Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.npr.org/2023/05/17/1175452002/church-closings-religious-affiliation

Wow - "Just 16% of Americans say religion is the most important thing in their life, according to a new report released this week by the Public Religion Research Institute.".

"The sharp uptick in the number of younger Americans with no religious affiliation — a group known as the "nones" — is the major driver in a seismic shift in the religious landscape, says Ryan Burge, a political science professor at Eastern Illinois University and author of The Nones: Where They Came From, Who They Are, and Where They Are Going."

What are your thoughts?

Not surprising. I am a 51 year old lapsed Catholic. I would like to go back to church, but there's simply so much history and issues continuing in the present day that make it hard for me to do so. And much harder to explain to my children why it's imperative that we attend Mass every Sunday when in truth I am pro-choice, don't believe the arguments in favor of natural family planning, support women being priests, and don't think the Catholic church has done near enough to address its historical abuses. To keep family peace and tradition both of my kids will be confirmed and then I feel pretty much done. I may explore another denomination.

To keep family peace with whom? Your parents? Certainly not your kids! They will be making commitments that they know their parent doesn't believe in and that they may not believe in either. Considering that confirmation is about making an adult commitment to the church, it seems like it would make sense to ask your kids if they want to be confirmed, instead of insisting that they do something you don't believe in yourself, "to keep family peace." It's like you're teaching them to be hypocritical.

NP, I was confirmed because my parents made me, and so was every other kid in my school. It was never a choice for anyone, and everyone knew it. I still remember wondering what planet the priest lived on while he was droning on and on about how we were freely choosing this religion on this momentous occasion. It was and has always been a hypocritical ritual.

Same! I was confirmed under protest with a group of friends who felt the same. None of us raised their kids Catholic.

Sounds like you went to a catholic school, right? and I'm curious, in what (if any) religion did you raise your kids?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.npr.org/2023/05/17/1175452002/church-closings-religious-affiliation

Wow - "Just 16% of Americans say religion is the most important thing in their life, according to a new report released this week by the Public Religion Research Institute.".

"The sharp uptick in the number of younger Americans with no religious affiliation — a group known as the "nones" — is the major driver in a seismic shift in the religious landscape, says Ryan Burge, a political science professor at Eastern Illinois University and author of The Nones: Where They Came From, Who They Are, and Where They Are Going."

What are your thoughts?

Not surprising. I am a 51 year old lapsed Catholic. I would like to go back to church, but there's simply so much history and issues continuing in the present day that make it hard for me to do so. And much harder to explain to my children why it's imperative that we attend Mass every Sunday when in truth I am pro-choice, don't believe the arguments in favor of natural family planning, support women being priests, and don't think the Catholic church has done near enough to address its historical abuses. To keep family peace and tradition both of my kids will be confirmed and then I feel pretty much done. I may explore another denomination.

To keep family peace with whom? Your parents? Certainly not your kids! They will be making commitments that they know their parent doesn't believe in and that they may not believe in either. Considering that confirmation is about making an adult commitment to the church, it seems like it would make sense to ask your kids if they want to be confirmed, instead of insisting that they do something you don't believe in yourself, "to keep family peace." It's like you're teaching them to be hypocritical.

NP, I was confirmed because my parents made me, and so was every other kid in my school. It was never a choice for anyone, and everyone knew it. I still remember wondering what planet the priest lived on while he was droning on and on about how we were freely choosing this religion on this momentous occasion. It was and has always been a hypocritical ritual.

Same! I was confirmed under protest with a group of friends who felt the same. None of us raised their kids Catholic.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Not surprising. I am a 51 year old lapsed Catholic. I would like to go back to church, but there's simply so much history and issues continuing in the present day that make it hard for me to do so. And much harder to explain to my children why it's imperative that we attend Mass every Sunday when in truth I am pro-choice, don't believe the arguments in favor of natural family planning, support women being priests, and don't think the Catholic church has done near enough to address its historical abuses. To keep family peace and tradition both of my kids will be confirmed and then I feel pretty much done. I may explore another denomination.

You would be warmly welcomed at an Episcopal Church and likely find many former Catholics in the pews who have similar stories to yours. I hope you can find a way to continue to embrace the parts of your faith that bring you peace and community.

And no valid apostolic succession or sacraments.

No apostolic succession because Episcopalians don't have a Pope. They do have sacraments, but you're not condemned to hell for not receiving them

Yes apostolic succession. The chain was never broken in the reformation.

See Leo XIII, Apostolicae Curae, declaring Anglican “Orders” “absolutely null and utterly void” because of, among other things, changes in the Edwardine Ordinal that negated the sacrificial nature of the priesthood/episcopate. Later efforts to restore apostolic succession via additional changes and inclusion of bishops from the Dutch Old Catholics are doubtful because, among other things, there is still ambiguity as to what bishops are being ordained to do.

Leo XIII was from a line that Anglicans don't recognize. That's how schisms work.

Can you explain more about the Leo XIII “line” that Anglicans do not recognize? For example, do they think he was not a valid Pope because of, e.g., the whole Avignon Pope/Anti-Pope thing? Or that they don’t recognize any Pope? Or that they think HIS own Orders were invalid?

I’d like to understand this better.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Not surprising. I am a 51 year old lapsed Catholic. I would like to go back to church, but there's simply so much history and issues continuing in the present day that make it hard for me to do so. And much harder to explain to my children why it's imperative that we attend Mass every Sunday when in truth I am pro-choice, don't believe the arguments in favor of natural family planning, support women being priests, and don't think the Catholic church has done near enough to address its historical abuses. To keep family peace and tradition both of my kids will be confirmed and then I feel pretty much done. I may explore another denomination.

You would be warmly welcomed at an Episcopal Church and likely find many former Catholics in the pews who have similar stories to yours. I hope you can find a way to continue to embrace the parts of your faith that bring you peace and community.

And no valid apostolic succession or sacraments.

No apostolic succession because Episcopalians don't have a Pope. They do have sacraments, but you're not condemned to hell for not receiving them

Yes apostolic succession. The chain was never broken in the reformation.

See Leo XIII, Apostolicae Curae, declaring Anglican “Orders” “absolutely null and utterly void” because of, among other things, changes in the Edwardine Ordinal that negated the sacrificial nature of the priesthood/episcopate. Later efforts to restore apostolic succession via additional changes and inclusion of bishops from the Dutch Old Catholics are doubtful because, among other things, there is still ambiguity as to what bishops are being ordained to do.

Leo XIII was from a line that Anglicans don't recognize. That's how schisms work.

How convenient.

Particularly given that the Elizabethan Settlement essentially created a “big tent” where people can believe most anything they want and everybody just ignores the differences and never mentions.

Enough Anglicans recognized Leo XiII and his view of Anglican “orders” that they sought reordination according to the Roman Pontifical from bishops validly ordained in the line(s) stemming from the See of Utrecht or as noted incorporated the “Dutch Touch” into their Anglican ordinations after the Anglican Ordinal was revised in an effort to correct the problematic Edwardian changes.

Anonymous wrote:If churches would stop focusing on politics, they might get some younger folks interested again.

+1

We changed churches to avoid “politics in the pulpit” and found a new church where sermons (and everything else) focused on the Word of God. And we are moderate apolitical people, not extremists in either direction…

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Not surprising. I am a 51 year old lapsed Catholic. I would like to go back to church, but there's simply so much history and issues continuing in the present day that make it hard for me to do so. And much harder to explain to my children why it's imperative that we attend Mass every Sunday when in truth I am pro-choice, don't believe the arguments in favor of natural family planning, support women being priests, and don't think the Catholic church has done near enough to address its historical abuses. To keep family peace and tradition both of my kids will be confirmed and then I feel pretty much done. I may explore another denomination.

You would be warmly welcomed at an Episcopal Church and likely find many former Catholics in the pews who have similar stories to yours. I hope you can find a way to continue to embrace the parts of your faith that bring you peace and community.

And no valid apostolic succession or sacraments.

No apostolic succession because Episcopalians don't have a Pope. They do have sacraments, but you're not condemned to hell for not receiving them

Yes apostolic succession. The chain was never broken in the reformation.

See Leo XIII, Apostolicae Curae, declaring Anglican “Orders” “absolutely null and utterly void” because of, among other things, changes in the Edwardine Ordinal that negated the sacrificial nature of the priesthood/episcopate. Later efforts to restore apostolic succession via additional changes and inclusion of bishops from the Dutch Old Catholics are doubtful because, among other things, there is still ambiguity as to what bishops are being ordained to do.

Leo XIII was from a line that Anglicans don't recognize. That's how schisms work.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Not surprising. I am a 51 year old lapsed Catholic. I would like to go back to church, but there's simply so much history and issues continuing in the present day that make it hard for me to do so. And much harder to explain to my children why it's imperative that we attend Mass every Sunday when in truth I am pro-choice, don't believe the arguments in favor of natural family planning, support women being priests, and don't think the Catholic church has done near enough to address its historical abuses. To keep family peace and tradition both of my kids will be confirmed and then I feel pretty much done. I may explore another denomination.

You would be warmly welcomed at an Episcopal Church and likely find many former Catholics in the pews who have similar stories to yours. I hope you can find a way to continue to embrace the parts of your faith that bring you peace and community.

And no valid apostolic succession or sacraments.

No apostolic succession because Episcopalians don't have a Pope. They do have sacraments, but you're not condemned to hell for not receiving them

The role of the Papacy is irrelevant to apostolic succession.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Not surprising. I am a 51 year old lapsed Catholic. I would like to go back to church, but there's simply so much history and issues continuing in the present day that make it hard for me to do so. And much harder to explain to my children why it's imperative that we attend Mass every Sunday when in truth I am pro-choice, don't believe the arguments in favor of natural family planning, support women being priests, and don't think the Catholic church has done near enough to address its historical abuses. To keep family peace and tradition both of my kids will be confirmed and then I feel pretty much done. I may explore another denomination.

You would be warmly welcomed at an Episcopal Church and likely find many former Catholics in the pews who have similar stories to yours. I hope you can find a way to continue to embrace the parts of your faith that bring you peace and community.

And no valid apostolic succession or sacraments.

No apostolic succession because Episcopalians don't have a Pope. They do have sacraments, but you're not condemned to hell for not receiving them

Yes apostolic succession. The chain was never broken in the reformation.

See Leo XIII, Apostolicae Curae, declaring Anglican “Orders” “absolutely null and utterly void” because of, among other things, changes in the Edwardine Ordinal that negated the sacrificial nature of the priesthood/episcopate. Later efforts to restore apostolic succession via additional changes and inclusion of bishops from the Dutch Old Catholics are doubtful because, among other things, there is still ambiguity as to what bishops are being ordained to do.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"What are your thoughts?"

My thoughts are that it's not exclusive to religious participation. Americans are leading increasingly lonely and isolated lives. They're not just not attending church, they're pulling back from Ruritans, ladies clubs, book groups, bowling leagues, golf leagues, yacht clubs, country clubs, DAR, union halls, VFW clubs and events, hunting clubs...

There is basically one exception. Those of us who have minor children and sufficient financial means spend a lot of our time driving and watching our kids play soccer or practice dance routines.

Pretty much anything that was once a staple of American working and middle class community life is struggling for membership or dying. Never before in the history of humankind have so many people been living alone. It's an enormous mental health problem that's rapidly worsening. So we spend a lot of time online in silo'd groups getting fed algorithms that are scientifically designed to make us angrier about whatever we're inclined to be angry about.

DCUM will love to snicker at the idea of churches declining. For our family, ours is a major source of community, friendship, service work, youth activities and friends, and so on.

Spot on.
Add Scouting to that list - those numbers have plummeted as well. Even the local chamber of commerce and things like that. Anything that has a non-competitive community aspect seems to be dying. And it's those things that are most critical to knitting together the fabric of society.

Could you think of any possible reason for that?

Not the PP, but I've had experience with scouting and was really put off by the vibe - it was overwhelmingly white, conservative, and Christian, and felt like stepping back in time to the 70's - but not the good 70's. It was like it hadn't changed changed since I was a kid, but kids and parents (at least most of them) have changed. Most of the kids there didn't seem to be enjoying themselves, and were being forced by their parents, who seemed to think Eagle Scout would be good on a college application, or that boyscouts was teaching their kid some kind of values (which as far as I could see, it was not).

Scouting PP. I can definitely understand your feelings on this. That said, you need to try out multiple packs (cub scouts) or troops (former boy scouts). The general vibe is set by the adult leadership. Although most troops are scout led, they still have a scout master and assistant scout masters who set the tone for the youth leaders who lead the patrols within the troop. We found several troops to be extremely uncomfortable and a couple that were much more comfortable for us. But non-whites are definitely a minority. My Asian kids are some of the few non-whites in the packs. Our cub scout pack was more diverse. But, when we found a more diverse boy scout troop, we got the same odd vibe that you did. We found a largely majority white group that definitely reflected our values a lot more. One of the things was that this group is a lot more liberal and non-religious minded. I know that the scouts have a very Christian foundation, but the national organization has moved to the "Duty to God" portion being more individualized and more controlled within each scout's family, rather than done at the troop level. While many troops are still sponsored by churches or have very Christian values, there are some that are much more diverse religiously and have the scouts handle all religious observations at home.

I can understand if you don't, but if you are still open to scouting, you should visit some local packs/troops to you and see if you can find one that is more suited to your comfort zone. All it takes is the adult leadership to be more like-minded to you. They are rare, but they do exist.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"What are your thoughts?"

My thoughts are that it's not exclusive to religious participation. Americans are leading increasingly lonely and isolated lives. They're not just not attending church, they're pulling back from Ruritans, ladies clubs, book groups, bowling leagues, golf leagues, yacht clubs, country clubs, DAR, union halls, VFW clubs and events, hunting clubs...

There is basically one exception. Those of us who have minor children and sufficient financial means spend a lot of our time driving and watching our kids play soccer or practice dance routines.

Pretty much anything that was once a staple of American working and middle class community life is struggling for membership or dying. Never before in the history of humankind have so many people been living alone. It's an enormous mental health problem that's rapidly worsening. So we spend a lot of time online in silo'd groups getting fed algorithms that are scientifically designed to make us angrier about whatever we're inclined to be angry about.

DCUM will love to snicker at the idea of churches declining. For our family, ours is a major source of community, friendship, service work, youth activities and friends, and so on.

Spot on.
Add Scouting to that list - those numbers have plummeted as well. Even the local chamber of commerce and things like that. Anything that has a non-competitive community aspect seems to be dying. And it's those things that are most critical to knitting together the fabric of society.

Could you think of any possible reason for that?

NP. We have scouts in our family. The big drop was 2019 -> 2020. The reason was the pandemic. Many families stopped attending meetings and camping due to Covid 19 concerns and many families dropped their memberships. But 2021 and 2022 have seen modest increases since the big drop. Scouting USA is still down to about 60% of what it was pre-pandemic, but it is climbing slowly. Expect it to take several years to recover, but people are coming back to scouting slowly.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Not surprising. I am a 51 year old lapsed Catholic. I would like to go back to church, but there's simply so much history and issues continuing in the present day that make it hard for me to do so. And much harder to explain to my children why it's imperative that we attend Mass every Sunday when in truth I am pro-choice, don't believe the arguments in favor of natural family planning, support women being priests, and don't think the Catholic church has done near enough to address its historical abuses. To keep family peace and tradition both of my kids will be confirmed and then I feel pretty much done. I may explore another denomination.

You would be warmly welcomed at an Episcopal Church and likely find many former Catholics in the pews who have similar stories to yours. I hope you can find a way to continue to embrace the parts of your faith that bring you peace and community.

And no valid apostolic succession or sacraments.

No apostolic succession because Episcopalians don't have a Pope. They do have sacraments, but you're not condemned to hell for not receiving them

Yes apostolic succession. The chain was never broken in the reformation.

That's what the Catholic Church teaches.

Every church teaches that other churches are heretical.

Above all the Progressive Church.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Not surprising. I am a 51 year old lapsed Catholic. I would like to go back to church, but there's simply so much history and issues continuing in the present day that make it hard for me to do so. And much harder to explain to my children why it's imperative that we attend Mass every Sunday when in truth I am pro-choice, don't believe the arguments in favor of natural family planning, support women being priests, and don't think the Catholic church has done near enough to address its historical abuses. To keep family peace and tradition both of my kids will be confirmed and then I feel pretty much done. I may explore another denomination.

You would be warmly welcomed at an Episcopal Church and likely find many former Catholics in the pews who have similar stories to yours. I hope you can find a way to continue to embrace the parts of your faith that bring you peace and community.

And no valid apostolic succession or sacraments.

No apostolic succession because Episcopalians don't have a Pope. They do have sacraments, but you're not condemned to hell for not receiving them

Yes apostolic succession. The chain was never broken in the reformation.

That's what the Catholic Church teaches.

Every church teaches that other churches are heretical.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.npr.org/2023/05/17/1175452002/church-closings-religious-affiliation

Wow - "Just 16% of Americans say religion is the most important thing in their life, according to a new report released this week by the Public Religion Research Institute.".

"The sharp uptick in the number of younger Americans with no religious affiliation — a group known as the "nones" — is the major driver in a seismic shift in the religious landscape, says Ryan Burge, a political science professor at Eastern Illinois University and author of The Nones: Where They Came From, Who They Are, and Where They Are Going."

What are your thoughts?

Not surprising. I am a 51 year old lapsed Catholic. I would like to go back to church, but there's simply so much history and issues continuing in the present day that make it hard for me to do so. And much harder to explain to my children why it's imperative that we attend Mass every Sunday when in truth I am pro-choice, don't believe the arguments in favor of natural family planning, support women being priests, and don't think the Catholic church has done near enough to address its historical abuses. To keep family peace and tradition both of my kids will be confirmed and then I feel pretty much done. I may explore another denomination.

To keep family peace with whom? Your parents? Certainly not your kids! They will be making commitments that they know their parent doesn't believe in and that they may not believe in either. Considering that confirmation is about making an adult commitment to the church, it seems like it would make sense to ask your kids if they want to be confirmed, instead of insisting that they do something you don't believe in yourself, "to keep family peace." It's like you're teaching them to be hypocritical.

NP, I was confirmed because my parents made me, and so was every other kid in my school. It was never a choice for anyone, and everyone knew it. I still remember wondering what planet the priest lived on while he was droning on and on about how we were freely choosing this religion on this momentous occasion. It was and has always been a hypocritical ritual.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"What are your thoughts?"

My thoughts are that it's not exclusive to religious participation. Americans are leading increasingly lonely and isolated lives. They're not just not attending church, they're pulling back from Ruritans, ladies clubs, book groups, bowling leagues, golf leagues, yacht clubs, country clubs, DAR, union halls, VFW clubs and events, hunting clubs...

There is basically one exception. Those of us who have minor children and sufficient financial means spend a lot of our time driving and watching our kids play soccer or practice dance routines.

Pretty much anything that was once a staple of American working and middle class community life is struggling for membership or dying. Never before in the history of humankind have so many people been living alone. It's an enormous mental health problem that's rapidly worsening. So we spend a lot of time online in silo'd groups getting fed algorithms that are scientifically designed to make us angrier about whatever we're inclined to be angry about.

DCUM will love to snicker at the idea of churches declining. For our family, ours is a major source of community, friendship, service work, youth activities and friends, and so on.

Spot on.
Add Scouting to that list - those numbers have plummeted as well. Even the local chamber of commerce and things like that. Anything that has a non-competitive community aspect seems to be dying. And it's those things that are most critical to knitting together the fabric of society.

Could you think of any possible reason for that?

Not the PP, but I've had experience with scouting and was really put off by the vibe - it was overwhelmingly white, conservative, and Christian, and felt like stepping back in time to the 70's - but not the good 70's. It was like it hadn't changed changed since I was a kid, but kids and parents (at least most of them) have changed. Most of the kids there didn't seem to be enjoying themselves, and were being forced by their parents, who seemed to think Eagle Scout would be good on a college application, or that boyscouts was teaching their kid some kind of values (which as far as I could see, it was not).

Our large mainstream church in DC remains full and growing / but numbers definitely thin out over the summer …. We have liberals and conservatives and people of all ages. We have a mix of fun social events, smaller groups tied together by shared interests that anyone can join, supports for people going through difficult transitions, many social justice initiatives and Bible studies/ different spiritual practice activities. The music is mostly traditional but rich and varied.

I think OP is right though - overall, attending church regularly is counter cultural.