Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
#veryfakenews. FCPS did not even raise or allege there was cheating on the exam or that the same questions were used in the lawsuit defending their changes to the admissions criteria. Why? Because it didn't happen.

They probably gave kids some sample questions, general form, not the specific questions. Unless the test center was so lazy they took the money and just reused old questions.

The Quant-Q, like most standardized exams, uses multiple test forms in each of their testing windows so all of the students do not see the same questions. They draw their questions from a question bank, and it does happen (again, as with all standardized exams) that questions are repeated.

What happened at Curie is that students took the Quant-Q exam as part of their TJ admissions process, memorized them, and brought them back to Curie. This is problematic because they had signed a pledge not to do exactly that, because the Quant-Q (unlike the SAT or most standardized exams) relies on the students never having seen questions of their type before in order to assess their problem-solving skills. It doesn't test whether or not you know how to solve a specific type of problem - it tests whether or not you have the ability to solve a problem you've never seen before quickly and efficiently.

As I've mentioned repeatedly elsewhere, the Quant-Q would be a phenomenal exam to assess whether or not a student is a good fit for TJ IF AND ONLY IF they have not seen questions of that type before. It becomes less than useless, and indeed becomes a confounding variable in the admissions process, when a huge chunk of the students walk in already knowing how to solve its problems. It is no accident that the percentage of Asian students at TJ plummeted in the Class of 2022, which was the first year that the exam was used, and then magically and mysteriously returned to its previous heights in the two years afterwards.

No one reasonable is asserting that students at Curie saw all of the questions on the Quant-Q before taking the test to get into TJ. Reasonable people are aware that students at Curie saw SOME of the questions beforehand and had paid thousands of dollars to learn how to solve ALL of the question TYPES before sitting for the exam.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
#veryfakenews. FCPS did not even raise or allege there was cheating on the exam or that the same questions were used in the lawsuit defending their changes to the admissions criteria. Why? Because it didn't happen.

They probably gave kids some sample questions, general form, not the specific questions. Unless the test center was so lazy they took the money and just reused old questions.

No the students reported seeing the exact same questions.

We get it! It's been discussed ad nauseam and is well documented here and elsewhere.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
#veryfakenews. FCPS did not even raise or allege there was cheating on the exam or that the same questions were used in the lawsuit defending their changes to the admissions criteria. Why? Because it didn't happen.

They probably gave kids some sample questions, general form, not the specific questions. Unless the test center was so lazy they took the money and just reused old questions.

No the students reported seeing the exact same questions.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anyone seen the SOL trend for TJHSST for Geometery, Algebra 2, and Biology for the Pass Advanced category? Oh I forgot, only the unproctored and unverified TJHSST essay/SIS can identify in-nate talents

More likely than giving a protored exam where some students had access to the questions in advance...

To be fair, the process for picking finalists from the semifinalist pool was holistic and did not overly rely on the test scores. Kids got in who had excellent grades, excellent essays, stellar teacher recommendations, and long lists of achievements. They had a fairly comprehensive process that did find the top talents in the area. Kids who merely had high test scores and did not have a profile consistent with those test scores weren't generally admitted.

The biggest flaw with the tests was that they were gatekeepers for landing in the semifinalist pool. Thanks to prep and the Quant Q issues, the correct kids didn't necessarily land in the semifinalist pool.

Suggesting that unproctored essays have any merit whatsoever in finding talent makes you look pretty insane. It also shows just how ignorant you are of the way the old process worked. It was flat out not possible for a kid to buy TJ admissions, even if they were given all of the test answers. It was only possible to buy semifinalist status, and then the kid wouldn't get picked from there since the kid wouldn't have the recommendations, grades, and achievements consistent with a 99th percentile kid.

Oh no, you misunderstood. I don't think unproctored essays have value. They're as worthless as a test that some wealthy students can buy access to in advance.

#fakenews

Except the part where prep centers shared the test questions with those who purchased their services since that's well documented.

A couple of DC's friends who went to a well-known center made the same claims, but I also saw that in the paper.

This is not a thing you'd know unless you're deeply connected to the school, but "Curie got the Quant-Q questions from its former students and handed them to its new students" is a non-controversial statement at TJ. It's a thing people know and understand because for a while nearly a quarter of the school came from there.

I know almost everyone had the questions at least everyone who got in!

Anonymous wrote:
#veryfakenews. FCPS did not even raise or allege there was cheating on the exam or that the same questions were used in the lawsuit defending their changes to the admissions criteria. Why? Because it didn't happen.

They probably gave kids some sample questions, general form, not the specific questions. Unless the test center was so lazy they took the money and just reused old questions.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anyone seen the SOL trend for TJHSST for Geometery, Algebra 2, and Biology for the Pass Advanced category? Oh I forgot, only the unproctored and unverified TJHSST essay/SIS can identify in-nate talents

More likely than giving a protored exam where some students had access to the questions in advance...

To be fair, the process for picking finalists from the semifinalist pool was holistic and did not overly rely on the test scores. Kids got in who had excellent grades, excellent essays, stellar teacher recommendations, and long lists of achievements. They had a fairly comprehensive process that did find the top talents in the area. Kids who merely had high test scores and did not have a profile consistent with those test scores weren't generally admitted.

The biggest flaw with the tests was that they were gatekeepers for landing in the semifinalist pool. Thanks to prep and the Quant Q issues, the correct kids didn't necessarily land in the semifinalist pool.

Suggesting that unproctored essays have any merit whatsoever in finding talent makes you look pretty insane. It also shows just how ignorant you are of the way the old process worked. It was flat out not possible for a kid to buy TJ admissions, even if they were given all of the test answers. It was only possible to buy semifinalist status, and then the kid wouldn't get picked from there since the kid wouldn't have the recommendations, grades, and achievements consistent with a 99th percentile kid.

Oh no, you misunderstood. I don't think unproctored essays have value. They're as worthless as a test that some wealthy students can buy access to in advance.

#fakenews

Except the part where prep centers shared the test questions with those who purchased their services since that's well documented.

A couple of DC's friends who went to a well-known center made the same claims, but I also saw that in the paper.

#veryfakenews. FCPS did not even raise or allege there was cheating on the exam or that the same questions were used in the lawsuit defending their changes to the admissions criteria. Why? Because it didn't happen.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anyone seen the SOL trend for TJHSST for Geometery, Algebra 2, and Biology for the Pass Advanced category? Oh I forgot, only the unproctored and unverified TJHSST essay/SIS can identify in-nate talents

More likely than giving a protored exam where some students had access to the questions in advance...

To be fair, the process for picking finalists from the semifinalist pool was holistic and did not overly rely on the test scores. Kids got in who had excellent grades, excellent essays, stellar teacher recommendations, and long lists of achievements. They had a fairly comprehensive process that did find the top talents in the area. Kids who merely had high test scores and did not have a profile consistent with those test scores weren't generally admitted.

The biggest flaw with the tests was that they were gatekeepers for landing in the semifinalist pool. Thanks to prep and the Quant Q issues, the correct kids didn't necessarily land in the semifinalist pool.

Suggesting that unproctored essays have any merit whatsoever in finding talent makes you look pretty insane. It also shows just how ignorant you are of the way the old process worked. It was flat out not possible for a kid to buy TJ admissions, even if they were given all of the test answers. It was only possible to buy semifinalist status, and then the kid wouldn't get picked from there since the kid wouldn't have the recommendations, grades, and achievements consistent with a 99th percentile kid.

Oh no, you misunderstood. I don't think unproctored essays have value. They're as worthless as a test that some wealthy students can buy access to in advance.

#fakenews

Except the part where prep centers shared the test questions with those who purchased their services since that's well documented.

A couple of DC's friends who went to a well-known center made the same claims, but I also saw that in the paper.

This is not a thing you'd know unless you're deeply connected to the school, but "Curie got the Quant-Q questions from its former students and handed them to its new students" is a non-controversial statement at TJ. It's a thing people know and understand because for a while nearly a quarter of the school came from there.

Really!!! Repeating the questions year after year? Whose problem is this???

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anyone seen the SOL trend for TJHSST for Geometery, Algebra 2, and Biology for the Pass Advanced category? Oh I forgot, only the unproctored and unverified TJHSST essay/SIS can identify in-nate talents

More likely than giving a protored exam where some students had access to the questions in advance...

To be fair, the process for picking finalists from the semifinalist pool was holistic and did not overly rely on the test scores. Kids got in who had excellent grades, excellent essays, stellar teacher recommendations, and long lists of achievements. They had a fairly comprehensive process that did find the top talents in the area. Kids who merely had high test scores and did not have a profile consistent with those test scores weren't generally admitted.

The biggest flaw with the tests was that they were gatekeepers for landing in the semifinalist pool. Thanks to prep and the Quant Q issues, the correct kids didn't necessarily land in the semifinalist pool.

Suggesting that unproctored essays have any merit whatsoever in finding talent makes you look pretty insane. It also shows just how ignorant you are of the way the old process worked. It was flat out not possible for a kid to buy TJ admissions, even if they were given all of the test answers. It was only possible to buy semifinalist status, and then the kid wouldn't get picked from there since the kid wouldn't have the recommendations, grades, and achievements consistent with a 99th percentile kid.

Oh no, you misunderstood. I don't think unproctored essays have value. They're as worthless as a test that some wealthy students can buy access to in advance.

#fakenews

Except the part where prep centers shared the test questions with those who purchased their services since that's well documented.

A couple of DC's friends who went to a well-known center made the same claims, but I also saw that in the paper.

This is not a thing you'd know unless you're deeply connected to the school, but "Curie got the Quant-Q questions from its former students and handed them to its new students" is a non-controversial statement at TJ. It's a thing people know and understand because for a while nearly a quarter of the school came from there.

Yes, and that's a great reason to get rid of the Quant-Q and get rid of using any standardized test as a gatekeeper. It's not a reason to completely gut the application process, such that they're deciding admissions solely on a couple generic essays. Standardized tests, teacher recommendations, much more comprehensive essays, GPA + consideration of courses taken, and ECs all have a place in a comprehensive holistic evaluation. It's why elite colleges use all of them when deciding on admissions.

Overreliance on standardized tests in the old system made it easy for Curie to shove more kids into the school. The current system also makes it easy for places like Curie to get tons of kids admitted. It's quite easy to prep and coach kids for generic essays. The best way to filter out the mediocre, overly prepped kids is to use a very comprehensive application packet and look for inconsistencies between the test scores, EC success, teacher recommendations, and so on.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anyone seen the SOL trend for TJHSST for Geometery, Algebra 2, and Biology for the Pass Advanced category? Oh I forgot, only the unproctored and unverified TJHSST essay/SIS can identify in-nate talents

More likely than giving a protored exam where some students had access to the questions in advance...

To be fair, the process for picking finalists from the semifinalist pool was holistic and did not overly rely on the test scores. Kids got in who had excellent grades, excellent essays, stellar teacher recommendations, and long lists of achievements. They had a fairly comprehensive process that did find the top talents in the area. Kids who merely had high test scores and did not have a profile consistent with those test scores weren't generally admitted.

The biggest flaw with the tests was that they were gatekeepers for landing in the semifinalist pool. Thanks to prep and the Quant Q issues, the correct kids didn't necessarily land in the semifinalist pool.

Suggesting that unproctored essays have any merit whatsoever in finding talent makes you look pretty insane. It also shows just how ignorant you are of the way the old process worked. It was flat out not possible for a kid to buy TJ admissions, even if they were given all of the test answers. It was only possible to buy semifinalist status, and then the kid wouldn't get picked from there since the kid wouldn't have the recommendations, grades, and achievements consistent with a 99th percentile kid.

Oh no, you misunderstood. I don't think unproctored essays have value. They're as worthless as a test that some wealthy students can buy access to in advance.

#fakenews

Except the part where prep centers shared the test questions with those who purchased their services since that's well documented.

A couple of DC's friends who went to a well-known center made the same claims, but I also saw that in the paper.

This is not a thing you'd know unless you're deeply connected to the school, but "Curie got the Quant-Q questions from its former students and handed them to its new students" is a non-controversial statement at TJ. It's a thing people know and understand because for a while nearly a quarter of the school came from there.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Perhaps people want to blame COVID, but students did not do well in Math 4, to the point that the teachers sent a letter to the kids complaining about it. They were doing poorly despite an easier test, and not showing up for tutoring in 8th block.

And the questions for the test were selected by students (NOTE: They did not have to "buy" the test. It was free)

I read that many students who took the admission test claim they had seen the same questions previously at a prep center.

TJ students confirmed this back in August of 2020.

The admission changes may be imperfect but at least they put an end to that nonsense.

Yep. Curie will still get tons of kids into TJ because they have the market cornered on Indian families in Western Fairfax and Loudoun, and because Indian families are disproportionately interested in TJ. But at least they won’t be getting in because of artificially inflated scores that bump others out of the admissions process entirely.

Anything short of a strict lottery can be gamed.

And if there is in fact a way to game a lottery, I’m certain the prep companies will quickly identify it just as they did with the “ reforms”. See free meals bump, unproctured essays and renting to switch middle schools for 8th grade.

What would be great is if the Admissions Office could just be allowed to do its job free from a rubric or a publicly accessible "points system". Making TJ Admissions as difficult to game as elite college admissions would be acceptable for me.

A really hard standardized exam would be a good idea.

Standardized exams illuminate one skill and one skill alone: how good the student is at taking that particular standardized exam. Over the hundreds of years that they've exist, they have lost their original purpose because enterprising individuals have come to realize that there is a difference between being smart and being a good test-taker (although many are both) and that the latter skill is more important to admissions processes.

In the meantime, educational institutions have come to the realization that it's better for both their academic environment and their business if standardized exams are at the very most a tiny part of their evaluation process - and that they're better served having a student body that represents many different backgrounds and strengths.

Standardized test are still by far the best measure of ability even after accounting for socioeconomic factors: https://www.city-journal.org/standardized-tests

From their own website:

"City Journal is a publication of the Manhattan Institute for Policy Research (MI), a leading free-market think tank."

Try again.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anyone seen the SOL trend for TJHSST for Geometery, Algebra 2, and Biology for the Pass Advanced category? Oh I forgot, only the unproctored and unverified TJHSST essay/SIS can identify in-nate talents

More likely than giving a protored exam where some students had access to the questions in advance...

To be fair, the process for picking finalists from the semifinalist pool was holistic and did not overly rely on the test scores. Kids got in who had excellent grades, excellent essays, stellar teacher recommendations, and long lists of achievements. They had a fairly comprehensive process that did find the top talents in the area. Kids who merely had high test scores and did not have a profile consistent with those test scores weren't generally admitted.

The biggest flaw with the tests was that they were gatekeepers for landing in the semifinalist pool. Thanks to prep and the Quant Q issues, the correct kids didn't necessarily land in the semifinalist pool.

Suggesting that unproctored essays have any merit whatsoever in finding talent makes you look pretty insane. It also shows just how ignorant you are of the way the old process worked. It was flat out not possible for a kid to buy TJ admissions, even if they were given all of the test answers. It was only possible to buy semifinalist status, and then the kid wouldn't get picked from there since the kid wouldn't have the recommendations, grades, and achievements consistent with a 99th percentile kid.

Oh no, you misunderstood. I don't think unproctored essays have value. They're as worthless as a test that some wealthy students can buy access to in advance.

#fakenews

Except the part where prep centers shared the test questions with those who purchased their services since that's well documented.

A couple of DC's friends who went to a well-known center made the same claims, but I also saw that in the paper.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Perhaps people want to blame COVID, but students did not do well in Math 4, to the point that the teachers sent a letter to the kids complaining about it. They were doing poorly despite an easier test, and not showing up for tutoring in 8th block.

And the questions for the test were selected by students (NOTE: They did not have to "buy" the test. It was free)

I read that many students who took the admission test claim they had seen the same questions previously at a prep center.

TJ students confirmed this back in August of 2020.

The admission changes may be imperfect but at least they put an end to that nonsense.

Yep. Curie will still get tons of kids into TJ because they have the market cornered on Indian families in Western Fairfax and Loudoun, and because Indian families are disproportionately interested in TJ. But at least they won’t be getting in because of artificially inflated scores that bump others out of the admissions process entirely.

Anything short of a strict lottery can be gamed.

And if there is in fact a way to game a lottery, I’m certain the prep companies will quickly identify it just as they did with the “ reforms”. See free meals bump, unproctured essays and renting to switch middle schools for 8th grade.

What would be great is if the Admissions Office could just be allowed to do its job free from a rubric or a publicly accessible "points system". Making TJ Admissions as difficult to game as elite college admissions would be acceptable for me.

A really hard standardized exam would be a good idea.

Standardized exams illuminate one skill and one skill alone: how good the student is at taking that particular standardized exam. Over the hundreds of years that they've exist, they have lost their original purpose because enterprising individuals have come to realize that there is a difference between being smart and being a good test-taker (although many are both) and that the latter skill is more important to admissions processes.

In the meantime, educational institutions have come to the realization that it's better for both their academic environment and their business if standardized exams are at the very most a tiny part of their evaluation process - and that they're better served having a student body that represents many different backgrounds and strengths.

Standardized test are still by far the best measure of ability even after accounting for socioeconomic factors: https://www.city-journal.org/standardized-tests

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anyone seen the SOL trend for TJHSST for Geometery, Algebra 2, and Biology for the Pass Advanced category? Oh I forgot, only the unproctored and unverified TJHSST essay/SIS can identify in-nate talents

More likely than giving a protored exam where some students had access to the questions in advance...

To be fair, the process for picking finalists from the semifinalist pool was holistic and did not overly rely on the test scores. Kids got in who had excellent grades, excellent essays, stellar teacher recommendations, and long lists of achievements. They had a fairly comprehensive process that did find the top talents in the area. Kids who merely had high test scores and did not have a profile consistent with those test scores weren't generally admitted.

The biggest flaw with the tests was that they were gatekeepers for landing in the semifinalist pool. Thanks to prep and the Quant Q issues, the correct kids didn't necessarily land in the semifinalist pool.

Suggesting that unproctored essays have any merit whatsoever in finding talent makes you look pretty insane. It also shows just how ignorant you are of the way the old process worked. It was flat out not possible for a kid to buy TJ admissions, even if they were given all of the test answers. It was only possible to buy semifinalist status, and then the kid wouldn't get picked from there since the kid wouldn't have the recommendations, grades, and achievements consistent with a 99th percentile kid.

Oh no, you misunderstood. I don't think unproctored essays have value. They're as worthless as a test that some wealthy students can buy access to in advance.

#fakenews

Except the part where prep centers shared the test questions with those who purchased their services since that's well documented.

#veryfakenews

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Perhaps people want to blame COVID, but students did not do well in Math 4, to the point that the teachers sent a letter to the kids complaining about it. They were doing poorly despite an easier test, and not showing up for tutoring in 8th block.

And the questions for the test were selected by students (NOTE: They did not have to "buy" the test. It was free)

I read that many students who took the admission test claim they had seen the same questions previously at a prep center.

TJ students confirmed this back in August of 2020.

The admission changes may be imperfect but at least they put an end to that nonsense.

Yep. Curie will still get tons of kids into TJ because they have the market cornered on Indian families in Western Fairfax and Loudoun, and because Indian families are disproportionately interested in TJ. But at least they won’t be getting in because of artificially inflated scores that bump others out of the admissions process entirely.

Anything short of a strict lottery can be gamed.

And if there is in fact a way to game a lottery, I’m certain the prep companies will quickly identify it just as they did with the “ reforms”. See free meals bump, unproctured essays and renting to switch middle schools for 8th grade.

What would be great is if the Admissions Office could just be allowed to do its job free from a rubric or a publicly accessible "points system". Making TJ Admissions as difficult to game as elite college admissions would be acceptable for me.

A really hard standardized exam would be a good idea.

Standardized exams illuminate one skill and one skill alone: how good the student is at taking that particular standardized exam. Over the hundreds of years that they've exist, they have lost their original purpose because enterprising individuals have come to realize that there is a difference between being smart and being a good test-taker (although many are both) and that the latter skill is more important to admissions processes.

In the meantime, educational institutions have come to the realization that it's better for both their academic environment and their business if standardized exams are at the very most a tiny part of their evaluation process - and that they're better served having a student body that represents many different backgrounds and strengths.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anyone seen the SOL trend for TJHSST for Geometery, Algebra 2, and Biology for the Pass Advanced category? Oh I forgot, only the unproctored and unverified TJHSST essay/SIS can identify in-nate talents

More likely than giving a protored exam where some students had access to the questions in advance...

To be fair, the process for picking finalists from the semifinalist pool was holistic and did not overly rely on the test scores. Kids got in who had excellent grades, excellent essays, stellar teacher recommendations, and long lists of achievements. They had a fairly comprehensive process that did find the top talents in the area. Kids who merely had high test scores and did not have a profile consistent with those test scores weren't generally admitted.

The biggest flaw with the tests was that they were gatekeepers for landing in the semifinalist pool. Thanks to prep and the Quant Q issues, the correct kids didn't necessarily land in the semifinalist pool.

Suggesting that unproctored essays have any merit whatsoever in finding talent makes you look pretty insane. It also shows just how ignorant you are of the way the old process worked. It was flat out not possible for a kid to buy TJ admissions, even if they were given all of the test answers. It was only possible to buy semifinalist status, and then the kid wouldn't get picked from there since the kid wouldn't have the recommendations, grades, and achievements consistent with a 99th percentile kid.

Oh no, you misunderstood. I don't think unproctored essays have value. They're as worthless as a test that some wealthy students can buy access to in advance.

#fakenews

Except the part where prep centers shared the test questions with those who purchased their services since that's well documented.