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Anonymous wrote:Cringe. Imagine the thousands of years of couples that got together and sacrificed to ultimately get you into this world (including your parents) only to have that genetic line come to an abrupt halt because you think you know better because you went to university and read Twitter. Sad world to live in.

Or only having a daughter who marries and rids the family name! The horror!!!

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Anonymous wrote:I'm a millennial and chalked up the lack of kids to being in a high-achieving cohort. Maybe half of us have kids? The other half aren't married. I don't many that are childless by choice (as far as I know). My friends both gay and straight that are married by in large have kids usually 2-3. But I myself hit total unexplained secondary infertility at 35 so have 2 kids but am unlikely to have 3.

My husband is in the military and in his friend group we only know 2 childless by choice couples. Most men have 1 if not 2 sets of kids by different women thanks to the damage the many years in war did on their personal lives.

It’s funny how individual the definition of “achievement” is because if you’re in your 30s unmarried and/or married and childless for a reason other than infertility I would define this as a massive life failure. As would most of my “cohort” (all who have good high paying jobs).

Birthing babies is not an "achievement".

It's the most important achievement. Passing on one's genes is the reason for being.

No that's bottom of the barrel with respect to "achievements". Leaving a mark on the world is an achievement.

DP. Raising two really good, kind, responsible people is my mark on the world. It’s the most important thing I personally will ever achieve.

+1 and I'm a working mom. Even my work is probably more meaningful as a means of providing for my kids, or to show them the value of hard work and perseverance, than in terms of the actual impact my work has on the world at large. Most jobs just really are not that meaningful. If you have a very meaningful job, more power to you, but most people I know (men and women) feel the same.

Even my friends without kids would not tell you their jobs are true achievements. Some have really invested a lot of themselves in volunteer work, some are just very invested in their friendships and other relationships (including their friends' kids). I have a couple who are clearly very depressed because they have hit middle age and realized their jobs aren't that meaningful (even in careers where you'd think there was more built-in meaning, like medicine, teaching, and diplomacy) and are struggling with never having kids and not really knowing where to go from there. I think it's tough. They'll figure it out and find some way to build meaning in, but having kids sure is an easy shortcut to that kind of fulfillment.

This is true of my female friends, but less true of a few men I know who have remained childless into middle age. Women in most cultures are more conditioned than men to derive meaning and purpose from having children, which is important because women typically make the most sacrifices.

PP here and I know two men who are mid-to-late 40s, one is divorced and one is never married. Neither had kids, and I know they are both kind of devastated about it. One of them has a very high flying career in a really elite field, the kind of job that really impresses other people and where he has genuine influence over things most people would deem important. The other works in medicine. I think they both feel they just kind of never had a chance to have kids.

That doesn't mean that if they'd had kids, they wouldn't have expected their wives to make the bigger sacrifice. In fact in both case I feel confident they would have, and that this might have played a role in them not finding partners. Which actually speaks directly to this thread -- I think more and more women are either looking at their dating pool OR looking at their male partners and realizing that having kids with these guys would help fulfill the men while the woman does most of the work.

And as someone who is married with a a kid... they are not wrong. Men do want kids. But it's women who have to make it happen, and increasingly, they choose not to, and for good reasons.

Late 40s ... they both may still end up marrying someone who is 28-35 and wants to have kids and stay home with them; again, the injustices.

Yea. Men in their late 40s are actually a catch with their established careers. My friend had his first at 50 and his wife is 38. He has lived a great life and will continue to do so while his wife does most of the childcare. Women and men are not the same when it comes having children.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Cringe. Imagine the thousands of years of couples that got together and sacrificed to ultimately get you into this world (including your parents) only to have that genetic line come to an abrupt halt because you think you know better because you went to university and read Twitter. Sad world to live in.

Or only having a daughter who marries and rids the family name! The horror!!!

Anonymous wrote:Cringe. Imagine the thousands of years of couples that got together and sacrificed to ultimately get you into this world (including your parents) only to have that genetic line come to an abrupt halt because you think you know better because you went to university and read Twitter. Sad world to live in.

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Anonymous wrote:I don’t want to derail this thread so let’s please not get into Ali Wong and her marriage, but I just wanted to mention that I started thinking seriously about this after watching I think it was her Baby Cobra set? Where she talks about wanting to be a SAHM mom because she thinks being a working woman is a scam. The current configuration where women continue to be expected to be beautiful by misogynistic standards, sexually available at all times, do all the childrearing, all of the mental load of running a household, AND get a degree and work full time is NOT what feminism fought for or is about. It is a scam.

Dating in my late twenties was illuminating to me because I found that misogyny and sexism were as prevalent as ever but look different now. Highly educated and high achieving Millennial dudes all wanted a woman who earned more than them and wanted to freeze her eggs and wait until her late 30s to have kids so they could maximize their own time to travel and party and focus solely on themselves. They openly looked down on women who wanted to have children or who didn’t prioritize high earning careers. They claimed it’s because they were feminists but really they just wanted women to take care of them and wanted zero family responsibilities. They also had zero regard for how hard it is for women physically and emotionally to battle infertility in their late 30s and 40s in order to buy their manchildren husbands a few extra years of party time.

This is one take on it.

I experienced something different. My husband values my career and success. He doesn’t think I need to give it up because I had children. He thinks women are capable and wanted a spouse or girlfriend who is his equal intellectually. He also thinks parenting is hard work and that an office job is easier than watching young kids all day. I can’t imagine dating in the 50s or even 60s where marriage automatically meant giving up a career and staying home with kids.

I assume you don’t have kids yet and may change your tune after they arrive. Working and an income = freedom.

DP: We were of the same mindset; but then baby #1 came early when were in our mid-30s and we decided one of us would stay home. Then Baby #2 had medical issues, and the choice become permanent. No regrets about that either. The real key is to be flexible with life, because you never really know what's coming, or not. The good part is that we do have choices if we are able to manage the financial side of it.

Working and income do not always give you freedom, by the way. That's the lesson of Golden Handcuffs. And on the flip side, there is also freedom in choosing to live with less or within whatever means you have.

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Anonymous wrote:I see this a lot on various social media sites: TikTok, Reddit, etc.

I have 3 kids and I’m 41 so an “elderly millennial.” And I started in my late twenties do my kids are teens now. But I really don’t think my life has been that hard or that bad? It’s not like every second has been stress free but overall the joys of kids vastly outweigh the cons imho.

I don’t get why millennials seem to think it is unrelenting misery. Kids add a lot to your life: love, joy, laughter, purpose, meaning, connection, etc.

OK but tell us more. What is your HHi? Is your husband helpful? Did you WOHM? Any kids special needs? Do you have a support system nearby? Did you have a nanny or other home based help? Do you live in a high COL area? What would happen if your husband divorced you, would you still have a good quality of life?

Anonymous wrote:Cringe. Imagine the thousands of years of couples that got together and sacrificed to ultimately get you into this world (including your parents) only to have that genetic line come to an abrupt halt because you think you know better because you went to university and read Twitter. Sad world to live in.

Anonymous wrote:I see this a lot on various social media sites: TikTok, Reddit, etc.

I have 3 kids and I’m 41 so an “elderly millennial.” And I started in my late twenties do my kids are teens now. But I really don’t think my life has been that hard or that bad? It’s not like every second has been stress free but overall the joys of kids vastly outweigh the cons imho.

I don’t get why millennials seem to think it is unrelenting misery. Kids add a lot to your life: love, joy, laughter, purpose, meaning, connection, etc.

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Anonymous wrote:I'm a millennial and chalked up the lack of kids to being in a high-achieving cohort. Maybe half of us have kids? The other half aren't married. I don't many that are childless by choice (as far as I know). My friends both gay and straight that are married by in large have kids usually 2-3. But I myself hit total unexplained secondary infertility at 35 so have 2 kids but am unlikely to have 3.

My husband is in the military and in his friend group we only know 2 childless by choice couples. Most men have 1 if not 2 sets of kids by different women thanks to the damage the many years in war did on their personal lives.

It’s funny how individual the definition of “achievement” is because if you’re in your 30s unmarried and/or married and childless for a reason other than infertility I would define this as a massive life failure. As would most of my “cohort” (all who have good high paying jobs).

Birthing babies is not an "achievement".

It's the most important achievement. Passing on one's genes is the reason for being.

No that's bottom of the barrel with respect to "achievements". Leaving a mark on the world is an achievement.

DP. Raising two really good, kind, responsible people is my mark on the world. It’s the most important thing I personally will ever achieve.

+1 and I'm a working mom. Even my work is probably more meaningful as a means of providing for my kids, or to show them the value of hard work and perseverance, than in terms of the actual impact my work has on the world at large. Most jobs just really are not that meaningful. If you have a very meaningful job, more power to you, but most people I know (men and women) feel the same.

Even my friends without kids would not tell you their jobs are true achievements. Some have really invested a lot of themselves in volunteer work, some are just very invested in their friendships and other relationships (including their friends' kids). I have a couple who are clearly very depressed because they have hit middle age and realized their jobs aren't that meaningful (even in careers where you'd think there was more built-in meaning, like medicine, teaching, and diplomacy) and are struggling with never having kids and not really knowing where to go from there. I think it's tough. They'll figure it out and find some way to build meaning in, but having kids sure is an easy shortcut to that kind of fulfillment.

This is true of my female friends, but less true of a few men I know who have remained childless into middle age. Women in most cultures are more conditioned than men to derive meaning and purpose from having children, which is important because women typically make the most sacrifices.

PP here and I know two men who are mid-to-late 40s, one is divorced and one is never married. Neither had kids, and I know they are both kind of devastated about it. One of them has a very high flying career in a really elite field, the kind of job that really impresses other people and where he has genuine influence over things most people would deem important. The other works in medicine. I think they both feel they just kind of never had a chance to have kids.

That doesn't mean that if they'd had kids, they wouldn't have expected their wives to make the bigger sacrifice. In fact in both case I feel confident they would have, and that this might have played a role in them not finding partners. Which actually speaks directly to this thread -- I think more and more women are either looking at their dating pool OR looking at their male partners and realizing that having kids with these guys would help fulfill the men while the woman does most of the work.

And as someone who is married with a a kid... they are not wrong. Men do want kids. But it's women who have to make it happen, and increasingly, they choose not to, and for good reasons.

Late 40s ... they both may still end up marrying someone who is 28-35 and wants to have kids and stay home with them; again, the injustices.

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Anonymous wrote:I'm a millennial and chalked up the lack of kids to being in a high-achieving cohort. Maybe half of us have kids? The other half aren't married. I don't many that are childless by choice (as far as I know). My friends both gay and straight that are married by in large have kids usually 2-3. But I myself hit total unexplained secondary infertility at 35 so have 2 kids but am unlikely to have 3.

My husband is in the military and in his friend group we only know 2 childless by choice couples. Most men have 1 if not 2 sets of kids by different women thanks to the damage the many years in war did on their personal lives.

It’s funny how individual the definition of “achievement” is because if you’re in your 30s unmarried and/or married and childless for a reason other than infertility I would define this as a massive life failure. As would most of my “cohort” (all who have good high paying jobs).

Birthing babies is not an "achievement".

It's the most important achievement. Passing on one's genes is the reason for being.

No that's bottom of the barrel with respect to "achievements". Leaving a mark on the world is an achievement.

DP. Raising two really good, kind, responsible people is my mark on the world. It’s the most important thing I personally will ever achieve.

A mark that almost nobody knows about or cares about except you and a handful of friends/family is not an achievement.

It's just a selfish indulgent act. Nobody wants you to have kids except yourself.

You don’t make any sense. If no one has kids, there’ll be no one to make all the “real” achievements that apparently really matter. Achievements are human endeavors.

So your saying if your child achieves something you are taking the credit because you birthed them.

The idea that you birthed a child is an achievement is silly and it really cheapens real accomplishments.

Taking the credit? You have such a warped view, I pity you. But, I’m curious, what are some of examples of “real accomplishments”?

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Anonymous wrote:I'm a millennial and chalked up the lack of kids to being in a high-achieving cohort. Maybe half of us have kids? The other half aren't married. I don't many that are childless by choice (as far as I know). My friends both gay and straight that are married by in large have kids usually 2-3. But I myself hit total unexplained secondary infertility at 35 so have 2 kids but am unlikely to have 3.

My husband is in the military and in his friend group we only know 2 childless by choice couples. Most men have 1 if not 2 sets of kids by different women thanks to the damage the many years in war did on their personal lives.

It’s funny how individual the definition of “achievement” is because if you’re in your 30s unmarried and/or married and childless for a reason other than infertility I would define this as a massive life failure. As would most of my “cohort” (all who have good high paying jobs).

Birthing babies is not an "achievement".

It's the most important achievement. Passing on one's genes is the reason for being.

No that's bottom of the barrel with respect to "achievements". Leaving a mark on the world is an achievement.

DP. Raising two really good, kind, responsible people is my mark on the world. It’s the most important thing I personally will ever achieve.

A mark that almost nobody knows about or cares about except you and a handful of friends/family is not an achievement.

It's just a selfish indulgent act. Nobody wants you to have kids except yourself.

This is the dumbest take. We should all want more people to raise good, kind people who will contribute positively to society. If nobody does that, society will collapse. Maybe you don’t care if that happens because you’ll be dead by the time it does—but that view is what’s actually selfish.

But we don't people raise kids to go to Ivy's and then crash the economy shorting stocks or become lawyers who are the dregs of society.

You might think you are raising great kids but you don't really know and there is not guarantee. Plus, the amount of resources kids are using up it's not good for the earth.

You have a very sad view of the world. I'm sorry you apparently only know crappy humans.