Anonymous wrote:TL/DR but would Tulane (or any other school with a big environmental law angle) be an option? They are obviously far from T14, but are big on env. law. Their selow ranking may mean free school for your kid. Or maybe GMU in VA- they have a lot of govt connections and are fairly cheap. Prob free with good stats.

Tulane for Maritime Law only. I would do that. Best in the country.

TL/DR but would Tulane (or any other school with a big environmental law angle) be an option? They are obviously far from T14, but are big on env. law. Their selow ranking may mean free school for your kid. Or maybe GMU in VA- they have a lot of govt connections and are fairly cheap. Prob free with good stats.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don't forget about almost three years of lost income in addition to tuition, fees, books, room & board when calculating the cost of attending law school.

Law school costs have far outpaced inflation so law grads from a couple of decades ago may not really appreciate & understand why starting out as a solo practitioner or at a small law firm is economically unfeasible for many.

I worked during law school. Most of my friends had PT jobs during the year as law clerks, too. In fact, I don't know many kids who didn't.

Are you willing to share the name of your law school ?

Isn't employment during one's first year of law school prohibited or restricted by the ABA ?

You have to go to a part time program.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don't forget about almost three years of lost income in addition to tuition, fees, books, room & board when calculating the cost of attending law school.

Law school costs have far outpaced inflation so law grads from a couple of decades ago may not really appreciate & understand why starting out as a solo practitioner or at a small law firm is economically unfeasible for many.

I worked during law school. Most of my friends had PT jobs during the year as law clerks, too. In fact, I don't know many kids who didn't.

Are you willing to share the name of your law school ?

Isn't employment during one's first year of law school prohibited or restricted by the ABA ?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why so much love for GMU? It’s a right wing law school.

Believe it or not, a number of lawyers still believe that students must learn to argue all sides of a point in class, and for their clients, not just SJW woke stuff. It's supposed to be a professional school. Yale is no longer that. If you want social indoctrination you go there. If you want to learn the law you go to Scalia Law, Texas, maybe Notre Dame, etc.

Actually because it's a conservative school, those kids get good clerkships with conservative judges (there are tons of them) that kids fr higher-ranked schools are not a great fit for.

It's easier all the way up for conservative law grads (jobs on the hill, in administrations, etc.) You can get a very puffed up resume easily.

I would add that is it a strong, relatively reasonably priced law school with proximity to DC, which is great for internships year round at federal agencies and NGOs and think tanks, which is helpful for job seekers. Additionally, they have a highly ranked part time law school. Yes, Georgetown is ranked higher but it is also 1.5X the price. The students I know that went there are not conservative by the way. There is no conservative test to get in, just like JD Vance was allowed into Yale.

Anonymous wrote:Don't forget about almost three years of lost income in addition to tuition, fees, books, room & board when calculating the cost of attending law school.

Law school costs have far outpaced inflation so law grads from a couple of decades ago may not really appreciate & understand why starting out as a solo practitioner or at a small law firm is economically unfeasible for many.

I worked during law school. Most of my friends had PT jobs during the year as law clerks, too. In fact, I don't know many kids who didn't.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You MUST go to the highest ranked law school no matter what it costs, if you want to be in Big Law, where you WILL be miserable. You MUST get a Big Law job, though you WILL be miserable in Big Law, but you MUST stay to pay off your loans. Is this the wisdom of DCUM? I'm also confused why everyone is talking about law school loans when everyone on DCUM is wealthy and has saved enough to send their kids to both Ivy undergrads and Ivy grad schools. Also, everyone on DCUM has kids who CAN and WILL get into these schools, and WILL get Big Law offers.

It is confusing. I work for fed and in my agency there are many GS 14 lawyers and GS 14 non lawyers doing exactly same thing. It seems to me the only career that would justify the high cost of attendance for the law school is 1) either joining a BigLaw or 2) becoming a partner at a smaller or sole practice. Otherwise going to a law school is money losing proposition.

So the advice on this thread is either go to the highest ranked law school (T14) to increase your chance to get into a big law, which is still a big gamble because T14 schools tend to be very expensive, or go to the cheap law school to minimize the downside risk.

There's a revolving door between government and BigLaw so it's not one or the other. You can get government experience and then go cash in by moving to a senior BigLaw role. A senior role in BigLaw doesn't have the same drawbacks as being a junior associate--you may still work hard but will have much greater control over your schedule.

You've also entirely left out in house as a career goal. Many in house attorneys are well paid with reasonable schedules. You likely have to start in BigLaw to get some experience and pay off loans, but then there are options including government, in house or non-profits.

Without a book of business?

Yep. Subject matter expertise. Companies have to deal with the government and want advice on what they should do.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You MUST go to the highest ranked law school no matter what it costs, if you want to be in Big Law, where you WILL be miserable. You MUST get a Big Law job, though you WILL be miserable in Big Law, but you MUST stay to pay off your loans. Is this the wisdom of DCUM? I'm also confused why everyone is talking about law school loans when everyone on DCUM is wealthy and has saved enough to send their kids to both Ivy undergrads and Ivy grad schools. Also, everyone on DCUM has kids who CAN and WILL get into these schools, and WILL get Big Law offers.

It is confusing. I work for fed and in my agency there are many GS 14 lawyers and GS 14 non lawyers doing exactly same thing. It seems to me the only career that would justify the high cost of attendance for the law school is 1) either joining a BigLaw or 2) becoming a partner at a smaller or sole practice. Otherwise going to a law school is money losing proposition.

So the advice on this thread is either go to the highest ranked law school (T14) to increase your chance to get into a big law, which is still a big gamble because T14 schools tend to be very expensive, or go to the cheap law school to minimize the downside risk.

There's a revolving door between government and BigLaw so it's not one or the other. You can get government experience and then go cash in by moving to a senior BigLaw role. A senior role in BigLaw doesn't have the same drawbacks as being a junior associate--you may still work hard but will have much greater control over your schedule.

You've also entirely left out in house as a career goal. Many in house attorneys are well paid with reasonable schedules. You likely have to start in BigLaw to get some experience and pay off loans, but then there are options including government, in house or non-profits.

Without a book of business?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You MUST go to the highest ranked law school no matter what it costs, if you want to be in Big Law, where you WILL be miserable. You MUST get a Big Law job, though you WILL be miserable in Big Law, but you MUST stay to pay off your loans. Is this the wisdom of DCUM? I'm also confused why everyone is talking about law school loans when everyone on DCUM is wealthy and has saved enough to send their kids to both Ivy undergrads and Ivy grad schools. Also, everyone on DCUM has kids who CAN and WILL get into these schools, and WILL get Big Law offers.

It is confusing. I work for fed and in my agency there are many GS 14 lawyers and GS 14 non lawyers doing exactly same thing. It seems to me the only career that would justify the high cost of attendance for the law school is 1) either joining a BigLaw or 2) becoming a partner at a smaller or sole practice. Otherwise going to a law school is money losing proposition.

So the advice on this thread is either go to the highest ranked law school (T14) to increase your chance to get into a big law, which is still a big gamble because T14 schools tend to be very expensive, or go to the cheap law school to minimize the downside risk.

There's a revolving door between government and BigLaw so it's not one or the other. You can get government experience and then go cash in by moving to a senior BigLaw role. A senior role in BigLaw doesn't have the same drawbacks as being a junior associate--you may still work hard but will have much greater control over your schedule.

You've also entirely left out in house as a career goal. Many in house attorneys are well paid with reasonable schedules. You likely have to start in BigLaw to get some experience and pay off loans, but then there are options including government, in house or non-profits.

Don't forget about almost three years of lost income in addition to tuition, fees, books, room & board when calculating the cost of attending law school.

Law school costs have far outpaced inflation so law grads from a couple of decades ago may not really appreciate & understand why starting out as a solo practitioner or at a small law firm is economically unfeasible for many.

Anonymous wrote:You MUST go to the highest ranked law school no matter what it costs, if you want to be in Big Law, where you WILL be miserable. You MUST get a Big Law job, though you WILL be miserable in Big Law, but you MUST stay to pay off your loans. Is this the wisdom of DCUM? I'm also confused why everyone is talking about law school loans when everyone on DCUM is wealthy and has saved enough to send their kids to both Ivy undergrads and Ivy grad schools. Also, everyone on DCUM has kids who CAN and WILL get into these schools, and WILL get Big Law offers.

+1. This. I stopped taking this site seriously long ago. PPs here represent a very narrow view of the world.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is OP and this is exactly my question. ^ let's say my DS gets into UVA Law at $65+K tuition and also GMU or W&M at a much lower in state rate, what is the best move?

The best school they can get into and let the forgiveness plans sort out the debt. My “do gooder” friends are paying a tiny student loan payment a month and are about to have it all forgiven now that we are almost 10 years out.

-1

If he does not have interest in BigLaw or clerkships I would argue that GMU would be the way to go. It is well respected in the DC area and it is significantly less debt. If he wants to do environmental law I would suggest he find a job in an area he is interested in in the DC area, live in VA for the in state tuition and go to GMU part time. Also, if it turns out that he is a legal superstar and wants all those things, he can transfer to UVA his second year. I transferred from a lessor school (much lessor than either GMU or W&M) to a T14. I was a superstar at my lessor school and only received one grade below an A at my T14 law school, graduating with honors there.

I think you’re wildly underestimating how snobby “good guy” enviro law employers are. You really have to have it all: great grades, great school, great work experience.

Agreed. I'm in public interest environmental law and my field is snobby AF. I can't tell you how many of my colleagues across national and regional organizations are T14 graduates (although Lewis & Clark shows pretty well). The big groups -- Earthjustice, NRDC, EDF, similar -- value name-brand law schools, public interest work experience, and federal clerkships. Even when you're applying 20+ years out of law school, many of these groups will still require transcripts. (Sierra Club has now taken a different path -- you have to redact your undergrad and law school names from your resume -- but they've gone so far in the other direction that they allow only a resume, no cover letter even, in the name of eliminating bias (which I find highly problematic but that's another topic)). When I was around 5 years out, I interviewed at a national-level environmental NGO and the two hiring managers, who'd gone to Harvard and had to have been 15-20 years out themselves, wanted to compare/contrast with my experience at YLS.

I also agree with a PP who points out that there are no good guy environmental lawyers in private practice, although the people who do compliance would probably disagree with me about their value. Government work (either federal or state) is a mixed bag -- some white hat, some black hat, often gray hat -- because government agencies are in the business of making compromises. Public interest work is the most satisfying if you truly want to be white hat, but you will likely never make more than a BigLaw first-year associate.

Anonymous wrote:You MUST go to the highest ranked law school no matter what it costs, if you want to be in Big Law, where you WILL be miserable. You MUST get a Big Law job, though you WILL be miserable in Big Law, but you MUST stay to pay off your loans. Is this the wisdom of DCUM? I'm also confused why everyone is talking about law school loans when everyone on DCUM is wealthy and has saved enough to send their kids to both Ivy undergrads and Ivy grad schools. Also, everyone on DCUM has kids who CAN and WILL get into these schools, and WILL get Big Law offers.

It is confusing. I work for fed and in my agency there are many GS 14 lawyers and GS 14 non lawyers doing exactly same thing. It seems to me the only career that would justify the high cost of attendance for the law school is 1) either joining a BigLaw or 2) becoming a partner at a smaller or sole practice. Otherwise going to a law school is money losing proposition.

So the advice on this thread is either go to the highest ranked law school (T14) to increase your chance to get into a big law, which is still a big gamble because T14 schools tend to be very expensive, or go to the cheap law school to minimize the downside risk.

Anonymous wrote:If you are in-state for any of UVA, UMichigan, Berkeley, UCLA, UNC or UT Austin for law those are great options that should lead to fairly stable careers.

Otherwise, in this economy, you should try your best to get into Harvard Law, Stanford Law, Yale Law, Columbia Law, UChicago Law, Duke Law, UPenn Law, NYU Law, Northwestern Law, or Georgetown Law. Notre Dame, WashU, Cornell, and Banderbilt Law also tend to have great employment options.

UVA is ranked higher than several of the schools in your second paragraph.

If you are in-state for any of UVA, UMichigan, Berkeley, UCLA, UNC or UT Austin for law those are great options that should lead to fairly stable careers.

Otherwise, in this economy, you should try your best to get into Harvard Law, Stanford Law, Yale Law, Columbia Law, UChicago Law, Duke Law, UPenn Law, NYU Law, Northwestern Law, or Georgetown Law. Notre Dame, WashU, Cornell, and Banderbilt Law also tend to have great employment options.