Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Could someone repost the suggestion of whom to follow on Twitter to understand the details of this story?

There was someone with national security expertise? I just can't find it on this thread.

@steve_vladeck

How do you copy and paste Twitter posts on DCUM?
I've tried the Twitter button provided but it doesn't work.

Anonymous wrote:Could someone repost the suggestion of whom to follow on Twitter to understand the details of this story?

There was someone with national security expertise? I just can't find it on this thread.

@steve_vladeck

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Two points just made on CNN that are worth noting.

1. When the FBI reviews these documents and materials, they will not just be reviewing the substance of the documents. They will likely be fingerprinting the documents to determine who may have viewed them.

2. The existence of the documents alone would not be enough to support a finding of probable cause under the Espionage Act, so this warrant probably signals that DOJ has other evidence (probably from a witness or a written communication they obtained) of intent to share this information in a way that is contrary to national security interests. The warrant itself is only the tip of the iceberg here.

The second paragraph doesn’t make sense. Probable cause can be established by a showing that materials subject to the Espionage Act were in the possession and control of a person but are now unaccounted for and not otherwise under positive control by NARA and/or those materials are known to be located at a specified unsecured location without legal authority. The FBI obtains warrants on this basis all the time when government employees or contractors are involved in mishandling classified or confidential material.

It’s also quite possible that there was a sudden sense of urgency triggered by information obtained through intelligence, surveillance or a witness/source.

Warrants, yes, but I doubt a random employee will be CHARGED with espionage if they mistakenly bring something home they shouldn't have, absent all other proof.
Now in this case, Trump knowingly brought these documents home. But doesn't a charge of espionage need evidence of disseminating it to others? Or intent of same?

Nobody said anything about mistakenly — which is near impodddible to do. That’s blatantly moving the goalposts. Go read 18 USC sec. 793. It is not hard to parse.

Right. My question is: Will Trump be charged with espionage even if law enforcement cannot find any proof he intended to share them? Is sole possession of these docs sufficient since he should have known it was illegal to do so?

Also, if fingerprints of his employees are found on them, will they be charged too?

I bet this brings down the whole Trump family, his legal team, everyone.

How many layers of fingerprints can be read on a single document do you think?

If the fingerprints of his employees belong to foreign nationals who aren’t just cheap summer labor but are actually intelligence from those other countries, yes, they’ll be locked up here or deported or whatever they do with those people.

Dear LORD

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2017/may/16/james-risch/does-president-have-ability-declassify-anything-an/

The article tries to spin it six ways from Sunday, but the fact is, the documents are unclassified. What Trump had with him down there were documents about Russia-gate with names. The DOJ quietly gave Klinesmith the ability to practice law back. He had lost it due to altering an email used to get the FISAs re: spying at Trump tower. This is why the warrant was so darn broad. What the DOJ/FBI probably wants are documents that could potentially implicate them, because they know the mid-terms could be hell for them politically and that there would be resulting investigations by a Republican House.

But you can't declassify documents after leaving office because then you're not the President. Plus it doesn't matter if he declassified them because he broke the law either way. He's a private citizen now.

The narrative is he did it after leaving office. That's not true. He didn't break the law if the documents were declassified.

So his story is that while president he had a standing order that any document he happened to take home would be automatically deemed declassified, and then he is trying to extend that already-crazy argument to documents he packed up on the last day of office to take home permanently? But not because he needed them to work at home because his work was finished?

Yeah no.

You missed the second part. Despite the fact that he declassified all these documents, he didn't actually take them to MAL. Instead the FBI planted them there.

AND they planted Trump's fingerprints on the documents before they left them there. Don't forget that necessary part.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So, I’d like to know who the coconspirators here are because he didn’t just find that stuff and move it on his own lol.

Staffers with clearance to handle classified docs are not to blame for bringing documents to Trump's private rooms at the White House, except the documents that must not be moved from SCIFs, although I'm sure they'll claim, if ever identified, that they dared not refuse a direct order from the President. The files were then placed in boxes and Trump told the GSA to move the boxes to Mar-A-Lago. The blame very clearly lies with Trump.

Additionally, the crimes cited in the warrant show that the DOJ has significant evidence regarding the intent behind the illegal withholding of these documents: they probably have testimony from Trump's circle, and/or communications found on people's phones and laptops that they've had to turn over in the course of the multiple investigations that have occurred. Anything that has to do with dire national security will have been flagged for the FBI. The DOJ knows very well what kind of political firestorm it would start once the search became public. It's obvious there is evidence to back up the crimes investigated, beyond what the public knows about, and that the DOJ has names. Right, we just don't know who these other people are, apart from Trump, but clearly there are people who are not lowly staffers, who showed criminal intent by helping Trump secure all the docs, and perhaps sharing or attempting to share them illegally with domestic or foreign entities.

Oh yes. That’s what I mean. Everyone and anyone who was close to this better have their own lawyer and start talking if they haven’t already.

Could someone repost the suggestion of whom to follow on Twitter to understand the details of this story?

There was someone with national security expertise? I just can't find it on this thread.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Two points just made on CNN that are worth noting.

1. When the FBI reviews these documents and materials, they will not just be reviewing the substance of the documents. They will likely be fingerprinting the documents to determine who may have viewed them.

2. The existence of the documents alone would not be enough to support a finding of probable cause under the Espionage Act, so this warrant probably signals that DOJ has other evidence (probably from a witness or a written communication they obtained) of intent to share this information in a way that is contrary to national security interests. The warrant itself is only the tip of the iceberg here.

The second paragraph doesn’t make sense. Probable cause can be established by a showing that materials subject to the Espionage Act were in the possession and control of a person but are now unaccounted for and not otherwise under positive control by NARA and/or those materials are known to be located at a specified unsecured location without legal authority. The FBI obtains warrants on this basis all the time when government employees or contractors are involved in mishandling classified or confidential material.

It’s also quite possible that there was a sudden sense of urgency triggered by information obtained through intelligence, surveillance or a witness/source.

Warrants, yes, but I doubt a random employee will be CHARGED with espionage if they mistakenly bring something home they shouldn't have, absent all other proof.
Now in this case, Trump knowingly brought these documents home. But doesn't a charge of espionage need evidence of disseminating it to others? Or intent of same?

Nobody said anything about mistakenly — which is near impodddible to do. That’s blatantly moving the goalposts. Go read 18 USC sec. 793. It is not hard to parse.

Right. My question is: Will Trump be charged with espionage even if law enforcement cannot find any proof he intended to share them? Is sole possession of these docs sufficient since he should have known it was illegal to do so?

Also, if fingerprints of his employees are found on them, will they be charged too?

I bet this brings down the whole Trump family, his legal team, everyone.

How many layers of fingerprints can be read on a single document do you think?

If the fingerprints of his employees belong to foreign nationals who aren’t just cheap summer labor but are actually intelligence from those other countries, yes, they’ll be locked up here or deported or whatever they do with those people.

Dear LORD

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2017/may/16/james-risch/does-president-have-ability-declassify-anything-an/

The article tries to spin it six ways from Sunday, but the fact is, the documents are unclassified. What Trump had with him down there were documents about Russia-gate with names. The DOJ quietly gave Klinesmith the ability to practice law back. He had lost it due to altering an email used to get the FISAs re: spying at Trump tower. This is why the warrant was so darn broad. What the DOJ/FBI probably wants are documents that could potentially implicate them, because they know the mid-terms could be hell for them politically and that there would be resulting investigations by a Republican House.

But you can't declassify documents after leaving office because then you're not the President. Plus it doesn't matter if he declassified them because he broke the law either way. He's a private citizen now.

The narrative is he did it after leaving office. That's not true. He didn't break the law if the documents were declassified.

So his story is that while president he had a standing order that any document he happened to take home would be automatically deemed declassified, and then he is trying to extend that already-crazy argument to documents he packed up on the last day of office to take home permanently? But not because he needed them to work at home because his work was finished?

Yeah no.

Anyhow, you can't declassify some thing (like nuclear secrets). That's not an "oopsie" either.

Anonymous wrote:So, I’d like to know who the coconspirators here are because he didn’t just find that stuff and move it on his own lol.

Staffers with clearance to handle classified docs are not to blame for bringing documents to Trump's private rooms at the White House, except the documents that must not be moved from SCIFs, although I'm sure they'll claim, if ever identified, that they dared not refuse a direct order from the President. The files were then placed in boxes and Trump told the GSA to move the boxes to Mar-A-Lago. The blame very clearly lies with Trump.

Additionally, the crimes cited in the warrant show that the DOJ has significant evidence regarding the intent behind the illegal withholding of these documents: they probably have testimony from Trump's circle, and/or communications found on people's phones and laptops that they've had to turn over in the course of the multiple investigations that have occurred. Anything that has to do with dire national security will have been flagged for the FBI. The DOJ knows very well what kind of political firestorm it would start once the search became public. It's obvious there is evidence to back up the crimes investigated, beyond what the public knows about, and that the DOJ has names. Right, we just don't know who these other people are, apart from Trump, but clearly there are people who are not lowly staffers, who showed criminal intent by helping Trump secure all the docs, and perhaps sharing or attempting to share them illegally with domestic or foreign entities.

Who "ordered" Trump to declassify documents? Saudi Arabia?

Do the trump faithful ever stop to think that there must be an awful lot of regular government employees spending all their time doing illegal things outside the scope of their jobs in order to take him down in order for all their theories to work?
1. People in the NY AGs office
2. People in SDNY
3. People in the Atlanta DAs office
4. People in the IRS
5. People in congressional offices
6. People in the IRS
7. People in DOJ

Government employees who got to work each day to do a job, collect a paycheck are not going to risk committing crimes to take Donnie down. They just aren’t. They need to pay their bills and feed their kids.

It’s time to stop suspending reality and admit that it’s one guy committing crimes not thousands committing crimes to frame him.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Two points just made on CNN that are worth noting.

1. When the FBI reviews these documents and materials, they will not just be reviewing the substance of the documents. They will likely be fingerprinting the documents to determine who may have viewed them.

2. The existence of the documents alone would not be enough to support a finding of probable cause under the Espionage Act, so this warrant probably signals that DOJ has other evidence (probably from a witness or a written communication they obtained) of intent to share this information in a way that is contrary to national security interests. The warrant itself is only the tip of the iceberg here.

The second paragraph doesn’t make sense. Probable cause can be established by a showing that materials subject to the Espionage Act were in the possession and control of a person but are now unaccounted for and not otherwise under positive control by NARA and/or those materials are known to be located at a specified unsecured location without legal authority. The FBI obtains warrants on this basis all the time when government employees or contractors are involved in mishandling classified or confidential material.

It’s also quite possible that there was a sudden sense of urgency triggered by information obtained through intelligence, surveillance or a witness/source.

Warrants, yes, but I doubt a random employee will be CHARGED with espionage if they mistakenly bring something home they shouldn't have, absent all other proof.
Now in this case, Trump knowingly brought these documents home. But doesn't a charge of espionage need evidence of disseminating it to others? Or intent of same?

Nobody said anything about mistakenly — which is near impodddible to do. That’s blatantly moving the goalposts. Go read 18 USC sec. 793. It is not hard to parse.

Right. My question is: Will Trump be charged with espionage even if law enforcement cannot find any proof he intended to share them? Is sole possession of these docs sufficient since he should have known it was illegal to do so?

Also, if fingerprints of his employees are found on them, will they be charged too?

I bet this brings down the whole Trump family, his legal team, everyone.

How many layers of fingerprints can be read on a single document do you think?

If the fingerprints of his employees belong to foreign nationals who aren’t just cheap summer labor but are actually intelligence from those other countries, yes, they’ll be locked up here or deported or whatever they do with those people.

Dear LORD

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2017/may/16/james-risch/does-president-have-ability-declassify-anything-an/

The article tries to spin it six ways from Sunday, but the fact is, the documents are unclassified. What Trump had with him down there were documents about Russia-gate with names. The DOJ quietly gave Klinesmith the ability to practice law back. He had lost it due to altering an email used to get the FISAs re: spying at Trump tower. This is why the warrant was so darn broad. What the DOJ/FBI probably wants are documents that could potentially implicate them, because they know the mid-terms could be hell for them politically and that there would be resulting investigations by a Republican House.

But you can't declassify documents after leaving office because then you're not the President. Plus it doesn't matter if he declassified them because he broke the law either way. He's a private citizen now.

The narrative is he did it after leaving office. That's not true. He didn't break the law if the documents were declassified.

False. They were still government documents he didn't own and wasn't entitled to keep. Law broken.

This. You don’t get to keep government property, period. They easier for it back and he refused, and it so happens some of it was probably highly valuable information that out enemies would love to have. And he kept them at the private club where people pay to have access to him. Not dangerous at all right? No need to retrieve it.

God you people.

And they were actively cooperating with giving back what was wanted back, like every other past administration.

This is laughable. He had highly sensitive papers that he lied about having!

Also: this is absolutely nothing like any past administration. This isn’t normal. It’s a crime.

Anonymous wrote:So, I’d like to know who the coconspirators here are because he didn’t just find that stuff and move it on his own lol.

Maybe we get to find out.

So, I’d like to know who the coconspirators here are because he didn’t just find that stuff and move it on his own lol.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Two points just made on CNN that are worth noting.

1. When the FBI reviews these documents and materials, they will not just be reviewing the substance of the documents. They will likely be fingerprinting the documents to determine who may have viewed them.

2. The existence of the documents alone would not be enough to support a finding of probable cause under the Espionage Act, so this warrant probably signals that DOJ has other evidence (probably from a witness or a written communication they obtained) of intent to share this information in a way that is contrary to national security interests. The warrant itself is only the tip of the iceberg here.

The second paragraph doesn’t make sense. Probable cause can be established by a showing that materials subject to the Espionage Act were in the possession and control of a person but are now unaccounted for and not otherwise under positive control by NARA and/or those materials are known to be located at a specified unsecured location without legal authority. The FBI obtains warrants on this basis all the time when government employees or contractors are involved in mishandling classified or confidential material.

It’s also quite possible that there was a sudden sense of urgency triggered by information obtained through intelligence, surveillance or a witness/source.

Warrants, yes, but I doubt a random employee will be CHARGED with espionage if they mistakenly bring something home they shouldn't have, absent all other proof.
Now in this case, Trump knowingly brought these documents home. But doesn't a charge of espionage need evidence of disseminating it to others? Or intent of same?

Nobody said anything about mistakenly — which is near impodddible to do. That’s blatantly moving the goalposts. Go read 18 USC sec. 793. It is not hard to parse.

Right. My question is: Will Trump be charged with espionage even if law enforcement cannot find any proof he intended to share them? Is sole possession of these docs sufficient since he should have known it was illegal to do so?

Also, if fingerprints of his employees are found on them, will they be charged too?

I bet this brings down the whole Trump family, his legal team, everyone.

How many layers of fingerprints can be read on a single document do you think?

If the fingerprints of his employees belong to foreign nationals who aren’t just cheap summer labor but are actually intelligence from those other countries, yes, they’ll be locked up here or deported or whatever they do with those people.

Dear LORD

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2017/may/16/james-risch/does-president-have-ability-declassify-anything-an/

The article tries to spin it six ways from Sunday, but the fact is, the documents are unclassified. What Trump had with him down there were documents about Russia-gate with names. The DOJ quietly gave Klinesmith the ability to practice law back. He had lost it due to altering an email used to get the FISAs re: spying at Trump tower. This is why the warrant was so darn broad. What the DOJ/FBI probably wants are documents that could potentially implicate them, because they know the mid-terms could be hell for them politically and that there would be resulting investigations by a Republican House.

But you can't declassify documents after leaving office because then you're not the President. Plus it doesn't matter if he declassified them because he broke the law either way. He's a private citizen now.

The narrative is he did it after leaving office. That's not true. He didn't break the law if the documents were declassified.

False. They were still government documents he didn't own and wasn't entitled to keep. Law broken.

This. You don’t get to keep government property, period. They easier for it back and he refused, and it so happens some of it was probably highly valuable information that out enemies would love to have. And he kept them at the private club where people pay to have access to him. Not dangerous at all right? No need to retrieve it.

God you people.

And they were actively cooperating with giving back what was wanted back, like every other past administration.

This is laughable. He had highly sensitive papers that he lied about having!

The narrative that the DOJ and the FBI are so corrupt as to try to plant evidence or search Trump with a bogus warrant is JUST NOT CREDIBLE.

And I am certain that a good portion of Republicans trust the DOJ and the FBI far more than the President they voted for, because they know very well he's not to be trusted. They voted for him because he promised to fight for conservative values and he did, by nominating SC Justices (who then went a little far on abortion - most Republicans don't actually want such restricted abortion), but the point is, they made a pact with someone they knew to be a grifter in exchange for a few Conservative Wins, and they got the Wins.

But those same Republicans WILL NOT believe the crap that's going on right now, just like they did not approve of his attempt to stay in power on Jan 6th, and all the rest of his outrageous antics against democracy and the republic.

All of this is NOT helping his re-election prospects at all. The ones who are screaming on Truth Social for the blood of the FBI, and vituperating on Fox that Trump is a victim, do not speak for the majority of conservative voters who are leaving the Trump camp and seeking a new Conservative Champion.

If DeSantis plays his cards right during this delicate moment, they'll continue flocking to him like they've been doing ever since Trump left office.


Even if Trump is never charged and never goes to prison, his behavior post 2020 election just does not pass muster among most Republicans, and every scandal that comes out about him just adds to the stain.


He's done.

Anonymous wrote:Latest Trump defense (as of Fri, 8/12, 9:45pm)

"He had a standing order that documents removed from the Oval Office and taken into the residence were deemed to be declassified. The power to classify and declassify documents rests solely with the President of the United States. The idea that some paper-pushing bureaucrat, with classification authority delegated by the President, needs to approve of declassification is absurd."

Did he not say the evidence were planted… so are the evidences declassified or planted?