Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread’s more accurate title: “My kid is used to having special advantages but doesn’t in swimmer swim. I want to change that”

Life in the 1%.

It’s more: my kid finally does well in a sport because of these rules. Makes the a meets, all relays and Divisionals. The rule is great!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread’s more accurate title: “My kid is used to having special advantages but doesn’t in swimmer swim. I want to change that”

Life in the 1%.

Anonymous wrote:This thread’s more accurate title: “My kid is used to having special advantages but doesn’t in swimmer swim. I want to change that”

Anonymous wrote:This thread’s more accurate title: “My kid is used to having special advantages but doesn’t in swimmer swim. I want to change that”

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I still think June 1st is so unfair to the kids who have late May birthdays. Why not change it to July 1st and make everyone happy?

Can you reread your own post and try to do some self reflection? What about the kid with a June 29th birthday? Do you think they will miraculously be happy with your new rule change?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid with the summer birthday doesn't even do summer swim, so this rule doesn't benefit my family. But I actually find it HILARIOUS that it upsets people this much because if you actually had to deal with a kid with an early August birthday, like we do, you'd deal with this problem constantly, all the time. Your kid is the youngest in class, the shortest in class. Your kid can't go to camp with their friends because they are in a different age bracket. Your kid is the last to lose a tooth, last to hit puberty, last to drive. No one is in town for your kid's birthday. And on and on, it's exhausting.

But those of you without summer birthday kids encounter this one time and are like "nope, we have to change the rules." Amazing. Guess I should have been lobbying for different cut off dates for schools, camps, and activities all these years instead of just sucking it up and teaching my kid to suck it up too.

Agree. This is one time when my summer birthday kids have an advantage. My nearly 14 year old is going to be pissed next year though when all his fellow 9th graders are able to get life guarding jobs next summer and he’s not old enough until late august,

How is this a big deal? Mine has a September birthday so will miss the entire year. They don't care.

Because some kids with August birthdays were sent to school on time and weren’t red shirted. If you have a summer birthday and want to do things with kids in your same grade at school (camps, jobs, life milestones) you find that often you can’t because there are age cut offs that don’t match the grade level. Your September birthday kid who has never faced this is as relevant as any other non summer birthday, that is, it has nothing to do with this conversation at all.

And, again, who cares. I have generally the youngest child as my September kid went to school at age 4/5 so you are telling me my kid has never faced this. My kid faces it every day in everything they do but yet, they don't complain. They are the absolute youngest for school and yet, they still do academically very well and they put the effort into swim, even though they aren't the fastest or best. My kid will never have friends exactly the same age or grade. In summer swim, the same age kids are usually a grade below them, or technically July-August kids could be same grade or a grade younger. You probably don't have a child in this situation and yet, you complain. It impacts my family, not yours.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As an outsider looking in, I have to say it’s no wonder you have parents obsessing over this- the swim league creates this monster with three timers a lane and the hype around divisional and all stars. You can’t say it’s a relaxed summer rec sport on one hand and then omg we need three timers a lane and this, that, or the other.

The multiple timers is to ensure an accurate time, which is really the only thing most swimmers should care about because you are always swimming against your own best time (which is why worrying about age cut offs is silly -- every swimmer can swim for their personal best and that is ultimately what matters). Three timers per lane allows them to take the middle time, so swimmers feel more confident about the accuracy of their time and can know how they are doing week to week. If you didn't have three timers, it would never be clear if a kid swam a bit slower this week or just got a timer with slower reflexes. It takes it from "relaxed" to "meaningless" and no one wants to do something totally meaningless.

And divisional and all-stars are the same thing. Most leagues have teams select their two fastest swimmers from each division to send to these events. Not the two swimmers who have won the most, but just the fastest. This is just what swimming is -- competing against the clock. Having "hype" around these events is part of the fun and allows the kids to cheer each other on and support teammates who are swimming well. This is one of the main points of swim team.

Having 3 watch times vs 2 doesn’t lead to accuracy. It leads to precision, but not accuracy. The true time is the time from the start to the time the swimmer makes contact with the wall. A time with a stopwatch who sees the starting box light has a 0.15 s delay due to reaction time. Likely higher and with wider variance if they are using their thumb to start the watch instead of their index finger, and most people use their thumbs. And definitely higher if timers are reacting to a sound instead of a light. You can reliably add 0.15-.022 sec to every time if you want the “true” time.

If there is a delay due to seeing the light, wouldn't times be faster? This seems correct too as most kids are swimming comparable LCM times to their SCM times - though maybe that is due to no blocks

Yes, I think we are saying the same thing. A 30.00 sec timed 50 scm is probably really 30.15 sec because the timer started the watch 0.15 sec or so after the start. It is possible it is more like a 30.25 sec race because many timers anticipate the touch and hit their watches or buttons too soon. When I work the computer for meets, I can see that often the button time is often a little faster than the pad time. The pad and button start together and the button is triggered by the timer whereas the pad is triggered by the swimmer.

But it’s very hard to equate scm and lcm and having blocks/no blocks just adds more uncertainty. The scy-lcm conversion is not great and most kids can’t achieve their best scy time in lcm conversion in age group swimming. At least that had been my own experience having 2 club swim kids, being a timing computer operator, and what their coaches have told us.

I am actually saying the opposite: light moves faster than sound. Timers are seeing light and starting watches before kids hear the sound. I figured that is why all star times are often faster:touch pads and plungers.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As an outsider looking in, I have to say it’s no wonder you have parents obsessing over this- the swim league creates this monster with three timers a lane and the hype around divisional and all stars. You can’t say it’s a relaxed summer rec sport on one hand and then omg we need three timers a lane and this, that, or the other.

The multiple timers is to ensure an accurate time, which is really the only thing most swimmers should care about because you are always swimming against your own best time (which is why worrying about age cut offs is silly -- every swimmer can swim for their personal best and that is ultimately what matters). Three timers per lane allows them to take the middle time, so swimmers feel more confident about the accuracy of their time and can know how they are doing week to week. If you didn't have three timers, it would never be clear if a kid swam a bit slower this week or just got a timer with slower reflexes. It takes it from "relaxed" to "meaningless" and no one wants to do something totally meaningless.

And divisional and all-stars are the same thing. Most leagues have teams select their two fastest swimmers from each division to send to these events. Not the two swimmers who have won the most, but just the fastest. This is just what swimming is -- competing against the clock. Having "hype" around these events is part of the fun and allows the kids to cheer each other on and support teammates who are swimming well. This is one of the main points of swim team.

Having 3 watch times vs 2 doesn’t lead to accuracy. It leads to precision, but not accuracy. The true time is the time from the start to the time the swimmer makes contact with the wall. A time with a stopwatch who sees the starting box light has a 0.15 s delay due to reaction time. Likely higher and with wider variance if they are using their thumb to start the watch instead of their index finger, and most people use their thumbs. And definitely higher if timers are reacting to a sound instead of a light. You can reliably add 0.15-.022 sec to every time if you want the “true” time.

If there is a delay due to seeing the light, wouldn't times be faster? This seems correct too as most kids are swimming comparable LCM times to their SCM times - though maybe that is due to no blocks

Yes, I think we are saying the same thing. A 30.00 sec timed 50 scm is probably really 30.15 sec because the timer started the watch 0.15 sec or so after the start. It is possible it is more like a 30.25 sec race because many timers anticipate the touch and hit their watches or buttons too soon. When I work the computer for meets, I can see that often the button time is often a little faster than the pad time. The pad and button start together and the button is triggered by the timer whereas the pad is triggered by the swimmer.

But it’s very hard to equate scm and lcm and having blocks/no blocks just adds more uncertainty. The scy-lcm conversion is not great and most kids can’t achieve their best scy time in lcm conversion in age group swimming. At least that had been my own experience having 2 club swim kids, being a timing computer operator, and what their coaches have told us.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As an outsider looking in, I have to say it’s no wonder you have parents obsessing over this- the swim league creates this monster with three timers a lane and the hype around divisional and all stars. You can’t say it’s a relaxed summer rec sport on one hand and then omg we need three timers a lane and this, that, or the other.

The multiple timers is to ensure an accurate time, which is really the only thing most swimmers should care about because you are always swimming against your own best time (which is why worrying about age cut offs is silly -- every swimmer can swim for their personal best and that is ultimately what matters). Three timers per lane allows them to take the middle time, so swimmers feel more confident about the accuracy of their time and can know how they are doing week to week. If you didn't have three timers, it would never be clear if a kid swam a bit slower this week or just got a timer with slower reflexes. It takes it from "relaxed" to "meaningless" and no one wants to do something totally meaningless.

And divisional and all-stars are the same thing. Most leagues have teams select their two fastest swimmers from each division to send to these events. Not the two swimmers who have won the most, but just the fastest. This is just what swimming is -- competing against the clock. Having "hype" around these events is part of the fun and allows the kids to cheer each other on and support teammates who are swimming well. This is one of the main points of swim team.

Having 3 watch times vs 2 doesn’t lead to accuracy. It leads to precision, but not accuracy. The true time is the time from the start to the time the swimmer makes contact with the wall. A time with a stopwatch who sees the starting box light has a 0.15 s delay due to reaction time. Likely higher and with wider variance if they are using their thumb to start the watch instead of their index finger, and most people use their thumbs. And definitely higher if timers are reacting to a sound instead of a light. You can reliably add 0.15-.022 sec to every time if you want the “true” time.

If there is a delay due to seeing the light, wouldn't times be faster? This seems correct too as most kids are swimming comparable LCM times to their SCM times - though maybe that is due to no blocks

Yes, I think we are saying the same thing. A 30.00 sec timed 50 scm is probably really 30.15 sec because the timer started the watch 0.15 sec or so after the start. It is possible it is more like a 30.25 sec race because many timers anticipate the touch and hit their watches or buttons too soon. When I work the computer for meets, I can see that often the button time is often a little faster than the pad time. The pad and button start together and the button is triggered by the timer whereas the pad is triggered by the swimmer.

But it’s very hard to equate scm and lcm and having blocks/no blocks just adds more uncertainty. The scy-lcm conversion is not great and most kids can’t achieve their best scy time in lcm conversion in age group swimming. At least that had been my own experience having 2 club swim kids, being a timing computer operator, and what their coaches have told us.

Most of the exceptions to your last statement are kids who are not yet comfortable getting in and out of turns but can consistently repeat their stroke over the longer distance leg of each length of the pool.

The issue isn't age, its skill and training. You cannot compare club or year round swim to summer swimmers and just summer alone aren't going to learn those techniques in only 6 weeks. I have a slower club swimmer. They are up three days a week at 4:30 to swim. If they cannot do turns you need to teach them or stop complaining.

I wasn't complaining in the least. I was simply pointing out why some, mostly inexperienced, kids tend to outswim their scy to lcm conversions.

Age by a year is not so much an issue as it is natural ability, how much they practice, etc. you are using age as an excuse. The kids who out swim work hard and have a lot of natural talent. They are swimming 7-9+ days a week.