Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, I think some people like shiv so they want to justify her actions. Her choice wasn’t predicated on dollars, it was much more primitive emotions. Similar to how she stabbed Ken in the back just an episode prior. Her choice was sibling loyalty or keeping a rival from power. If it was dollars and cents driven, she would never have agreed to support Ken the night prior.

I do not like Shiv, but I don't think she voted yes on the deal to "keep a rival from power." I mean, at this point Tom is a rival and her vote made him CEO of Waystar US, a role that had been promised to her.

I also don't think it was a financial choice -- she doesn't really need the extra money the GoJo deal will net her.

I think it was a calculated choice based on what was best for her, personally, as well as what she think is best for Kendall and the company. For most of the season, Shiv has been firmly in favor of the GoJo deal. She has spoken several times about being done with Waystar and especially ATN. She really liked the idea of the Pierce deal. She only ever got on board with Kendall and Roman to tank the GoJo deal because she was so mad at Matsson for cutting her out -- THAT was a purely emotional decision. I think once she was thinking about the decision while sitting in a board room in New York, she reverted back to her previous position that she is just over it -- over Waystar, over the sibling rivalry, over the constant drive to prove something to her dad.

Shiv is an entitled ahole like the rest of them, but I think she's probably the most intelligent Roy sibling. The irony is that no one, including Logan, ever took her seriously as a potential successor, but her brothers are all much more volatile and emotional than she is. She's the only one of them who ever built a career outside Waystar that could actually be considered successful or meaningful. I think that helped her to see that they are all better off just moving on. The company does not offer them anything but grief.

+1 to all of this.

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Anonymous wrote:Colin looking out for Kendall is like a last gift from Logan. Colin is doing it out of his affection for Logan.

Why can’t the Pierce deal still go through? Aren’t the kids under contract with Pierce?

Good question. What happened to the Pierce deal?

At one point in Barbados, I think, Shiv floats the idea of letting the GoJo deal go through and proceeding with their previous plans, but the boys dismiss it. They could, theoretically, acquire Pierce with the proceeds from the GoJo deal, but that would require them to work together and that doesn’t look likely. In any case, the idea of them building/acquiring their own media empire was even more far fetched than taking over Waystar, and that was always a fantasy.

Shiv never suggests that, her mother does.

I just scrolled through to make sure I’m not getting dementia, and it was Shiv. They were sitting out on the patio drinking rum punch after Kendall arrived. Shiv suggests letting the deal go through and going back to their previous plans for The Hundred. The Mom later also suggests “a clean start” would be good at dinner, but it all just proves the same point — they were never serious about any of it and really don’t have the capacity to pull it off.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Was Kendall hurting Roman's injuries while "hugging" him? Roman looked like he was going to puke in the board meeting. The dysfunction and toxicity, wow.

Yes - he re-opened the wound on Roman's head as a show of force.

No - Roman did that to himself by pressing his wound hard onto Kendall.
DP

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Anonymous wrote:If Shiv hadn't voted for Tom, the show wouldn't have really ended. We know the kids would just be stabbing each other in the back at Waystar for the rest of their lives. With Mattson taking over the kids are forced into new lives, whatever those new lives might look like, and we'll never know. But from a writing standpoint the Shiv-Tom-Mattson ending brings (a little) more closure.

Agreed.

+2 She made a rational, sensible decision that offered relative closure. She has a child on the way, can take her fortune and get out. I like that the writers didn't include any fast forwards, just a suggestion that no matter what they'll still probably be miserable. That seems right.

Nope, she made a completely emotional decision.

Well it was the smartest.

In your opinion, it left her an empty shell of a person married to a puppet for a man she hated.

And that's your opinion.
DP

i

Read what the man who wrote the show said, that’s his opinion.

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, I think some people like shiv so they want to justify her actions. Her choice wasn’t predicated on dollars, it was much more primitive emotions. Similar to how she stabbed Ken in the back just an episode prior. Her choice was sibling loyalty or keeping a rival from power. If it was dollars and cents driven, she would never have agreed to support Ken the night prior.

Nope. You don't have to "like" Shiv to understand that what she did was the only rational choice. It had nothing to do with "keeping a rival from power."

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Anonymous wrote:If Shiv hadn't voted for Tom, the show wouldn't have really ended. We know the kids would just be stabbing each other in the back at Waystar for the rest of their lives. With Mattson taking over the kids are forced into new lives, whatever those new lives might look like, and we'll never know. But from a writing standpoint the Shiv-Tom-Mattson ending brings (a little) more closure.

Agreed.

+2 She made a rational, sensible decision that offered relative closure. She has a child on the way, can take her fortune and get out. I like that the writers didn't include any fast forwards, just a suggestion that no matter what they'll still probably be miserable. That seems right.

Nope, she made a completely emotional decision.

Well it was the smartest.

In your opinion, it left her an empty shell of a person married to a puppet for a man she hated.

And that's your opinion.
DP

Since people keep asking about the Pierce deal -- it was a handshake deal predicated on the kids getting a windfall with the GoJo deal. Nothing in writing or in process. They negotiated it at Nan's house and agreed to a number but that's not binding. Literally anything could happen with it at this point -- one of the Roy kids could team up with Stewie to try and make it happen, a total third party coming in.

But also, Succession does have a tendency to drop these thread isn somewhat sloppy ways. They've done it in the past with other business dealings. Things pop up as plot devices and then just disappear without ever being referenced again, even if realistically that's not how it would work.

Greg actually played a pivotal role in the finale. Had he not alerted Shiv, she would have gone into that board meeting still thinking she would be CEO. Only afterwards would she have been blindsided by the news that Tom was now CEO. Interesting turn of events.

Jessie Armstrong, the show's creator, on the finale:

There was an odd emotional tension. The counterpoint to that was the lovely scene we called ‘Meal Fit For A King’ with that sense of recaptured innocence. Kids just being kids, no matter what their income. Everything seemed possible, and yet…” he said. “My understanding of the show has always been that it’s a tragedy. Therefore, every moment of hope is so cruel, because we’re just waiting for that shoe to drop and waiting for their essential nature to be exposed. To break your heart again.”
“As with Tom’s betrayal at the end of Season 3, everything was always working toward this idea of Sarah’s character of Shiv ultimately sabotaging herself and sabotaging the deal,” Mylod added. “Jesse — I hate this expression — stuck the landing with this climactic showdown, if you like, between the three siblings. The final ripping off of the bandaid to expose that terrible, terrible truth put so simply by Roman — ‘We are bullsh*t’ — was so heartrending, and yet so inevitable. And good tragedy should feel inevitable, shouldn’t it?”
In a reductive, brutal way, Roman ends up exactly where he started. He is that guy still. And he maybe could have easily been a playboy jerk with some slightly nasty instincts and some quite funny jokes. He could have stayed in a bar being that guy, and this has been a bit of a detour in his life, I’d say,” Armstrong said. “Shiv is still in play, I’d say, in a rather terrifying, frozen, emotionally barren place. But she has got this kind of non-victory, non-defeat. I mean there’s gonna be some movement there. There’s still a lot of that game to play out, but that’s where we leave it, and it feels like it’s going to be hard to progress for them emotionally given the things they said to each other. For Kendall, this will never stop being the central event of his life, the central days of his life, central couple of years of his life. Maybe he could go on and start a company…but the chances of achieving the sort of corporate status that dad achieved are very low go, and I think that will mark his whole life.”
https://deadline.com/2023/05/succession-series-finale-hbo-jesse-armstrong-mark-mylod-waystar-ceo-1235382098/

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Was Kendall hurting Roman's injuries while "hugging" him? Roman looked like he was going to puke in the board meeting. The dysfunction and toxicity, wow.

My take on that scene was that Roman himself was digging his injury into Kendall's forehead. Perhaps trying to feel the pain of it all. That was a very touching and sad scene.

Interesting, could be!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Was Kendall hurting Roman's injuries while "hugging" him? Roman looked like he was going to puke in the board meeting. The dysfunction and toxicity, wow.

My take on that scene was that Roman himself was digging his injury into Kendall's forehead. Perhaps trying to feel the pain of it all. That was a very touching and sad scene.

Agreed. The same reason he threw himself into the crowd of protesters.

Anonymous wrote:Was Kendall hurting Roman's injuries while "hugging" him? Roman looked like he was going to puke in the board meeting. The dysfunction and toxicity, wow.

My take on that scene was that Roman himself was digging his injury into Kendall's forehead. Perhaps trying to feel the pain of it all. That was a very touching and sad scene.

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Anonymous wrote:I wonder if in some twisted way, Shiv thinks that voting for the deal so that Tom can become CEO might even the playing field in their marriage in a way that might make it almost functional. When their relationship started, Shiv had all the power because she had all the money, and Tom has always had to put up with abuse and disloyalty from her in order to stay in the family and maintain access to the lifestyle he wants.

But even though he's just a figurehead CEO, it's the most real power he's had in his life. He's going to get a big salary, stock options, and he'll have a ton of social power because he's now the US "face" of Waystar/GoJo. He now has real leverage in their relationship, which he's never had before. Shiv still has her billions (more than before thanks to the sale) and all the trappings of being a 1%er -- she knows all the right people and can get access to all the right places. In theory, at least, this move could allow them to operate as something akin to equals. They already have a weird power dynamic where they are both somewhat abusive of the other, maybe maintaining the tension of them both having leverage will help make that work.

Not saying Shiv's a romantic here -- I think she ultimately made a practical choice both for the company and herself. But the shot of her and Tom in the car makes me wonder if she's choosing that dynamic on purpose. Unlike her mom, she comes to the table with a lot of power, so it's not like she's signing up to be the little woman here. She can walk away any time and she doesn't need to ask Tom for anything. She's better off in a divorce now than before the GoJo deal because now she won't have to pay Tom support of any kind, he'll be too rich to justify it.

Interesting perspective. It did seem she was more interested in trying to salvage the relationship once she became pregnant.

Agree. In one scene she's asking Tom if he thinks there's anything left and he's the one saying he doesn't think so. But at the very end he reaches out his hand to her.

For her, the pregnancy could be one of several motives, among other motives like Kendall making a terrible CEO.

I wonder if Shiv and Tom take ACN in a more progressive direction. We'll never know....

I agree Shiv's decision was complicated, and did not come down to one simplistic reason.

She could either be married to the father of her baby with additional billions of dollars and freedom to do as she pleases. Or fighting with her brothers for power when she knows they all aren’t any good at running a business. Seems like an easy choice for Shiv.

The siblings have backstabbed each other many times. They will come back from this at some point.

I don't think Kendall will ever get over it. He's always ready to backstab but never takes any accountability, ever. As one PP said, he saw this as his birthright and sincerely believed he was entitled to it. Shiv needs him for exactly nothing, however. She and Roman will make peace, because he actually gets it. Kendall will continue on as the same self-centered, self-pitying person he's always been, which is why he will inevitably be alone.

DP. I do wonder if Kendall and Shiv will reconcile, though. I never thought they would after Shiv wrote that public letter about Kendall a few seasons ago. I thought for sure that was it. Yet they did reconcile. I think over time, they will again.

Hard to imagine his ever getting over this particular betrayal, but it's a nice thought!

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Greg is just Tom Jr. always angling for the best deal for him.

Yes, but stupider.

+1
I couldn't figure out why Greg chose to warn Shiv about not getting CEO. I thought his loyalties were with Tom?

Greg was playing both sides.

He was playing both sides. It was ambiguous if he knew the Tom part. I don’t think he did, and Tom didn’t tell him.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Colin looking out for Kendall is like a last gift from Logan. Colin is doing it out of his affection for Logan.

Why can’t the Pierce deal still go through? Aren’t the kids under contract with Pierce?

No the Colin looking after Kendall thing shows that he is trapped in this life. He will never get out and he will never win. His dad loved the game and loved that Colin kept him safely in the game. Kendall deep down wants out (eg to jump into that river) but he can never escape the game. None of them can.

I think that’s partially true, but it’s also the case that Colin’s presence shows that it’s a two-edged sword. Kendall will never get out, but it’s a gilded cage; his immense privilege will also always protect him from himself and his own failures. Which was part of his problem — he’s never had to earn anything, so he’s never had to become “a serious person.”