Except that's not an accurate reflection. The team members pay fees and raise money to fund the team, and would be open to a fee increase. It's entirely possible the a big part of the issue here is that DPR isn't doing their jobs and is under utilizing the facility. The fee recovery issue could very well be largely on the rec side of the county is offering fewer classes than it used to. Absolutely no information has been provided.

The county board member shared last night that the swim program also does not recover its fees.

It’s harder to fund the competitive side and in most private programs rec is what really drives profits. So could definitely be a factor. At some point there are just diminishing margins on the competitive side due to coaching costs.

I’d love to see the numbers from before the expansion and when gymnastics was directed by internal staff as well.


As I said the tuition numbers are definitely in line with what I’m used to seeing but if anyone has info on what else team is currently paying on top of that, that could be helpful in analyzing. Most teams have a 1-2K assessment per team member per season.

The “other operational needs” is also relevant. They may be looking at another opportunity cost of the space. The adult ball hockey league was probably profitable, if I had to guess.

Most of the residents who benefit from the Barcroft facility AREN'T competitive gymnasts. Yes, the Aerials and the Tigers will be devastated at the loss of the facility, but the impact to the greater community is even larger. Most partipants are children who are interested in rec gymnastics, no different than the rec bball or rec swimming. Learning gymnastics at a young age is wonderful for building strength, developing balance and coordination, promoting fitness, teaching discipline and mental toughness and boosting confidence. Most participants eventually move on to other sports, but the foundation formed in gymnastics can help them throughout life. Stop treating it like it's some boogeyman. You don't need to be a college level gymnast to teach rec classes. Please get real. Let's also not forget that it is one of the only adaptive gymnastics programs out there and those families won't have other places to turn.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Part of the problem with not understanding competitive gym is that people think the tax payers are paying for the program. The families of those in the competitive teams, boys and girls, pay for the program outside of regular DPR fees. If DPR needs to charge them more, they are more than willing to pay.

The program is heavily subsidized by the county. And you can’t ignore that where DPS charges fees, it also has generous programs for reducing or forgiving them.

A best case for the future is an independent organization takes over and rents space *at cost* from the county. That includes hiring their own coaches, procuring their own insurance, dealing with their own scholarships, and coming to some sort of agreement with the county on equipment maintenance for equipment that is not suitable or appropriate for rec use. Like every other sports program in this county.

This. If the families in the program are actually willing to pay whatever it takes to keep the program going, why does the county need to be involved at all? Take on the costs of equipment, insurance, and coaching then. I suspect if actually faced with those costs, the families would quickly realize it's not sustainable or worth it, just like the county did.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A full fledged gymnastics program doesn't make sense.

You can provide tumbling and dance classes with far less equipment and much lower insurance costs, and that will be enough for like 95% of kids to get the exposure they need to a sport they might enjoy. The die hards can go pay for private instruction on all the apparatus (with the added risks of injury and the much higher facility costs due to the equipment and insurance requirements). There's no reason for a full scale gymnastics facility.

Focusing on sports with minimal equipment needs also makes it easier for the county to invest in coaching, clean and updated facilities, and fitness offerings that have broader social benefits. Gymnastics-obsessed kids are not some underserved demographic here.

The county can't build the boondoggle that is Long Bridge and then say it won't invest in youth sports that require specialized facilities. Besides, this program is already running and has been for nearly 50 years. The equipment is there. The building is there. Many kids are heavily invested in the program. And yes, gymnastics is underserved in Arlington. It's super hard to get into classes, with long waitlists, and there are not adequate local facilities. Just because it's not the sport your kid has chosen doesn't make it deserving of being killed. The county needs to engage on options.

Comparing Barcroft and the gymnastics program to Long Bridge and the aquatics program is a huge mistake if you want to defend the gymnastics programs. Also telling that you call it "youth sports that require specialized facilities." Because that describes gymnastics for sure, but does not describe swimming.

Long Bridge (and any swimming facility) provides things that Bancroft and a gymnastics program cannot. For starters, swimming is a life skill that saves lives. County swim programs teach basic water safety skills to people of all ages at low cost. Learning those skills prevents water deaths, not just in county swimming pools but anywhere. That's essential. Long Bridge and other swim facilities also offer ALL AGES fitness and swim classes, including a huge suite of classes for people who are 55+. Swimming is fantastic for older bodies because of how gentle it is on joints. Long Bridge offers classes for people with arthritis, deep water exercise classes which are really helpful for people with joint issues who are otherwise limited, and a host of other classes for people of ever age group. This is in addition to the youth swimming program. They also have yoga and fitness classes on site, which again are offered for all ages. The vast majority of Long Bridge's programming is geared toward all ages health, fitness, and safety, NOT competitive sport. The competitive swimming program is actually a very small part of the facilities overall usage.

That's what a county parks and rec program is for -- supporting the health and fitness of all county residents. Not training a small group of kids into a competitive sport. I know a lot of parents can't see that, but the people who run the county programs do.

Gymnastics is not an essential life skill. It is not particularly accessible for people outside the 5-17 age group, and it poses injury risks that most other county sports do not. It requires specialized equipment that can't be used in a variety of ways by a variety of people, the way a swimming pool or a general purpose gym or field can. That equipment has to be specially maintained. Gymnastics instruction also requires a specialized background. Unless you grew up doing it, it's unlikely you will ever be qualified to coach it. Whereas it's actually possible to become an aquatics fitness instructor, or a yoga instructor, within a few years of dedicated study, as an adult.

Gymnastics is niche. It's expensive. It lacks broad appeal across age groups. It's more dangerous than many sports and lacks a lot of the broad benefits like joint health. It really does not make sense for the county to be dedicating so much money, space, and staff to a program like that. There are much better ways to spend that money.

Anonymous wrote:Part of the problem with not understanding competitive gym is that people think the tax payers are paying for the program. The families of those in the competitive teams, boys and girls, pay for the program outside of regular DPR fees. If DPR needs to charge them more, they are more than willing to pay.

The program is heavily subsidized by the county. And you can’t ignore that where DPS charges fees, it also has generous programs for reducing or forgiving them.

A best case for the future is an independent organization takes over and rents space *at cost* from the county. That includes hiring their own coaches, procuring their own insurance, dealing with their own scholarships, and coming to some sort of agreement with the county on equipment maintenance for equipment that is not suitable or appropriate for rec use. Like every other sports program in this county.

Part of the problem with not understanding competitive gym is that people think the tax payers are paying for the program. The families of those in the competitive teams, boys and girls, pay for the program outside of regular DPR fees. If DPR needs to charge them more, they are more than willing to pay.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A lot of people aren’t really familiar with the ins and outs of competitive gymnastics, not unlike our county manager. Watching from the mezzanine doesn’t make one an expert.

Does one need to be an expert in competitive gymnastics to have an opinion as to whether county taxpayers should be funding a team and training program?

Except that's not an accurate reflection. The team members pay fees and raise money to fund the team, and would be open to a fee increase. It's entirely possible the a big part of the issue here is that DPR isn't doing their jobs and is under utilizing the facility. The fee recovery issue could very well be largely on the rec side of the county is offering fewer classes than it used to. Absolutely no information has been provided.

The county board member shared last night that the swim program also does not recover its fees.

Anonymous wrote:A lot of people aren’t really familiar with the ins and outs of competitive gymnastics, not unlike our county manager. Watching from the mezzanine doesn’t make one an expert.

Does one need to be an expert in competitive gymnastics to have an opinion as to whether county taxpayers should be funding a team and training program?

A lot of people aren’t really familiar with the ins and outs of competitive gymnastics, not unlike our county manager. Watching from the mezzanine doesn’t make one an expert.

Rec can get by with low beams, stacked mats for vault and they don’t need the pit for bat dismount training

Anonymous wrote:I’m glad my kid grew up in a before version of Arlington and not the one now.

Thanks for the laugh.

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not really whether demand is there. It’s should the county be doing it at all. I don’t really need to pay tax dollars so Larlas can take heavily subsidized gymnastics in prime County space that could be used to serve residents more broadly. Let alone subsidizing some kind of club gymnastics team. Who knew that was even a thing.

Private places will fill the gap eventually if the county stops doing it.

Barcroft also has baseball facilities. Should we do away with those? What about the many many soccer fields? The $$$ aquatics center and HS pools? Let’s just get rid of all youth programs so your precious tax dollars don’t have to support any of this. 🙄 Clearly we shouldn’t subsidize things you random poster don’t personally use.

I don't know the nature of the arrangement but GW paid for the upgrades to the baseball field and it's their home field and then can be used by other when not in use by them. Did the gymnastics team pay for all the improvements and equpment in the gym?

How many times is this going to come up. If individual groups want to use any of these spaces -a pool, a field, a gym, they share with others and participate in a process to rent or reserve the field or facility and pay a fee. The asset is managed by the County and shared by a wide group of people for multiple uses and it is widely available to all. This is DPR's role. Manage community assets for our recreational use. It is not their role to fund and run an elite gymanstics gym with equipment that is only needed and used by competitive gymnasts.

What upgrades? What are you talking about?

The team is always sharing the facility with rec classes. All the equipment is being used at the same time with groups rotating on a schedule. The team only gets the gym to themselves at times they don't run rec classes (e.g., holiday weeks or late evenings). At that point the incremental cost is having the lights on.

There's no separate rental fee because the team is run by the county so parents pay the county directly at the rate set by the county. They have tighter control by managing the facility directly instead of renting it to a third party.

In 2017 the County dropped several million to upgrade Barcroft.

https://www.arlingtonva.us/Government/Projects/Project-Types/Uncategorised/Barcroft-Gymnastics-Expansion-Project

And the fact the county is not charging the program sufficient fees to cover costs is why it’s on the chopping block.

DP. And acting like a rec program and a competitive program use the same equipment is disingenuous.

DP. Except they literally do. The exact same equipment. My kid took rec classes at Barcroft for years. During her 1-1.5 hour class, other classes plus multiple level of team kids were working out. The groups all rotate, and the rec kids use the same floor, bars, beam, tumble track, etc as the team kids.

I’m glad my kid grew up in a before version of Arlington and not the one now.

Parents might have to drive a little bit further for rec classes but it's not a big deal. That's how it is in this area. What about the kids on team, Xcel - that will be much harder to swallow. Nobody cares about your 4YO tots class.

Anonymous wrote:I could never get DD into any of the gymnastics classes. Waitlists didn't move. I am sorry your program is being cut, but so few people could get their kids in, that a lot of people aren't going to care either.

The other local option is Dynamic. Waitlists are 2+ years long, so if you sign your kid up for a 4-6 yo class, they'll age out before they get into a class.