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Anonymous wrote:Harvard and Yale will always have luster. Thats not the question. The question is how many other schools are just as good, and the answer is many.

This. What’s changing is the notion of Harvard or bust.

The reality is that this isn't new to most of the country. There was a certain class of people who would attend these schools, and then they would also admit the top students from random schools across the country. It is the latter part that lead many to believe the entire school has always been the best and the brightest. Also, even the not so smart, but privileged class of students would go on to make a lot of money and get to nod to positions of leadership, because that's how it was always done. But again, that was never about the actual education.

This is so true. Our generations (X and millennial) benefited from that brief meritocratic period so we see those schools through rose-colored glasses.

Yeah. That was the era. Sure you still had athletic recruiting, legacy and donor tips but much lower URMs and no first gen. It was totally meritocratic as a result. How do you know? It was still like 65% white.

43% of Harvard’s white admits are legacy, student athlete, or related to donors. If you really want to go that route, pure meritocracy would have these schools being 40% Asian and 60% everything else

Anonymous wrote:What luster? It's another overpriced school in a bad city with questionable admission practices...unless you are rankings/prestige obsessed or can write checks for 320k it's not worth it.

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Anonymous wrote:My totally unscientific knowledge based on kids from my HS getting into different Ivies and people I've since met:

Harvard - The most overtly intellectual kids; also the ones with the highest opinions of themselves

Yale - The most flamboyant kids; also very opinionated and sure of themselves

Princeton - The best "all around kids"; super bright but not as overly intellectual as the Harvard or Yale kids

Columbia - The most diverse group of kids ethnically; proud of themselves for having navigated NYC as undergraduates

Penn - The most pre-professional of any Ivy kids and to a person will volunteer they wish they'd gotten into HYP instead

Brown - Some really smart kids who marched to the beat of a different drummer (i.e., Harvard-quality intellect, but not Harvard-strength arrogance)

Dartmouth - Not even close to the other Ivies in terms of the smarts of the students, but intensely loyal to their alma mater

Cornell - Almost everyone I knew who went there was a grounded, hardworking engineer-to-be

My take:

Harvard - NOT the most overtly intellectual kids. Agree they are the ones with the highest opinions of themselves. Not necessarily the best of the best.

Yale - The most intellectual kids. Well rounded. Not flamboyant. Great global citizens.

Princeton - Preppy and athletic. More conservative. Not as intellectual as Yale kids.

Columbia - They want the Big Apple. Got it. Wish they were located near NYU (with the benefits of being an Ivy).

Penn - Agree they are the most pre-professional of any Ivy kids. Disagree they will volunteer they wish they'd gotten into HYP instead. They tend to be the most balanced between study and social life. Very smart and social students. Philly is under rated.

Brown - Agree many kids here march to the beat of a different drummer. Yale is also an accepting place for those kinds of students.

Dartmouth - Disagree with your assertion these kids are nowhere near as smart as other Ivy students. Agree they are intensely loyal to their alma mater. Isolated but pretty environment. Harsh weather for some. Wish I was near an urban core for variety.

Cornell - Harsh weather for some. Isolated but pretty environment. Harsh weather for some. Not everyone I know from there is grounded and hardworking. Wish I was near an urban core for variety.

+ 1

-1 especially the "great global citizens" part for Yale, which makes it sound like a second-rate high school IB "programme."

Also overkill with the "harsh weather for some" line. Why isn't that also the case for Cambridge? Boston can get pretty damn cold, too.

My take:

Harvard - NOT the most overtly intellectual kids. Agree they are the ones with the highest opinions of themselves. Not necessarily the best of the best.

Yale - The most intellectual kids. Well rounded. Not flamboyant. Great global citizens.

Princeton - Preppy and athletic. More conservative. Not as intellectual as Yale kids.

Columbia - They want the Big Apple. Got it. Wish they were located near NYU (with the benefits of being an Ivy).

Penn - Agree they are the most pre-professional of any Ivy kids. Disagree they will volunteer they wish they'd gotten into HYP instead. They tend to be the most balanced between study and social life. Very smart and social students. Philly is under rated.

Brown - Agree many kids here march to the beat of a different drummer. Yale is also an accepting place for those kinds of students.

Dartmouth - Disagree with your assertion these kids are nowhere near as smart as other Ivy students. Agree they are intensely loyal to their alma mater. Isolated but pretty environment. Harsh weather for some. Wish I was near an urban core for variety.

Cornell - Harsh weather for some. Isolated but pretty environment. Harsh weather for some. Not everyone I know from there is grounded and hardworking. Wish I was near an urban core for variety.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My totally unscientific knowledge based on kids from my HS getting into different Ivies and people I've since met:

Harvard - The most overtly intellectual kids; also the ones with the highest opinions of themselves

Yale - The most flamboyant kids; also very opinionated and sure of themselves

Princeton - The best "all around kids"; super bright but not as overly intellectual as the Harvard or Yale kids

Columbia - The most diverse group of kids ethnically; proud of themselves for having navigated NYC as undergraduates

Penn - The most pre-professional of any Ivy kids and to a person will volunteer they wish they'd gotten into HYP instead

Brown - Some really smart kids who marched to the beat of a different drummer (i.e., Harvard-quality intellect, but not Harvard-strength arrogance)

Dartmouth - Not even close to the other Ivies in terms of the smarts of the students, but intensely loyal to their alma mater

Cornell - Almost everyone I knew who went there was a grounded, hardworking engineer-to-be

My take:

Harvard - NOT the most overtly intellectual kids. Agree they are the ones with the highest opinions of themselves. Not necessarily the best of the best.

Yale - The most intellectual kids. Well rounded. Not flamboyant. Great global citizens.

Princeton - Preppy and athletic. More conservative. Not as intellectual as Yale kids.

Columbia - They want the Big Apple. Got it. Wish they were located near NYU (with the benefits of being an Ivy).

Penn - Agree they are the most pre-professional of any Ivy kids. Disagree they will volunteer they wish they'd gotten into HYP instead. They tend to be the most balanced between study and social life. Very smart and social students. Philly is under rated.

Brown - Agree many kids here march to the beat of a different drummer. Yale is also an accepting place for those kinds of students.

Dartmouth - Disagree with your assertion these kids are nowhere near as smart as other Ivy students. Agree they are intensely loyal to their alma mater. Isolated but pretty environment. Harsh weather for some. Wish I was near an urban core for variety.

Cornell - Harsh weather for some. Isolated but pretty environment. Harsh weather for some. Not everyone I know from there is grounded and hardworking. Wish I was near an urban core for variety.

+ 1

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My totally unscientific knowledge based on kids from my HS getting into different Ivies and people I've since met:

Harvard - The most overtly intellectual kids; also the ones with the highest opinions of themselves

Yale - The most flamboyant kids; also very opinionated and sure of themselves

Princeton - The best "all around kids"; super bright but not as overly intellectual as the Harvard or Yale kids

Columbia - The most diverse group of kids ethnically; proud of themselves for having navigated NYC as undergraduates

Penn - The most pre-professional of any Ivy kids and to a person will volunteer they wish they'd gotten into HYP instead

Brown - Some really smart kids who marched to the beat of a different drummer (i.e., Harvard-quality intellect, but not Harvard-strength arrogance)

Dartmouth - Not even close to the other Ivies in terms of the smarts of the students, but intensely loyal to their alma mater

Cornell - Almost everyone I knew who went there was a grounded, hardworking engineer-to-be

My take:

Harvard - NOT the most overtly intellectual kids. Agree they are the ones with the highest opinions of themselves. Not necessarily the best of the best.

Yale - The most intellectual kids. Well rounded. Not flamboyant. Great global citizens.

Princeton - Preppy and athletic. More conservative. Not as intellectual as Yale kids.

Columbia - They want the Big Apple. Got it. Wish they were located near NYU (with the benefits of being an Ivy).

Penn - Agree they are the most pre-professional of any Ivy kids. Disagree they will volunteer they wish they'd gotten into HYP instead. They tend to be the most balanced between study and social life. Very smart and social students. Philly is under rated.

Brown - Agree many kids here march to the beat of a different drummer. Yale is also an accepting place for those kinds of students.

Dartmouth - Disagree with your assertion these kids are nowhere near as smart as other Ivy students. Agree they are intensely loyal to their alma mater. Isolated but pretty environment. Harsh weather for some. Wish I was near an urban core for variety.

Cornell - Harsh weather for some. Isolated but pretty environment. Harsh weather for some. Not everyone I know from there is grounded and hardworking. Wish I was near an urban core for variety.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard and Yale will always have luster. Thats not the question. The question is how many other schools are just as good, and the answer is many.

This. What’s changing is the notion of Harvard or bust.

The reality is that this isn't new to most of the country. There was a certain class of people who would attend these schools, and then they would also admit the top students from random schools across the country. It is the latter part that lead many to believe the entire school has always been the best and the brightest. Also, even the not so smart, but privileged class of students would go on to make a lot of money and get to nod to positions of leadership, because that's how it was always done. But again, that was never about the actual education.

This is so true. Our generations (X and millennial) benefited from that brief meritocratic period so we see those schools through rose-colored glasses.

Yeah. That was the era. Sure you still had athletic recruiting, legacy and donor tips but much lower URMs and no first gen. It was totally meritocratic as a result. How do you know? It was still like 65% white.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard and Yale will always have luster. Thats not the question. The question is how many other schools are just as good, and the answer is many.

This. What’s changing is the notion of Harvard or bust.

The reality is that this isn't new to most of the country. There was a certain class of people who would attend these schools, and then they would also admit the top students from random schools across the country. It is the latter part that lead many to believe the entire school has always been the best and the brightest. Also, even the not so smart, but privileged class of students would go on to make a lot of money and get to nod to positions of leadership, because that's how it was always done. But again, that was never about the actual education.

This is so true. Our generations (X and millennial) benefited from that brief meritocratic period so we see those schools through rose-colored glasses.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard and Yale will always have luster. Thats not the question. The question is how many other schools are just as good, and the answer is many.

This. What’s changing is the notion of Harvard or bust.

The reality is that this isn't new to most of the country. There was a certain class of people who would attend these schools, and then they would also admit the top students from random schools across the country. It is the latter part that lead many to believe the entire school has always been the best and the brightest. Also, even the not so smart, but privileged class of students would go on to make a lot of money and get to nod to positions of leadership, because that's how it was always done. But again, that was never about the actual education.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It used to be HYP, but think it's more Harvard, Stanford, and then maybe MIT. Then below a step, Princeton and Yale..

I agree, but Princeton hasn't gone anywhere. Largest endowment per student in the world, still has top programs in math, physics, chemistry, etc. What it lacks for in graduate school research, it makes up for in extreme undergraduate focus and probably the top undergraduate experience in the US. So I'd say HPSM all stand together.

Most Princeton kids I know wish they'd gotten into Harvard

And most Northwestern, Columbia and Emory kids wish they’d gotten into HYPSM.

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Most students with choice would take Harvard for alumni power, Princeton for smaller undergrad program, MIT for STEM and Stanford for silicone valley over Yale any given day.

My own kid chose between HYP (in at all) and chose Yale. Hated H because it feels like a tourist attraction. Didn’t want to live in CA. Two friends rejected H/P for Yale as well. So, not sure what evidence supports your claim that “most students with choice” would take others besides Yale. In my world, that just isn’t true.

My child was admitted to both Yale and Harvard and chose Yale over Harvard. It was a very close call. Some kids choose Yale, others Stanford or Harvard or Princeton or MIT. All incredible choices each with a different flavor. HYPSM are still the standard bearers.

The main thing is that Yale has fallen behind in STEM. Most kids choosing Yale over any combination of HPSM are humanities kids, which is great but the difference is that HPSM are exceptional in essentially all fields (believe it or not MIT has top economics, psychology, sociology, and political science programs). And if we're doing anecdotes, I know 2 kids who turned down Yale for Duke (same $$ at both), what does that mean then? Anecdotes can't be used to make the point.

Not a big surprise there. Wokes take over, bye bye math, science and facts.

Wokes have taken over all schools not just in the Ivy League. That is a pandemic.

Go through life without a "woke" college education, that will show em.

Super easy, as there are hundreds of excellent "non-woked" schools all around this beautiful planet we call Earth.

I bet there might be 5 non-woke schools in the top 100 ranking.

I clearly see dozens in the top 100, probably even 50-60:
https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankings/2023/world-ranking

Name the 60 non-woke schools from your obscure world ranking.

Should we care as much about woke schools outside the US?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It used to be HYP, but think it's more Harvard, Stanford, and then maybe MIT. Then below a step, Princeton and Yale..

I agree, but Princeton hasn't gone anywhere. Largest endowment per student in the world, still has top programs in math, physics, chemistry, etc. What it lacks for in graduate school research, it makes up for in extreme undergraduate focus and probably the top undergraduate experience in the US. So I'd say HPSM all stand together.

Most Princeton kids I know wish they'd gotten into Harvard

All 2 of them? I'm sure they're having a great time on that beautiful campus.

Princeton's yield is in 60% while Harvard's is in the 85% range.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It used to be HYP, but think it's more Harvard, Stanford, and then maybe MIT. Then below a step, Princeton and Yale..

I agree, but Princeton hasn't gone anywhere. Largest endowment per student in the world, still has top programs in math, physics, chemistry, etc. What it lacks for in graduate school research, it makes up for in extreme undergraduate focus and probably the top undergraduate experience in the US. So I'd say HPSM all stand together.

Most Princeton kids I know wish they'd gotten into Harvard

All 2 of them? I'm sure they're having a great time on that beautiful campus.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It used to be HYP, but think it's more Harvard, Stanford, and then maybe MIT. Then below a step, Princeton and Yale..

I agree, but Princeton hasn't gone anywhere. Largest endowment per student in the world, still has top programs in math, physics, chemistry, etc. What it lacks for in graduate school research, it makes up for in extreme undergraduate focus and probably the top undergraduate experience in the US. So I'd say HPSM all stand together.

Most Princeton kids I know wish they'd gotten into Harvard