Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Listening to the scanner app. This is horrible. Just wait until President Musk shuts down the FAA.

🤔

Who are these random tweeters and what do they have to do with, well, anything?

I have a question about the helicopter pilots and the "visual separation" issue that I have not seen answered on any of the (otherwise incredibly helpful) explainer videos by aviation experts.

I understand why the helicopter pilots may have identified the wrong plane visually due to the angle of the aircraft (the challenge of seeing a plane coming right at you at night in a populated area) and the possible use of night vision goggles.

But would the helicopter not have radar and be able to see that there was a plane on the radar MUCH CLOSER than the plane they may have incorrectly thought ATC was referring to?

I am confused because I would assume with three people on board, one person would be at least glancing at radar periodically (especially while passing National for obvious reasons) and could have easily checked to see where the plane they assured ATC they were maintaining "visual separation" on (twice) was indeed where they thought it was.

I am not a pilot or aviation expert at all so maybe this question is stupid but it's been bothering me. If anyone can explain or point me to a resource that will explain, I would really appreciate it. Thanks.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why were they flowing 200 feet above the maxixmum altitude. And on top of that not seeing a plane that is descending right in front of them. Seems the helicopter did so many things wrong. Doesn’t really make sense.

One question my spouse and I were just discussing is that we should find out how often helicopters flying that route along the Potomac violate the 200 ft limit for that route.

Meaning: was this helicopter doing something very out of the ordinary OR was it engaging in typical behavior (even if not prescribed behavior for helicopters on that route), and enough other stuff went on that the mistake was fatal.

I wonder if all the things that "went wrong" in this situation actually go wrong all the time, and it's just that they all went wrong at once. Which is scary because that seems like an inevitability.

Good point. I still think its crazy to think all the factors had to line up just right for the two to crash. The plane banking to go to the new runway for landing, the Blackhawk flying higher than allowed, and then just the sheer 3D geometry of it. What are the chances they actually crash into each other instead of them having a near miss?

Anonymous wrote:Why were they flowing 200 feet above the maxixmum altitude. And on top of that not seeing a plane that is descending right in front of them. Seems the helicopter did so many things wrong. Doesn’t really make sense.

One question my spouse and I were just discussing is that we should find out how often helicopters flying that route along the Potomac violate the 200 ft limit for that route.

Meaning: was this helicopter doing something very out of the ordinary OR was it engaging in typical behavior (even if not prescribed behavior for helicopters on that route), and enough other stuff went on that the mistake was fatal.

I wonder if all the things that "went wrong" in this situation actually go wrong all the time, and it's just that they all went wrong at once. Which is scary because that seems like an inevitability.

Anonymous wrote:Now hearing that the ATC scopes showed a Collision Avoidance alarm for 16 seconds before impact. Count that out. And the. Ask if having half the number of controllers is a good idea.

The helicopter pilot assumed visual separation. This means it was the helicopter’s responsible to stay out of the way of the incoming plane. If the helicopter was lower (under 200’) or saw the correct plane it could avoid the plane. Did not happen but visual separation is on the pilot not the ATC.

I stand corrected. Interesting info. How soon before crash?

Different question. In this scenario wound the actual pilot be relying on the instructor and the other guy re where they were/situational awareness?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here’s Tammy Duckworth’s interview. She set up a good narrative about how flying a helicopter is set up.

The crew chief is in the back. The instructor pilot (the one with 1000+ hrs) was the co-pilot in this case and he would have been the one talking to ATC. While the pilot on the controls and doing all the flying is the one ”sticking to the route” and using all 4 limbs to do that. In this case the pilot was the one being evaluated by the more senior co-pilot. So the person you could hear in the recording is most likely the co-pilot/instructor, not the actual pilot flying the plane

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tammy-duckworth-american-airlines-crash/?ftag=CNM-00-10aab7e&linkId=732440745

This still means that BOTH pilots got confused/mistaken about which plane they were giving "visual separation" to. Hopefully one day we will know why.

What is weird from the videos, and i could be totally wrong, is that the helo was flying straight towards the plane for several seconds. So the 1000 hour white make pilot got it wrong (too?). It wasn't a sudden manuever by the pilot that put the Helo in the plane's path.

Yes and no. The helo had been flying at 200ft as required for the airspace for most of the time and at the very last second ascended to 300ft and then 400ft just before impact for no known reason (and in violation of Class B airspace rules.) Had the Helo simply maintained its required 200ft (or less) altitude there would have been no collision.

Anonymous wrote:Why were they flowing 200 feet above the maxixmum altitude. And on top of that not seeing a plane that is descending right in front of them. Seems the helicopter did so many things wrong. Doesn’t really make sense.

Likely just tragic human error. Possible effect of night vision goggles. Other mitigating factors. Although the helo pilots certainly appear at fault, it also certainly appears to be just a tragic accident.

Anonymous wrote:Listening to the scanner app. This is horrible. Just wait until President Musk shuts down the FAA.

🤔

Why were they flowing 200 feet above the maxixmum altitude. And on top of that not seeing a plane that is descending right in front of them. Seems the helicopter did so many things wrong. Doesn’t really make sense.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pilot was Ryan Ohara from Atlanta

No, he was a passenger.

Just catching up

Do we know the pilot of the Black Hawk ?

No, there are some local news stations/family that have identified co-pilot acting as instructor and the crew chief, but nothing on the pilot

Anonymous wrote:People please watch this or one of the other great explanation videos posted before asking any more questions. Most of your questions will be answered.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3gD_lnBNu0

Thank you—this is super informative. Thinking of everyone involved.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pilot was Ryan Ohara from Atlanta

No, he was a passenger.

Just catching up

Do we know the pilot of the Black Hawk ?

I know that and the angle, the helo didn’t act like it knew that.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here’s Tammy Duckworth’s interview. She set up a good narrative about how flying a helicopter is set up.

The crew chief is in the back. The instructor pilot (the one with 1000+ hrs) was the co-pilot in this case and he would have been the one talking to ATC. While the pilot on the controls and doing all the flying is the one ”sticking to the route” and using all 4 limbs to do that. In this case the pilot was the one being evaluated by the more senior co-pilot. So the person you could hear in the recording is most likely the co-pilot/instructor, not the actual pilot flying the plane

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tammy-duckworth-american-airlines-crash/?ftag=CNM-00-10aab7e&linkId=732440745

This still means that BOTH pilots got confused/mistaken about which plane they were giving "visual separation" to. Hopefully one day we will know why.

What is weird from the videos, and i could be totally wrong, is that the helo was flying straight towards the plane for several seconds. So the 1000 hour white make pilot got it wrong (too?). It wasn't a sudden manuever by the pilot that put the Helo in the plane's path.

Yeah, I don’t know. Maybe he instructed
the pilot to decrease altitude or change course and they didn’t/couldn't/wouldn’t
in time. How much time elapses between the contact with ATC and the crash?

They were initially told about the inbound plane approaching runway 33 several minutes before the crash.

Yeah that didn’t register with anyone. The shortest, least used one. And there are only three runways.

Yeah, that’s the normal runway for regional jets.