Here's a strategy to think about.

Some engineering colleges will only accept two AP courses for credit. APUSH and APGov normally are the two that satisfy the base History credit.

Why not:
9/10-AP Gov and H WH
11/12-AP USH

By 11th grade, the student is more mature and capable of handling higher reading workloads. If you're worried the student doesn't like History that much, you can ask to push APUSH to 12th grade, where the student's workload is most likely lower so it doesn't count against GPA when applying to colleges.

Anyone see issues with this?

I would be more concerned in understanding why she thinks kids in honors won't go to college. Is she even interested in having a deeper understanding of US history or is it a matter of image?

Anonymous wrote:It's getting crazy. Kids who by all reasonable metrics are not ready for APUSH in 9th grade are pushing to join because "that's what smart kids do".

The lack of pre-AP standardized assessments in social studies is no doubt part of the problem. In math, kids know what they know and don't know relatively clearly.

+1. The middle school curriculum in English and social studies is not challenging and not preparing kids to take AP classes in 9th grade. I'd argue that the lack of a strong English curriculum is probably the biggest challenge for kids trying to take apush or ap gov since they are reading and writing heavy.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's getting crazy. Kids who by all reasonable metrics are not ready for APUSH in 9th grade are pushing to join because "that's what smart kids do".

The lack of pre-AP standardized assessments in social studies is no doubt part of the problem. In math, kids know what they know and don't know relatively clearly.

Spot on. Also to the tutor above, I have an ADHD kid with at 504 plan. He is very smart but struggles with executive function. I did not put him in APUSH as a freshman due what I heard was the workload. He learned plenty in his Honors US History class and did not require a tutor to help him with all the assignments like I saw with many other kids. In fact maybe he learned more . Of course everyone is welcome to do what they want but I think many parents are looking ahead and thinking that their kids need to be in every single hard class to get into a "top" college. My kid will not be gunning for these schools most likely and that is OK.

It’s completely fine as long as the student isn’t applying to competitive colleges.

Anonymous wrote:It's getting crazy. Kids who by all reasonable metrics are not ready for APUSH in 9th grade are pushing to join because "that's what smart kids do".

The lack of pre-AP standardized assessments in social studies is no doubt part of the problem. In math, kids know what they know and don't know relatively clearly.

Spot on. Also to the tutor above, I have an ADHD kid with at 504 plan. He is very smart but struggles with executive function. I did not put him in APUSH as a freshman due what I heard was the workload. He learned plenty in his Honors US History class and did not require a tutor to help him with all the assignments like I saw with many other kids. In fact maybe he learned more . Of course everyone is welcome to do what they want but I think many parents are looking ahead and thinking that their kids need to be in every single hard class to get into a "top" college. My kid will not be gunning for these schools most likely and that is OK.

Kids who want to get into competitive colleges need to. With grade inflation and test optional, colleges are relying heavily on course selection.

It's getting crazy. Kids who by all reasonable metrics are not ready for APUSH in 9th grade are pushing to join because "that's what smart kids do".

The lack of pre-AP standardized assessments in social studies is no doubt part of the problem. In math, kids know what they know and don't know relatively clearly.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I teach AP Social Studies courses, including AP Govt. Several years ago, the Collegeboard put out a statement that they do not recommend that 9th grade students take AP courses. However, I hate to admit this, but when my kid goes to HS next year I will insist that he enroll in and many APs offered at each grade level, which including 9th. He is a smart but not overly diligent student and I think it’s good to be in the advanced courses whenever possible. Better cohort, better teachers, GPA boost, better curriculum, etc.

That was many years ago, before College Board remembered that they like money, and started inventing lots of new APs for 9th
grade and non-university-level courses.

https://blog.collegeboard.org/popular-ap-courses-grade

What's your plan if your non-overly-diligent student can't keep up with the curriculum and gets a B or C in the AP class instead of an A in honors?

My neighbors hired a tutors for their 9th grader who couldn’t keep up in APUSH and honors Alg 2. Odd to me the parents that push their kids into advanced classes they can’t handle.

Having a tutor does not necessarily mean that the content is too hard. Sometimes the teaching style is not a match for the student, or they just need personal attention that they can't get in a 2500 person school with 31 students in class.

Yes it does, unless you are dealing with a LD. Honors and AP by their very nature are meant to be quicker or more in depth(likely both) and require more independent work to master the material. If you constantly need a tutor you are outside of your current capability. It doesn’t mean that will be true for every subject or forever, but it does mean that for right now.

Who cares if a kid needs a tutor to master the material? The point of school is to learn. Knowledge and ability are not fixed. There's no prize for breezing through a class.

Because the majority of students and families can not afford tutors.

Just like they can’t afford to retake standardized tests 5-6 times until they get a better number.

Just like most can’t afford college counselors, tons of college applications, and the ability to visit colleges.

Do you not see how this is an issue?

It’s not a level playing field. If your kid can’t do it with just the teacher teaching him and needs a $70/hr tutor to baby step it for them, it’s an unfair advantage and your kid wasn’t ready for the class but still pulled out a good grade because he was spoon fed while others weren’t.

Life is not fair. Meritocracy is a myth. The point of school is to learn, not to view other people’s kids as competitors.

But your kid isn’t learning in school - same as the rest of the class. But yours is getting expensive help OUTSIDE of school, so it can look like he is smart.

We can all wish things were equal in terms of money but there are lots of ways kids get outside help without paying money.

Many of our parent friends are scientists, engineers and programmers and at a dinner we had recently they were talking about how much time they are spending helping their kid with math. Hours each day. Hours! This was in relation to complaining about how poor the curriculum and teaching is at our children's schools. Am I supposed to feel angry or like life is unfair because I work in a non-science, non-math field and my ability to help my kids ended with elementary math?

You lost me at hours each day

1. Parents, especially science/medical parents don't have hours every day to sit down and tutor one of how many children they have
2. Students don't have hours of free time after school to study one subject
3. Even if this is the case, none of these kids spending "hours" a day so I am gusting 20+ hours minimum a week on ONE subject - should really be in that subject, now should they?

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I teach AP Social Studies courses, including AP Govt. Several years ago, the Collegeboard put out a statement that they do not recommend that 9th grade students take AP courses. However, I hate to admit this, but when my kid goes to HS next year I will insist that he enroll in and many APs offered at each grade level, which including 9th. He is a smart but not overly diligent student and I think it’s good to be in the advanced courses whenever possible. Better cohort, better teachers, GPA boost, better curriculum, etc.

That was many years ago, before College Board remembered that they like money, and started inventing lots of new APs for 9th
grade and non-university-level courses.

https://blog.collegeboard.org/popular-ap-courses-grade

What's your plan if your non-overly-diligent student can't keep up with the curriculum and gets a B or C in the AP class instead of an A in honors?

My neighbors hired a tutors for their 9th grader who couldn’t keep up in APUSH and honors Alg 2. Odd to me the parents that push their kids into advanced classes they can’t handle.

Having a tutor does not necessarily mean that the content is too hard. Sometimes the teaching style is not a match for the student, or they just need personal attention that they can't get in a 2500 person school with 31 students in class.

Yes it does, unless you are dealing with a LD. Honors and AP by their very nature are meant to be quicker or more in depth(likely both) and require more independent work to master the material. If you constantly need a tutor you are outside of your current capability. It doesn’t mean that will be true for every subject or forever, but it does mean that for right now.

Who cares if a kid needs a tutor to master the material? The point of school is to learn. Knowledge and ability are not fixed. There's no prize for breezing through a class.

Because the majority of students and families can not afford tutors.

Just like they can’t afford to retake standardized tests 5-6 times until they get a better number.

Just like most can’t afford college counselors, tons of college applications, and the ability to visit colleges.

Do you not see how this is an issue?

It’s not a level playing field. If your kid can’t do it with just the teacher teaching him and needs a $70/hr tutor to baby step it for them, it’s an unfair advantage and your kid wasn’t ready for the class but still pulled out a good grade because he was spoon fed while others weren’t.

Life is not fair. Meritocracy is a myth. The point of school is to learn, not to view other people’s kids as competitors.

But your kid isn’t learning in school - same as the rest of the class. But yours is getting expensive help OUTSIDE of school, so it can look like he is smart.

We can all wish things were equal in terms of money but there are lots of ways kids get outside help without paying money.

Many of our parent friends are scientists, engineers and programmers and at a dinner we had recently they were talking about how much time they are spending helping their kid with math. Hours each day. Hours! This was in relation to complaining about how poor the curriculum and teaching is at our children's schools. Am I supposed to feel angry or like life is unfair because I work in a non-science, non-math field and my ability to help my kids ended with elementary math?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I teach AP Social Studies courses, including AP Govt. Several years ago, the Collegeboard put out a statement that they do not recommend that 9th grade students take AP courses. However, I hate to admit this, but when my kid goes to HS next year I will insist that he enroll in and many APs offered at each grade level, which including 9th. He is a smart but not overly diligent student and I think it’s good to be in the advanced courses whenever possible. Better cohort, better teachers, GPA boost, better curriculum, etc.

That was many years ago, before College Board remembered that they like money, and started inventing lots of new APs for 9th
grade and non-university-level courses.

https://blog.collegeboard.org/popular-ap-courses-grade

What's your plan if your non-overly-diligent student can't keep up with the curriculum and gets a B or C in the AP class instead of an A in honors?

My neighbors hired a tutors for their 9th grader who couldn’t keep up in APUSH and honors Alg 2. Odd to me the parents that push their kids into advanced classes they can’t handle.

Having a tutor does not necessarily mean that the content is too hard. Sometimes the teaching style is not a match for the student, or they just need personal attention that they can't get in a 2500 person school with 31 students in class.

Yes it does, unless you are dealing with a LD. Honors and AP by their very nature are meant to be quicker or more in depth(likely both) and require more independent work to master the material. If you constantly need a tutor you are outside of your current capability. It doesn’t mean that will be true for every subject or forever, but it does mean that for right now.

I’ll bite. My child had a tutor for algebra. He was fully capable of handling the material, but there was no textbook, no links to materials on the class page, and the teacher did not give homework. So how was he supposed to practice independently outside of class, and how were we supposed to support him in doing so when we had a pretty bare understanding of what was being covered in class? Maybe some kids can learn algebra and do well with just 40-minute class increments, but it doesn’t mean they can’t handle the material if they need or want additional practice outside of that and meet that through tutoring.

This. This is why I can make a living as a very expensive tutor for both private and public school students. There is an amazing quantity of crap teachers - on many occasions I have encountered teachers actively teaching wrong answers to students! Only once has such a teacher been actively removed from the classroom (but not fired). Or there are teachers who cannot explain the why of material or offer alternate valid explanations.

Add to that the growing movement of schools who have thrown away textbooks and who promote group classwork without any teacher guidance or summary as a superior form of “instruction” because “data show” that kids who “struggle” with the material learn better. Somehow schools have come to believe that NOT teaching and hoping the kids come up with a derivation or solution on their own is a superior form of teaching.

And then, particularly in public school another layer is the refusal to identify and accommodate learners with learning disabilities or other neurological differences like ADHD. I regularly encounter - in my HS students - kids whose parents have previously raised concerns with the school and asked for assessment, 504s or IEPs, and have been (illegally) turned down or given subpar incomplete assessment. Often, these kids are extremely bright and have been able to compensate until demands become overwhelming in HS. One of my student’s parents broke down in tears when her child was identified as dyslexic in 11th grade. She had asked the school for years about her daughter’s learning struggles and was constantly told that her daughter was fine and just of average intelligence and was working to the best of her ability.

I know there are a group of you who believe that these kids with learning disabilities or ADHD don’t deserve to be in advanced classes because they somehow drag down the class, but I’d ask you to think about what we as a society lose when we don’t give bright neurodivergent kids access to higher level instruction. They are, IME, equally as smart as neurotypical kids and often have out-of-the-box ways of thinking about things that benefit all in the classroom.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I teach AP Social Studies courses, including AP Govt. Several years ago, the Collegeboard put out a statement that they do not recommend that 9th grade students take AP courses. However, I hate to admit this, but when my kid goes to HS next year I will insist that he enroll in and many APs offered at each grade level, which including 9th. He is a smart but not overly diligent student and I think it’s good to be in the advanced courses whenever possible. Better cohort, better teachers, GPA boost, better curriculum, etc.

That was many years ago, before College Board remembered that they like money, and started inventing lots of new APs for 9th
grade and non-university-level courses.

https://blog.collegeboard.org/popular-ap-courses-grade

What's your plan if your non-overly-diligent student can't keep up with the curriculum and gets a B or C in the AP class instead of an A in honors?

My neighbors hired a tutors for their 9th grader who couldn’t keep up in APUSH and honors Alg 2. Odd to me the parents that push their kids into advanced classes they can’t handle.

Having a tutor does not necessarily mean that the content is too hard. Sometimes the teaching style is not a match for the student, or they just need personal attention that they can't get in a 2500 person school with 31 students in class.

Yes it does, unless you are dealing with a LD. Honors and AP by their very nature are meant to be quicker or more in depth(likely both) and require more independent work to master the material. If you constantly need a tutor you are outside of your current capability. It doesn’t mean that will be true for every subject or forever, but it does mean that for right now.

Who cares if a kid needs a tutor to master the material? The point of school is to learn. Knowledge and ability are not fixed. There's no prize for breezing through a class.

Because the majority of students and families can not afford tutors.

Just like they can’t afford to retake standardized tests 5-6 times until they get a better number.

Just like most can’t afford college counselors, tons of college applications, and the ability to visit colleges.

Do you not see how this is an issue?

It’s not a level playing field. If your kid can’t do it with just the teacher teaching him and needs a $70/hr tutor to baby step it for them, it’s an unfair advantage and your kid wasn’t ready for the class but still pulled out a good grade because he was spoon fed while others weren’t.

MCPS offered it for free for the past two years. If you choose not to use it, that's on you.

How is this relevant to THIS year?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I teach AP Social Studies courses, including AP Govt. Several years ago, the Collegeboard put out a statement that they do not recommend that 9th grade students take AP courses. However, I hate to admit this, but when my kid goes to HS next year I will insist that he enroll in and many APs offered at each grade level, which including 9th. He is a smart but not overly diligent student and I think it’s good to be in the advanced courses whenever possible. Better cohort, better teachers, GPA boost, better curriculum, etc.

That was many years ago, before College Board remembered that they like money, and started inventing lots of new APs for 9th
grade and non-university-level courses.

https://blog.collegeboard.org/popular-ap-courses-grade

What's your plan if your non-overly-diligent student can't keep up with the curriculum and gets a B or C in the AP class instead of an A in honors?

My neighbors hired a tutors for their 9th grader who couldn’t keep up in APUSH and honors Alg 2. Odd to me the parents that push their kids into advanced classes they can’t handle.

Having a tutor does not necessarily mean that the content is too hard. Sometimes the teaching style is not a match for the student, or they just need personal attention that they can't get in a 2500 person school with 31 students in class.

Yes it does, unless you are dealing with a LD. Honors and AP by their very nature are meant to be quicker or more in depth(likely both) and require more independent work to master the material. If you constantly need a tutor you are outside of your current capability. It doesn’t mean that will be true for every subject or forever, but it does mean that for right now.

Who cares if a kid needs a tutor to master the material? The point of school is to learn. Knowledge and ability are not fixed. There's no prize for breezing through a class.

Because the majority of students and families can not afford tutors.

Just like they can’t afford to retake standardized tests 5-6 times until they get a better number.

Just like most can’t afford college counselors, tons of college applications, and the ability to visit colleges.

Do you not see how this is an issue?

It’s not a level playing field. If your kid can’t do it with just the teacher teaching him and needs a $70/hr tutor to baby step it for them, it’s an unfair advantage and your kid wasn’t ready for the class but still pulled out a good grade because he was spoon fed while others weren’t.

MCPS offered it for free for the past two years. If you choose not to use it, that's on you.

It is no longer offered. That was Covid only.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I teach AP Social Studies courses, including AP Govt. Several years ago, the Collegeboard put out a statement that they do not recommend that 9th grade students take AP courses. However, I hate to admit this, but when my kid goes to HS next year I will insist that he enroll in and many APs offered at each grade level, which including 9th. He is a smart but not overly diligent student and I think it’s good to be in the advanced courses whenever possible. Better cohort, better teachers, GPA boost, better curriculum, etc.

That was many years ago, before College Board remembered that they like money, and started inventing lots of new APs for 9th
grade and non-university-level courses.

https://blog.collegeboard.org/popular-ap-courses-grade

What's your plan if your non-overly-diligent student can't keep up with the curriculum and gets a B or C in the AP class instead of an A in honors?

My neighbors hired a tutors for their 9th grader who couldn’t keep up in APUSH and honors Alg 2. Odd to me the parents that push their kids into advanced classes they can’t handle.

Having a tutor does not necessarily mean that the content is too hard. Sometimes the teaching style is not a match for the student, or they just need personal attention that they can't get in a 2500 person school with 31 students in class.

Yes it does, unless you are dealing with a LD. Honors and AP by their very nature are meant to be quicker or more in depth(likely both) and require more independent work to master the material. If you constantly need a tutor you are outside of your current capability. It doesn’t mean that will be true for every subject or forever, but it does mean that for right now.

Who cares if a kid needs a tutor to master the material? The point of school is to learn. Knowledge and ability are not fixed. There's no prize for breezing through a class.

Because the majority of students and families can not afford tutors.

Just like they can’t afford to retake standardized tests 5-6 times until they get a better number.

Just like most can’t afford college counselors, tons of college applications, and the ability to visit colleges.

Do you not see how this is an issue?

It’s not a level playing field. If your kid can’t do it with just the teacher teaching him and needs a $70/hr tutor to baby step it for them, it’s an unfair advantage and your kid wasn’t ready for the class but still pulled out a good grade because he was spoon fed while others weren’t.

MCPS offered it for free for the past two years. If you choose not to use it, that's on you.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I teach AP Social Studies courses, including AP Govt. Several years ago, the Collegeboard put out a statement that they do not recommend that 9th grade students take AP courses. However, I hate to admit this, but when my kid goes to HS next year I will insist that he enroll in and many APs offered at each grade level, which including 9th. He is a smart but not overly diligent student and I think it’s good to be in the advanced courses whenever possible. Better cohort, better teachers, GPA boost, better curriculum, etc.

That was many years ago, before College Board remembered that they like money, and started inventing lots of new APs for 9th
grade and non-university-level courses.

https://blog.collegeboard.org/popular-ap-courses-grade

What's your plan if your non-overly-diligent student can't keep up with the curriculum and gets a B or C in the AP class instead of an A in honors?

My neighbors hired a tutors for their 9th grader who couldn’t keep up in APUSH and honors Alg 2. Odd to me the parents that push their kids into advanced classes they can’t handle.

Having a tutor does not necessarily mean that the content is too hard. Sometimes the teaching style is not a match for the student, or they just need personal attention that they can't get in a 2500 person school with 31 students in class.

Yes it does, unless you are dealing with a LD. Honors and AP by their very nature are meant to be quicker or more in depth(likely both) and require more independent work to master the material. If you constantly need a tutor you are outside of your current capability. It doesn’t mean that will be true for every subject or forever, but it does mean that for right now.

I’ll bite. My child had a tutor for algebra. He was fully capable of handling the material, but there was no textbook, no links to materials on the class page, and the teacher did not give homework. So how was he supposed to practice independently outside of class, and how were we supposed to support him in doing so when we had a pretty bare understanding of what was being covered in class? Maybe some kids can learn algebra and do well with just 40-minute class increments, but it doesn’t mean they can’t handle the material if they need or want additional practice outside of that and meet that through tutoring.

Exactly this. When MCPS offered the tutoring we took advantage of it as we didn't want our child falling behind or struggling due to the teaching style. Now in pre-cal the teacher is using a textbook and its making all the difference between the teaching style and book.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I teach AP Social Studies courses, including AP Govt. Several years ago, the Collegeboard put out a statement that they do not recommend that 9th grade students take AP courses. However, I hate to admit this, but when my kid goes to HS next year I will insist that he enroll in and many APs offered at each grade level, which including 9th. He is a smart but not overly diligent student and I think it’s good to be in the advanced courses whenever possible. Better cohort, better teachers, GPA boost, better curriculum, etc.

That was many years ago, before College Board remembered that they like money, and started inventing lots of new APs for 9th
grade and non-university-level courses.

https://blog.collegeboard.org/popular-ap-courses-grade

What's your plan if your non-overly-diligent student can't keep up with the curriculum and gets a B or C in the AP class instead of an A in honors?

My neighbors hired a tutors for their 9th grader who couldn’t keep up in APUSH and honors Alg 2. Odd to me the parents that push their kids into advanced classes they can’t handle.

Having a tutor does not necessarily mean that the content is too hard. Sometimes the teaching style is not a match for the student, or they just need personal attention that they can't get in a 2500 person school with 31 students in class.

Yes it does, unless you are dealing with a LD. Honors and AP by their very nature are meant to be quicker or more in depth(likely both) and require more independent work to master the material. If you constantly need a tutor you are outside of your current capability. It doesn’t mean that will be true for every subject or forever, but it does mean that for right now.

Who cares if a kid needs a tutor to master the material? The point of school is to learn. Knowledge and ability are not fixed. There's no prize for breezing through a class.

Because the majority of students and families can not afford tutors.

Just like they can’t afford to retake standardized tests 5-6 times until they get a better number.

Just like most can’t afford college counselors, tons of college applications, and the ability to visit colleges.

Do you not see how this is an issue?

It’s not a level playing field. If your kid can’t do it with just the teacher teaching him and needs a $70/hr tutor to baby step it for them, it’s an unfair advantage and your kid wasn’t ready for the class but still pulled out a good grade because he was spoon fed while others weren’t.

Life is not fair. Meritocracy is a myth. The point of school is to learn, not to view other people’s kids as competitors.

But your kid isn’t learning in school - same as the rest of the class. But yours is getting expensive help OUTSIDE of school, so it can look like he is smart.

My kid isn’t getting outside help—no tutor. Unlike you, I don’t care if other kids in his class are being tutored to “look smart” or that their parents just want them to learn the material. Makes no difference to me!