics that guide us and tell us what the numbers really are.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We live in the Midwest. Because of a layoff 6 years ago, we make around $90,000 combined.

We are middle class here. We have a 5 bedroom home with a very low interest rate that is almost paid off. We also have lake rights, have a used boat, two older cars.

Because we saved a lot when we were younger, we have what for this area is good savings of around $1M. We also have pensions. Kids did public school and we had prepaid tuition plans. Vacations are mainly in Florida, Michigan, Ohio, the Carolinas, the Caribbean


This is a true middle class life.

No. In the Midwest you are rich. Middle class in the Midwest doesn’t have $1M savings or a boat. Stop it.

Or trips to the Caribbean- LMAO.

Anonymous wrote:1. We're in the top 1% for our metropolitan area (over $485K). Technically we're rich on paper but I consider us UMC.

2. We're comfortable. Tuition is major $ suck but even with 3 tuition payments we can buy/do what we want within reason without much thought. We still budget each month.

3. No idea the $ amount but at a point where money is nevr a consideration. Several million a year? Don't know just spitballing.

How old are you and what’s your networth? Do yo not consider yourself rich because of that?

Anonymous wrote:We live in the Midwest. Because of a layoff 6 years ago, we make around $90,000 combined.

We are middle class here. We have a 5 bedroom home with a very low interest rate that is almost paid off. We also have lake rights, have a used boat, two older cars.

Because we saved a lot when we were younger, we have what for this area is good savings of around $1M. We also have pensions. Kids did public school and we had prepaid tuition plans. Vacations are mainly in Florida, Michigan, Ohio, the Carolinas, the Caribbean


This is a true middle class life.

No. In the Midwest you are rich. Middle class in the Midwest doesn’t have $1M savings or a boat. Stop it.

We live in the Midwest. Because of a layoff 6 years ago, we make around $90,000 combined.

We are middle class here. We have a 5 bedroom home with a very low interest rate that is almost paid off. We also have lake rights, have a used boat, two older cars.

Because we saved a lot when we were younger, we have what for this area is good savings of around $1M. We also have pensions. Kids did public school and we had prepaid tuition plans. Vacations are mainly in Florida, Michigan, Ohio, the Carolinas, the Caribbean


This is a true middle class life.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's because of inflation, especially in college and housing.

We have a high HHI and about 5 million in investments. Plus our house, which we own. We don't put that in net worth because you have to live somewhere and if we moved, it would probably be to somewhere bigger/more expensive. This all sounds good and it is right? We're mid 40s so we still have more time to build savings. However, about 1 million of that money is earmarked for our 3 kids' college educations and we intend to spend every penny and then some. If they go to grad school, we'll have to pull from other savings.

Then there's our house. It's a nice house and it is worth a lot of money but it would have been considered firmly "middle class" back when we were growing up. It's 4 bedrooms and less than 3k sqft. Our kids go to public school in a "good" school district and we live in a lovely neighborhood.

When it comes to more frivolous spending, we spend money on our kids' activities and vacations. They each do private lessons for their chosen activity (tennis, skiing, gymnastics). We go skiing once or twice a year, we always take one trip to the Caribbean over spring break, one bigger "splurge" trip to Europe in June or July, and one trip to the OBX in August.

I'm not complaining about our lifestyle AT ALL. It just blows my mind because I know how much money we make and I would have considered it "a lot" back when I was growing up. It's just that wages haven't kept pace with inflation. I just checked flights to see what it would cost to fly to St. Martin from NYC in February and it was 8k for 5 people!!!

Basically what I'm saying is, it's crazy that it takes > 500k to live a lifestyle that would have been "upper middle class" in the 80s and 90s with 3 kids.

Yearly trips abroad wasn’t an UMC lifestyle, even in the 90s.

+1 I grew up middle class in the 80s/90s and the UMC and rich kids at my school had the following:

- multiple vacations a year to places like San Diego, NYC, Florida. Sometimes a splurge to Mexico or Jamaica (not yearly). Then when kids were MS/HS age, a couple big trips to Europe. Probably London/Paris once and then maybe a trip to Italy or Germany with some traveling around in HS.

- nice used car at 16, usually a used Saab or Volkswagen

- did not worry about paying for college, whether state flagship or out of state, just not discussed, college was covered

- new clothes and electronics. Stuff like their own en suite bathroom

- public school but the best ones in town, tutoring when they needed it, expensive extra-curriculars if they wanted them

The problem, of course, is that these kids grew up thinking they were middle class because no one explained otherwise, and now they are adults who are millionaires and can give their kids even better than the above but, because they can't take multiple foreign trips a year or front the cost of private college for four kids simultaneously, they STILL think they are "middle class."

It's just a total lack of self-awareness or understanding of what the word is actually like for the average person.

The average person is working class but insists on calling themselves middle class.

You don't understand the word "middle" and "average" are equivalent?

They are not equivalent. In fact, the word “average” has various definitions depending on context (mean vs median for example).

The middle class means the “class” in the “middle”. So let’s say you have wealthy, upper, middle, working, and poor classes. Nowhere is it written that the “average” person must necessarily fall into that “middle” class. That’s a ridiculous assumption.

Let’s say there are monarchs, nobles, and serfs. Which class is in the “middle”? And in which class do you think you would find the “average” person?

You are just making up definitions to words though. You are right "middle class" doesn't mean "average." But you are wrong about literally everything else.

Working class does not mean "people who work." It refers to people who do manual labor or industrial jobs. Generally hourly wage jobs, especially anything involving shift work. Working class jobs, by definition, don't require college degrees. They may require some kind of technical or associates degree, but it must be a degree with few barriers to entry. Thus a medical technician with an associate degree is working class, but an RN with a degree in nursing is not.

So no, people who make 100k at white collar office jobs are not "working class" no matter how much you want them to be.

Upper class refers to people who control capital. Business owners, landlords, corporate C-suite. Also professionals at the highest end of their profession. So law firm partners are upper class, as are surgeons, obviously anyone working in the upper levels of finance. People who control their own fates and are not reliant on a specific employer's mercy. Upper class people hav not only high incomes, they have real wealth (as in assets) and also have high social status, and often political power.

Middle class is people in the middle. The middle class is the widest class and that's why it's divided into upper and lower middle class.

And what is the official source for these definitions? (If you have been keeping up with this thread you would know that there IS NOT an official definition. So we are basically arguing what our individual interpretations are.)

The entire employment landscape has changed. Jobs that may have once been considered middle class jobs are now working class jobs, regardless of what degree a worker has obtained. The proportion of white collar jobs is just going to increase, that doesn’t mean there are more middle class and less working class. It just means white collar is no longer as prestigious as it once was.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's because of inflation, especially in college and housing.

We have a high HHI and about 5 million in investments. Plus our house, which we own. We don't put that in net worth because you have to live somewhere and if we moved, it would probably be to somewhere bigger/more expensive. This all sounds good and it is right? We're mid 40s so we still have more time to build savings. However, about 1 million of that money is earmarked for our 3 kids' college educations and we intend to spend every penny and then some. If they go to grad school, we'll have to pull from other savings.

Then there's our house. It's a nice house and it is worth a lot of money but it would have been considered firmly "middle class" back when we were growing up. It's 4 bedrooms and less than 3k sqft. Our kids go to public school in a "good" school district and we live in a lovely neighborhood.

When it comes to more frivolous spending, we spend money on our kids' activities and vacations. They each do private lessons for their chosen activity (tennis, skiing, gymnastics). We go skiing once or twice a year, we always take one trip to the Caribbean over spring break, one bigger "splurge" trip to Europe in June or July, and one trip to the OBX in August.

I'm not complaining about our lifestyle AT ALL. It just blows my mind because I know how much money we make and I would have considered it "a lot" back when I was growing up. It's just that wages haven't kept pace with inflation. I just checked flights to see what it would cost to fly to St. Martin from NYC in February and it was 8k for 5 people!!!

Basically what I'm saying is, it's crazy that it takes > 500k to live a lifestyle that would have been "upper middle class" in the 80s and 90s with 3 kids.

Yearly trips abroad wasn’t an UMC lifestyle, even in the 90s.

+1 I grew up middle class in the 80s/90s and the UMC and rich kids at my school had the following:

- multiple vacations a year to places like San Diego, NYC, Florida. Sometimes a splurge to Mexico or Jamaica (not yearly). Then when kids were MS/HS age, a couple big trips to Europe. Probably London/Paris once and then maybe a trip to Italy or Germany with some traveling around in HS.

- nice used car at 16, usually a used Saab or Volkswagen

- did not worry about paying for college, whether state flagship or out of state, just not discussed, college was covered

- new clothes and electronics. Stuff like their own en suite bathroom

- public school but the best ones in town, tutoring when they needed it, expensive extra-curriculars if they wanted them

The problem, of course, is that these kids grew up thinking they were middle class because no one explained otherwise, and now they are adults who are millionaires and can give their kids even better than the above but, because they can't take multiple foreign trips a year or front the cost of private college for four kids simultaneously, they STILL think they are "middle class."

It's just a total lack of self-awareness or understanding of what the word is actually like for the average person.

The average person is working class but insists on calling themselves middle class.

You don't understand the word "middle" and "average" are equivalent?

They are not equivalent. In fact, the word “average” has various definitions depending on context (mean vs median for example).

The middle class means the “class” in the “middle”. So let’s say you have wealthy, upper, middle, working, and poor classes. Nowhere is it written that the “average” person must necessarily fall into that “middle” class. That’s a ridiculous assumption.

Let’s say there are monarchs, nobles, and serfs. Which class is in the “middle”? And in which class do you think you would find the “average” person?

You are just making up definitions to words though. You are right "middle class" doesn't mean "average." But you are wrong about literally everything else.

Working class does not mean "people who work." It refers to people who do manual labor or industrial jobs. Generally hourly wage jobs, especially anything involving shift work. Working class jobs, by definition, don't require college degrees. They may require some kind of technical or associates degree, but it must be a degree with few barriers to entry. Thus a medical technician with an associate degree is working class, but an RN with a degree in nursing is not.

So no, people who make 100k at white collar office jobs are not "working class" no matter how much you want them to be.

Upper class refers to people who control capital. Business owners, landlords, corporate C-suite. Also professionals at the highest end of their profession. So law firm partners are upper class, as are surgeons, obviously anyone working in the upper levels of finance. People who control their own fates and are not reliant on a specific employer's mercy. Upper class people hav not only high incomes, they have real wealth (as in assets) and also have high social status, and often political power.

Middle class is people in the middle. The middle class is the widest class and that's why it's divided into upper and lower middle class.

Anonymous wrote:Each kid's undergrad tuition and living costs $250K, if they go to grad or professional schools, another $250k per head. K-12 cost is also $250k. Overall, each kid costs a million to UMC parents. There are no freebies or subsidies.

Our kids go to private school, so with inflation, we are probably looking at $1million per kid before they even hit college!

We make a lot but live in Manhattan where half goes to taxes and the other half to housing + schools, so I feel pretty middle class day to day although I am aware that we are well off. A lot of our peers and college friends are in lucrative fields and very successful, and relative to them and their lifestyles, we are middle class at best.

A retiree with only $1M (technically a millionaire) is definitely middle class.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My income is highly variable but we're probably in the 400-500K / year. I live in a small townhouse so I sure as hell don't feel rich.

That is a choice. You made a choice. Don’t take words that have meaning from others because you made a personal choice to feel one way despite the facts of the situation.

You are right but that poster isn't wrong. If they were really wealthy, this wouldn't be an issue. They are cost cutting to make this choice happen. That's not what's called wealthy.

DP - Thank you! So many PPs on here obviously don’t understand how many truly wealthy people there are out there, and the astonishing and utterly depressing amount these mostly hidden people have amassed. If they did, they would see how irrelevant their envious preachiness is towards people who feel only comfortable, and not rich…how dare they!…on a six-figure salary that isn’t even a tenth of the average local SFH price. These PPs are really, really not punching up as far as think they are.

Honestly. I feel rich, haha. And I'm sure there are people who have WAY more scoffing at me, but whatever. I do. I feel rich.

It's probably because I've gone through quite a large HHI income change in my lifetime. As a kid, I remember lay-away, seeing my mom cry about money, and knowing the exact date of my her next paycheck. But we still had more than a lot of other families. And, like many posters, I also grew up on the 80s-90s Midwest: it was a unique cultural place, haha. Most of my high school classmates never took a vacation out of the state, and even the "rich families" still drove a Chrysler mini-van and went to Disney World twice in fifteen years.

I was unmarried in DC for most of my 20s, working in nonprofit jobs that didn't pay more than $65K. I had roommates, carefully budgeted, and definitely felt like it was a splurge to get a massage or a pedicure. But it was still okay.

Fast forward to my late 30s: our HHI is $650K. We're not Logan Roy on "Succession"-rich, but so what? We have a house that has almost doubled in worth since we bought it. Retirement accounts look great. We can comfortably save for kids' college and retirement.

Every day, I think about all the stress I don't have because of the money. When things break, I don't panic the way my parents did. I'm annoyed, but I don't worry. I don't think twice about buying a "dry clean only" piece of clothing. I buy the groceries I want (yes, even the fancy blue tortilla chips) and I even go to Whole Foods, haha (THAT is my Nebraska talking: feeling rich for going to Whole Foods). When my neck has been hurting for a couple weeks, I schedule a massage. If I really want red lipstick the holiday party season, I go to Sephora and not CVS. I get to look like a "good person" because I can pony up for charity now in ways I never could in the first decades of my life.

It's amazing. So yeah, I feel rich. I know I'm so damn lucky.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These questions are so fact-specific. We earn a lot of money but my spouse insists on providing for extended family members, so we never feel rich, even though most of you would balk at that because our income is so high.

No one cares about your feelings. If you have a high income and use it to support family, that is a choice. The fact you have that choice makes you well off. Find some empathy.

Literally the OPs questions were, do you *feel* MC/UMC whatever, and how much would it take for you to “*feel* rich”. Not “how much should it take for you to understand that you are statistically UMC”. The fact that people define what “rich” is based on their background and surroundings, and the bracket they *feel* like they’re in is environmentally and socially-driven and divorced from the actual numbers, is precisely what makes this an interesting discussion.