Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not new, and it's not exclusive to DCUM. Who in your household keeps track of birthdays, doctors appointments, clothing sizes, early dismissals, permission slips, camp signups, holiday cards, and meal planning? Does that person also have a paid job?

I do all of this and have a paid job. It's not hard. Why do women seem to struggle with it?

-- Single Dad.

If you had a spouse who adds to the labor in your household (one more person to feed, one more person whose laundry needs to be done, one more person who has appointments and commitments around which family plans have to be made), but that spouse didn’t contribute equally to running the household, you might feel resentful. Also, was there anything that your wife did that you don’t do for the household? Do you entertain just as much, decorate just as much, write as many thank you cards, stay in equally in touch with extended relatives, buy as many gifts for your nieces/nephews, etc.? If you do, that’s wonderful, but you’re the exception, not the rule.

He responded. He doesn’t, he offloads everything onto his kids, who are older teens.

There’s your martyr complex again. He empowers his teens to take responsibility for their own needs, while he still provides for them financially. They will be much better off fir it in college, being self-sufficient adults, than the offspring of helicopter martyr moms when they’re out on their own for the first time after having been raised with learned helplessness because poor, abused helicopter mommy did everything for them so she could complain about it.

There is a balance to be struck with teens. There is a difference between checking out and giving kids responsibility and independence with guidance. It's not a choice between the extremes of helicopter or neglect. But checking out and calling it "giving kids independence" is disingenuous.

+1 I think the Single Dad's example of sending his daughters to the doctor alone is pretty negligent. And he never came back to talk about how he (?) managed the elementary years when the mental load is enormous.

Sending a kid old enough to drive to the doctor alone is not negligent. Raising a kid who can’t handle that might be.

Assuming that they are driving themselves. If they are, they are at least HS juniors if not seniors, so they are older teens. That's not managing it all himself.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is BS. Look I married my wife she had a good job. She got pregnant on our first anniversary. Went on maternity leave on our 22 month of marriage. Took six months off. Max amount allowed and most unpaid. Went back to work a few weeks and begged me to be a SAHM she did not want to works. I said that means I have to double my income as we need both incomes. She said focus on career I will take care of everything with kids etc.

I still did the manly things, car repairs, mowing lawn, gutter cleaning, home repairs, changing sheets, paying bills. Doing taxes, managing investments, kids games on weekends. Helping get heavy grocery shopping stuff, getting ready birthday parties and holidays. I also worked 55 hours a week.
Sorry if she cooked, sewed, wrote Xmas cards, did all bday and Xmas shopping kids. It is her job

We had three kids and she never went back. Today as example I paid $2,300 to have her car repaired, moved boxes for Xmas for her and in exchange I worked 10 hours and she is making dinner and got a kid breakfast and in the bus.

How foolish would I look if I mailed out Xmas cards and cook thanksgiving dinner when my wife does not work and she drives a $50,000 when new SUV and lives in a 1.5 million dollar home.

This is a situation where it is 100% appropriate the wife handles the mental load. That's the job she has taken on. Doesn't sound like she's asking you to do any of it but it doesn't sound at all like you value what she does either.

The unequal mental load is really an issue for couples where both work full time but all that stuff still has to get done and men either don't recognize that any of that exists or see it but refuse to do it.

The problem in this scenario is that the man earning $$$ is treating his wife as a paid employee. The attitude is “why would I do that stuff when I’m paying her to do it?” That’s troubling because it’s so transactional. And it also skips over two key issues:

1) A lot of what gets passed off as “mental load” is basic care work that helps children develop emotionally and in their relationships. Men have to take some of this on in order to have functional relationships with their kids, to build trust with them and ensure they have a second parental figure who they know cares about them. When men put this part of parenting entirely in women, even a SAHM, it’s really bad for kids (and for moms, actually). If your attitude is “well I make money so I don’t have to pay attention to what Larla is doing in school or how she feels about life” you are abdicating parental responsibility. That’s really not something you should delegate to one spouse.

2) What happens if the SAHM gets hurt it ill, has to go care for an ailing parent, etc? Some of what she does can be outsourced to [several, it must be said] paid professionals. But some, including the mental load that keeps track of who needs what when and keeps things humming cannot. A true partner will understand he has to pick up the slack. Just like a SAHM might take on a side job or seasonal work or just get a regular job if her spouse lost his job or was denied a bonus or had a bad business year.

If your marrrage is purely transactional, it’s broken. If you expect your wife to appreciate what you do because it provides money, but don’t appreciate her unpaid labor, she will be unhappy, full stop. It’s not a tenable situation. It’s not a real marriage.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I work in an elementary school and often kids are sent to school without coats in the winter. Every single time, it's when the dad drops them off. Every. Time. If you say something to the father, their reply is along the lines of "oh, she forgot to grab it this morning! Oops!" Which may be acceptable for a 5th grader, but for a kindergartener or first grader, who can't be responsible for remembering every single thing they bring to school, it's not okay. The parent needs to verify that the kid has everything. And the next day, guess what, dad forgets the coat again.

But, talking with the dads got nowhere, so now we have to say something to the moms as well if we want the kids to be warm. So now, while dad is technically doing the drop off, mom has to take on the mental load of letting dad know he forgot the coat and making sure he brings it at all future drop offs. Now mom has to pack all school things up the night before, double check that dad got everything, remind her child to grab their coat, etc. And when that's happening for multiple little things, it all starts to add up.

And, even worse, dads will have excuses like "I don't know where her coat is" or for the divorced ones, "she doesn't have a coat at my place". So it's clear they think knowing where basic necessities are isn't important since mom can do it, and that mom should be responsible for getting necessities for dad's house, too.

Saw it play out in action among 8th graders at school today.

My kids *know* if they want outdoor play time, they need to clean up after lunch. They’ve been told a million times.

Yet without fail, the boys will finish eating and then start goofing off. The girls want to go out, so their options are to either do all the cleaning themselves, or they have to nag the boys over and over to clean up. This goes on until finally lunch time is over, they lost the opportunity to go out, and the boys are pissed at me since it’s somehow my fault they can’t remember to clean. Or, girls will finish cleaning everything, I’ll let them go out, and the boys start heading out the door thinking they’re entitled to go, too, despite doing zero work.

So the girls are carrying the load of 1. Remembering to clean up and 2. Doing most of the cleaning themselves.

Pissed me off so much today that the rest of the week, girls get to go out while boys have to stay behind and clean everything. They gotta learn somehow.

You have let this play out like this for how long? Are the girls pissed at you? I would be.

No, once it starts I nip it in the bud. But definitely happens after every break, most weeks at the beginning on the week, and randomly. Like they’ll do great for a week or two, and then one day they forget it all.

It also doesn’t help that none of the other staff enforce. Today when discussing it with a coworker, she replied “just let the guys go out anyway and do the cleaning yourself. It’s easier and they need to get their energy out”. No, that’s just perpetuating the problem.

Girls have definitely expressed their frustration and I always agree with them. I’ll then have a talk with the class on why it’s wrong to shift the burden onto others. And I *always* tell the girls, when I see them cleaning up after the boys, that they aren’t expected to. Or I’ll allow them to go out since they did what was asked.

Sometimes it’s super frustrating watching girls enable the behavior. There’s a new, very pretty girl who is head over heels with the popular boy so she does EVERYTHING for him and just laps up the attention he gives her (which is usually crap like stealing her backpack or her food). I just want to yell “ITS NOT GONNA BE SO CUTE IN 20 YEARS!!!”

But why allow the girls to clean up after the boys? Why let the boys shift the burden in the first place?

I tell them not to, and often they do anyway. It's a big room and I'm trying to watch 25 kids....so, like, I'll go over to the group of guys in the right corner to tell them to clean up, and behind me in the left corner a girl is cleaning up a boy's table.

Anonymous wrote:This is BS. Look I married my wife she had a good job. She got pregnant on our first anniversary. Went on maternity leave on our 22 month of marriage. Took six months off. Max amount allowed and most unpaid. Went back to work a few weeks and begged me to be a SAHM she did not want to works. I said that means I have to double my income as we need both incomes. She said focus on career I will take care of everything with kids etc.

I still did the manly things, car repairs, mowing lawn, gutter cleaning, home repairs, changing sheets, paying bills. Doing taxes, managing investments, kids games on weekends. Helping get heavy grocery shopping stuff, getting ready birthday parties and holidays. I also worked 55 hours a week.
Sorry if she cooked, sewed, wrote Xmas cards, did all bday and Xmas shopping kids. It is her job

We had three kids and she never went back. Today as example I paid $2,300 to have her car repaired, moved boxes for Xmas for her and in exchange I worked 10 hours and she is making dinner and got a kid breakfast and in the bus.

How foolish would I look if I mailed out Xmas cards and cook thanksgiving dinner when my wife does not work and she drives a $50,000 when new SUV and lives in a 1.5 million dollar home.

Having major LOLz over manly man PP changing sheets. So macho!

Everything you listed is a "once in awhile" task. Car repairs - what, a couple times a year? Mowing the lawn - every couple weeks in the warm months only. Home repairs - every couple months. Taxes - once a year. Gutter cleaning - couple times in the fall. Kids games - well, you should be going to those anyway, it's called being a parent. Paying bills - once a month, usually automated anyway. Birthday parties and Christmas - once a year. Scrolling through your investments on your phone while you're taking a dump - how impressive. Getting heavy groceries - dude, that's just being a gentleman, what kind of POS would refuse to take in heavy groceries?

Look, I'm not saying that you should have done more. Obviously, if one parent is a SAHP, their job is to run the household and they should do the bulk of it.

But dude, you've got a piss-poor attitude. You act like you did SO. MUCH. HOUSEWORK. And ALL she did was sew, write cards, and buy Christmas gifts. And now OMG I HAD TO MOVE BOXES AND SPEND $2300 OF MY MONEY ON HER! IT'S MY MONEY! MINE!!!!1111!!1!

So glad my H isn't like you. He actually values the work I do at home and loves that we've both gotten to be more involved parents as a result. The money he makes is *our* money. He would be horrified if he found out I was struggling to move heavy things while he sat around. Oh, and he helped cook Thanksgiving dinner and we had an amazing holiday together as a family. He values our time together far more than he values getting to sit on his butt while I wait on him.

Jesus, dude. You really think people would find it foolish if you pitched in on Thanksgiving? Your wife would love it, your kids would love the time with you, and people would think you're husband of the year.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s weakness, OP. And a desperate need to be the martyr.

This is why I cringe when I see women trying to figure out how they can land a “good quality” guy. The vast majority of men think like this. I’m so glad my husband isn’t one of them but it’s not like I could be sure when I got married. It’s a crap shoot and women are just going to loose. I’m so glad my daughter is a lesbian.

Oh please. You sound like a drama Queen. It is weakness. If a woman can’t open her face hole and ask for what she needs, she is weak. Either that, or she enjoys the role of the martyr. It’s usually the second.

Face hole?

You’re a doll.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I understand that this is a real thing based on a societal expectation carried over from a time when most women didn’t work outside the home. What I don’t understand is why women like those on DCUM allow this to persist. You recognize it’s happening and yet you keep doing it? Why?

Because our children suffer the chaos if we just drop the rope. Or we have to prod and remind our husbands for each small contribution they grudgingly make, which means we're still carrying the mental load.

DP and a wife and mother of 3. I have a different take, there are three types of dudes out there

1) Sucky dudes who will never be an equal partner
2) Loving dudes who do want to be a good partner but don't know how/never had an example
3) Unicorn dudes raised by radical feminists who are great

I think there are a lot of 1s, and to those men's wives I say divorce those losers. But I also think there are a lot more 2s than we think. And I think women have a really hard time letting men fail and learn by failure and by accepting a perhaps imperfect but reasonable outcome when someone other then themselves (the guy) does something. I have listened to girlfriends go postal over battles I wouldn't even consider fighting. People who reload dishwashers that don't need to be reloaded or refold laundry that is clean but not folded to their standards.

It is difficult because the advice that the wives of 1s need is REALLY different than the advice of wives that 2s need and they get really conflated.

Some guys are garbage, but many are not, and women need to figure out how to be ok with facilitating the learning of the 2s instead of writing them off as 1s (if they are not genuinely 1s)

It says a lot about your worldview - and why your ideal men are so rare - that you admit that these men are the created in households with a "radical" belief system. Most people aren't, and don't want to be, radicals.

I thought the colloquial casual and stylistically hyperbolic style of my post was clear! C'est la vie.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not new, and it's not exclusive to DCUM. Who in your household keeps track of birthdays, doctors appointments, clothing sizes, early dismissals, permission slips, camp signups, holiday cards, and meal planning? Does that person also have a paid job?

I do all of this and have a paid job. It's not hard. Why do women seem to struggle with it?

-- Single Dad.

If you had a spouse who adds to the labor in your household (one more person to feed, one more person whose laundry needs to be done, one more person who has appointments and commitments around which family plans have to be made), but that spouse didn’t contribute equally to running the household, you might feel resentful. Also, was there anything that your wife did that you don’t do for the household? Do you entertain just as much, decorate just as much, write as many thank you cards, stay in equally in touch with extended relatives, buy as many gifts for your nieces/nephews, etc.? If you do, that’s wonderful, but you’re the exception, not the rule.

He responded. He doesn’t, he offloads everything onto his kids, who are older teens.

There’s your martyr complex again. He empowers his teens to take responsibility for their own needs, while he still provides for them financially. They will be much better off fir it in college, being self-sufficient adults, than the offspring of helicopter martyr moms when they’re out on their own for the first time after having been raised with learned helplessness because poor, abused helicopter mommy did everything for them so she could complain about it.

How am I wrong? Single Dad said he took care of the mental load and it wasn’t that hard so these women are being dramatic, but then what he actually does is offload many taste into his teens and he didn’t actually say anything he did do. So I don’t think he does get the nieces and nephews birthday gifts.

And he has some nerve saying it’s not that hard when he’s not actually doing it because his kids are old enough to do this themselves. Most of the commenters here are taking about younger kids, where the mental load for things you can point to is much bigger than it is for teens (when the mental load is a lot of emotion-based work).

I would really like to know, specifically, how my marytr complex is speaking.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s weakness, OP. And a desperate need to be the martyr.

This is why I cringe when I see women trying to figure out how they can land a “good quality” guy. The vast majority of men think like this. I’m so glad my husband isn’t one of them but it’s not like I could be sure when I got married. It’s a crap shoot and women are just going to loose. I’m so glad my daughter is a lesbian.

Oh please. You sound like a drama Queen. It is weakness. If a woman can’t open her face hole and ask for what she needs, she is weak. Either that, or she enjoys the role of the martyr. It’s usually the second.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not new, and it's not exclusive to DCUM. Who in your household keeps track of birthdays, doctors appointments, clothing sizes, early dismissals, permission slips, camp signups, holiday cards, and meal planning? Does that person also have a paid job?

I do all of this and have a paid job. It's not hard. Why do women seem to struggle with it?

-- Single Dad.

If you had a spouse who adds to the labor in your household (one more person to feed, one more person whose laundry needs to be done, one more person who has appointments and commitments around which family plans have to be made), but that spouse didn’t contribute equally to running the household, you might feel resentful. Also, was there anything that your wife did that you don’t do for the household? Do you entertain just as much, decorate just as much, write as many thank you cards, stay in equally in touch with extended relatives, buy as many gifts for your nieces/nephews, etc.? If you do, that’s wonderful, but you’re the exception, not the rule.

He responded. He doesn’t, he offloads everything onto his kids, who are older teens.

There’s your martyr complex again. He empowers his teens to take responsibility for their own needs, while he still provides for them financially. They will be much better off fir it in college, being self-sufficient adults, than the offspring of helicopter martyr moms when they’re out on their own for the first time after having been raised with learned helplessness because poor, abused helicopter mommy did everything for them so she could complain about it.

There is a balance to be struck with teens. There is a difference between checking out and giving kids responsibility and independence with guidance. It's not a choice between the extremes of helicopter or neglect. But checking out and calling it "giving kids independence" is disingenuous.

+1 I think the Single Dad's example of sending his daughters to the doctor alone is pretty negligent. And he never came back to talk about how he (?) managed the elementary years when the mental load is enormous.

Sending a kid old enough to drive to the doctor alone is not negligent. Raising a kid who can’t handle that might be.

Anonymous wrote:This is BS. Look I married my wife she had a good job. She got pregnant on our first anniversary. Went on maternity leave on our 22 month of marriage. Took six months off. Max amount allowed and most unpaid. Went back to work a few weeks and begged me to be a SAHM she did not want to works. I said that means I have to double my income as we need both incomes. She said focus on career I will take care of everything with kids etc.

I still did the manly things, car repairs, mowing lawn, gutter cleaning, home repairs, changing sheets, paying bills. Doing taxes, managing investments, kids games on weekends. Helping get heavy grocery shopping stuff, getting ready birthday parties and holidays. I also worked 55 hours a week.
Sorry if she cooked, sewed, wrote Xmas cards, did all bday and Xmas shopping kids. It is her job

We had three kids and she never went back. Today as example I paid $2,300 to have her car repaired, moved boxes for Xmas for her and in exchange I worked 10 hours and she is making dinner and got a kid breakfast and in the bus.

How foolish would I look if I mailed out Xmas cards and cook thanksgiving dinner when my wife does not work and she drives a $50,000 when new SUV and lives in a 1.5 million dollar home.

This is a situation where it is 100% appropriate the wife handles the mental load. That's the job she has taken on. Doesn't sound like she's asking you to do any of it but it doesn't sound at all like you value what she does either.

The unequal mental load is really an issue for couples where both work full time but all that stuff still has to get done and men either don't recognize that any of that exists or see it but refuse to do it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not new, and it's not exclusive to DCUM. Who in your household keeps track of birthdays, doctors appointments, clothing sizes, early dismissals, permission slips, camp signups, holiday cards, and meal planning? Does that person also have a paid job?

I do all of this and have a paid job. It's not hard. Why do women seem to struggle with it?

-- Single Dad.

If you had a spouse who adds to the labor in your household (one more person to feed, one more person whose laundry needs to be done, one more person who has appointments and commitments around which family plans have to be made), but that spouse didn’t contribute equally to running the household, you might feel resentful. Also, was there anything that your wife did that you don’t do for the household? Do you entertain just as much, decorate just as much, write as many thank you cards, stay in equally in touch with extended relatives, buy as many gifts for your nieces/nephews, etc.? If you do, that’s wonderful, but you’re the exception, not the rule.

He responded. He doesn’t, he offloads everything onto his kids, who are older teens.

There’s your martyr complex again. He empowers his teens to take responsibility for their own needs, while he still provides for them financially. They will be much better off fir it in college, being self-sufficient adults, than the offspring of helicopter martyr moms when they’re out on their own for the first time after having been raised with learned helplessness because poor, abused helicopter mommy did everything for them so she could complain about it.

There is a balance to be struck with teens. There is a difference between checking out and giving kids responsibility and independence with guidance. It's not a choice between the extremes of helicopter or neglect. But checking out and calling it "giving kids independence" is disingenuous.

+1 I think the Single Dad's example of sending his daughters to the doctor alone is pretty negligent. And he never came back to talk about how he (?) managed the elementary years when the mental load is enormous.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not new, and it's not exclusive to DCUM. Who in your household keeps track of birthdays, doctors appointments, clothing sizes, early dismissals, permission slips, camp signups, holiday cards, and meal planning? Does that person also have a paid job?

I do all of this and have a paid job. It's not hard. Why do women seem to struggle with it?

-- Single Dad.

If you had a spouse who adds to the labor in your household (one more person to feed, one more person whose laundry needs to be done, one more person who has appointments and commitments around which family plans have to be made), but that spouse didn’t contribute equally to running the household, you might feel resentful. Also, was there anything that your wife did that you don’t do for the household? Do you entertain just as much, decorate just as much, write as many thank you cards, stay in equally in touch with extended relatives, buy as many gifts for your nieces/nephews, etc.? If you do, that’s wonderful, but you’re the exception, not the rule.

He responded. He doesn’t, he offloads everything onto his kids, who are older teens.

There’s your martyr complex again. He empowers his teens to take responsibility for their own needs, while he still provides for them financially. They will be much better off fir it in college, being self-sufficient adults, than the offspring of helicopter martyr moms when they’re out on their own for the first time after having been raised with learned helplessness because poor, abused helicopter mommy did everything for them so she could complain about it.

There is a balance to be struck with teens. There is a difference between checking out and giving kids responsibility and independence with guidance. It's not a choice between the extremes of helicopter or neglect. But checking out and calling it "giving kids independence" is disingenuous.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I understand that this is a real thing based on a societal expectation carried over from a time when most women didn’t work outside the home. What I don’t understand is why women like those on DCUM allow this to persist. You recognize it’s happening and yet you keep doing it? Why?

Because our children suffer the chaos if we just drop the rope. Or we have to prod and remind our husbands for each small contribution they grudgingly make, which means we're still carrying the mental load.

DP and a wife and mother of 3. I have a different take, there are three types of dudes out there

1) Sucky dudes who will never be an equal partner
2) Loving dudes who do want to be a good partner but don't know how/never had an example
3) Unicorn dudes raised by radical feminists who are great

I think there are a lot of 1s, and to those men's wives I say divorce those losers. But I also think there are a lot more 2s than we think. And I think women have a really hard time letting men fail and learn by failure and by accepting a perhaps imperfect but reasonable outcome when someone other then themselves (the guy) does something. I have listened to girlfriends go postal over battles I wouldn't even consider fighting. People who reload dishwashers that don't need to be reloaded or refold laundry that is clean but not folded to their standards.

It is difficult because the advice that the wives of 1s need is REALLY different than the advice of wives that 2s need and they get really conflated.

Some guys are garbage, but many are not, and women need to figure out how to be ok with facilitating the learning of the 2s instead of writing them off as 1s (if they are not genuinely 1s)

It says a lot about your worldview - and why your ideal men are so rare - that you admit that these men are the created in households with a "radical" belief system. Most people aren't, and don't want to be, radicals.

Don't advertise when you don't know what words mean. Half the responses on the thread are "raise your sons better" and she says some sons actually were raised better and you think it was terrorism.

This is the money quote on mental load from a PP: "DH is completely capable of doing better. He chooses not to because this stuff doesn’t matter to him. It matters to me, so I take care of all of it."

This is why it's all on me.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I understand that this is a real thing based on a societal expectation carried over from a time when most women didn’t work outside the home. What I don’t understand is why women like those on DCUM allow this to persist. You recognize it’s happening and yet you keep doing it? Why?

Because our children suffer the chaos if we just drop the rope. Or we have to prod and remind our husbands for each small contribution they grudgingly make, which means we're still carrying the mental load.

DP and a wife and mother of 3. I have a different take, there are three types of dudes out there

1) Sucky dudes who will never be an equal partner
2) Loving dudes who do want to be a good partner but don't know how/never had an example
3) Unicorn dudes raised by radical feminists who are great

I think there are a lot of 1s, and to those men's wives I say divorce those losers. But I also think there are a lot more 2s than we think. And I think women have a really hard time letting men fail and learn by failure and by accepting a perhaps imperfect but reasonable outcome when someone other then themselves (the guy) does something. I have listened to girlfriends go postal over battles I wouldn't even consider fighting. People who reload dishwashers that don't need to be reloaded or refold laundry that is clean but not folded to their standards.

It is difficult because the advice that the wives of 1s need is REALLY different than the advice of wives that 2s need and they get really conflated.

Some guys are garbage, but many are not, and women need to figure out how to be ok with facilitating the learning of the 2s instead of writing them off as 1s (if they are not genuinely 1s)

It says a lot about your worldview - and why your ideal men are so rare - that you admit that these men are the created in households with a "radical" belief system. Most people aren't, and don't want to be, radicals.