I think a major problem is that everyone is using the word mandate in different ways.

To me, a vaccine mandate = be vaccinated or lose your job (with perhaps a small exception for medical issues). This is what the feds are now doing.

Apparently to Bowser, a vaccine mandate = "please get the vaccine and if you don't then you need to get tested every week."

Anonymous wrote:You said vaccines are subject to mandatory bargaining. Source?

The source was the WTU and ATF stating as such. You might want to reread the other thread if you are confused about "mandatory bargaining".

Anonymous wrote:There would be nothing to negotiate if WTU actually wanted a mandate. Do you think if Bowser offered every teacher a $50,000 bonus, the WTU would say, "wait, wait, wait -- we need to negotiate this first." No, they'd say thank you very much and everyone would move on.

The fact that we have a teacher vaccine "mandate" with so many holes and exceptions and literally no information WHATSOEVER about how many people are vaccinated shows the mandate we have is almost meaningless, and that is thanks to resistance by WTU.

There are always things to negotiate, if for no other reason than to ascertain the details and to make sure both sides are on the same page. In the case of the vaccine mandate details would include: the date by which vaccines would be required, what -- if any -- exemptions would be allowed, penalties for failing to abide by the mandate, how medical information related to the mandate would be handled and who would have access to it, etc.

And, yes, if Bowser offered every teacher a $50,000 bonus, the WTU would want to negotiate it. That doesn't mean -- despite your "negotiate means oppose" understanding of the word "negotiate" -- that the union would oppose it. But, it would want to make sure that all the ramifications were understood and agree upon.

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:
The WTU negotiated a number of safety issues for schools which included mandatory vaccines. That is a fact. The negotiations resulted in a mandate with WTU support.

Every time you make this false claim, I'm going to come back here and dispute it. WTU saying that vaccines are a subject of "mandatory bargaining" does NOT mean that WTU was affirmatively pushing DCPS for a vaccine mandate. It means that WTU was asserting its right to limit DCPS's ability to impose a vaccine mandate. And of course -- THERE IS NO MANDATE. Vaccination is still VOLUNTARY for WTU members and all adults in DCPS. WTU has zero, and I mean ZERO, credibility to be claiming expertise or bona fide interest in safety measures unless and until they are affirmatively pushing for vaccine mandates for all adults in DCPS. Period.

I really don't understand your hangup on this topic, especially since you have been proven wrong. Saying that something is subject to "mandatory bargaining" means that it must be negotiated. Indeed, a vaccine mandate was negotiated and approved. For some reason, you understand "negotiate" to mean "oppose". I don't know why you have this understanding, but it is wrong linguistically and it has been proven wrong factually.

Yes, teachers now have a vaccine mandate. There are medical and religious reasons -- both of which I oppose -- but those with such exemptions are subject to weekly testing. This is the same mandate faced by other DC employees.

Can you show us the provisions in the teachers collective bargaining agreement that requires vaccines to be negotiated? Because that's something specific to -- and different in -- each collective bargaining agreement.

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything other than and attempt to change the subject and/or ignore the fact that a mandate was negotiated.

You said vaccines are subject to mandatory bargaining. Source?

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:
The WTU negotiated a number of safety issues for schools which included mandatory vaccines. That is a fact. The negotiations resulted in a mandate with WTU support.

Every time you make this false claim, I'm going to come back here and dispute it. WTU saying that vaccines are a subject of "mandatory bargaining" does NOT mean that WTU was affirmatively pushing DCPS for a vaccine mandate. It means that WTU was asserting its right to limit DCPS's ability to impose a vaccine mandate. And of course -- THERE IS NO MANDATE. Vaccination is still VOLUNTARY for WTU members and all adults in DCPS. WTU has zero, and I mean ZERO, credibility to be claiming expertise or bona fide interest in safety measures unless and until they are affirmatively pushing for vaccine mandates for all adults in DCPS. Period.

I really don't understand your hangup on this topic, especially since you have been proven wrong. Saying that something is subject to "mandatory bargaining" means that it must be negotiated. Indeed, a vaccine mandate was negotiated and approved. For some reason, you understand "negotiate" to mean "oppose". I don't know why you have this understanding, but it is wrong linguistically and it has been proven wrong factually.

Yes, teachers now have a vaccine mandate. There are medical and religious reasons -- both of which I oppose -- but those with such exemptions are subject to weekly testing. This is the same mandate faced by other DC employees.

Can you show us the provisions in the teachers collective bargaining agreement that requires vaccines to be negotiated? Because that's something specific to -- and different in -- each collective bargaining agreement.

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything other than and attempt to change the subject and/or ignore the fact that a mandate was negotiated.

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:
The WTU negotiated a number of safety issues for schools which included mandatory vaccines. That is a fact. The negotiations resulted in a mandate with WTU support.

Every time you make this false claim, I'm going to come back here and dispute it. WTU saying that vaccines are a subject of "mandatory bargaining" does NOT mean that WTU was affirmatively pushing DCPS for a vaccine mandate. It means that WTU was asserting its right to limit DCPS's ability to impose a vaccine mandate. And of course -- THERE IS NO MANDATE. Vaccination is still VOLUNTARY for WTU members and all adults in DCPS. WTU has zero, and I mean ZERO, credibility to be claiming expertise or bona fide interest in safety measures unless and until they are affirmatively pushing for vaccine mandates for all adults in DCPS. Period.

I really don't understand your hangup on this topic, especially since you have been proven wrong. Saying that something is subject to "mandatory bargaining" means that it must be negotiated. Indeed, a vaccine mandate was negotiated and approved. For some reason, you understand "negotiate" to mean "oppose". I don't know why you have this understanding, but it is wrong linguistically and it has been proven wrong factually.

Yes, teachers now have a vaccine mandate. There are medical and religious reasons -- both of which I oppose -- but those with such exemptions are subject to weekly testing. This is the same mandate faced by other DC employees.

There would be nothing to negotiate if WTU actually wanted a mandate. Do you think if Bowser offered every teacher a $50,000 bonus, the WTU would say, "wait, wait, wait -- we need to negotiate this first." No, they'd say thank you very much and everyone would move on.

The fact that we have a teacher vaccine "mandate" with so many holes and exceptions and literally no information WHATSOEVER about how many people are vaccinated shows the mandate we have is almost meaningless, and that is thanks to resistance by WTU.

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:
The WTU negotiated a number of safety issues for schools which included mandatory vaccines. That is a fact. The negotiations resulted in a mandate with WTU support.

Every time you make this false claim, I'm going to come back here and dispute it. WTU saying that vaccines are a subject of "mandatory bargaining" does NOT mean that WTU was affirmatively pushing DCPS for a vaccine mandate. It means that WTU was asserting its right to limit DCPS's ability to impose a vaccine mandate. And of course -- THERE IS NO MANDATE. Vaccination is still VOLUNTARY for WTU members and all adults in DCPS. WTU has zero, and I mean ZERO, credibility to be claiming expertise or bona fide interest in safety measures unless and until they are affirmatively pushing for vaccine mandates for all adults in DCPS. Period.

I really don't understand your hangup on this topic, especially since you have been proven wrong. Saying that something is subject to "mandatory bargaining" means that it must be negotiated. Indeed, a vaccine mandate was negotiated and approved. For some reason, you understand "negotiate" to mean "oppose". I don't know why you have this understanding, but it is wrong linguistically and it has been proven wrong factually.

Yes, teachers now have a vaccine mandate. There are medical and religious reasons -- both of which I oppose -- but those with such exemptions are subject to weekly testing. This is the same mandate faced by other DC employees.

Can you show us the provisions in the teachers collective bargaining agreement that requires vaccines to be negotiated? Because that's something specific to -- and different in -- each collective bargaining agreement.

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Teacher vaccines are optional. There is no vaccine mandate for teachers. Hell, they won't even tell us how many teachers are vaccinated.

https://wtop.com/dc/2021/08/bowser-issues-covid-19-vaccine-mandate-for-dc-gov-workers/

"Bowser mandates COVID-19 vaccine for all DC government workers, teachers"

https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/covid-19-vaccine-required-for-dcps-teachers-government-employees/65-7ff3f2f1-7045-42e6-9369-f03f3f63115a

DC government employees, DCPS teachers must be fully vaccinated by September 19, Bowser says

https://www.npr.org/local/305/2021/08/10/1026378134/d-c-requires-c-o-v-i-d-19-vaccine-for-government-workers-teachers

D.C. Requires COVID-19 Vaccine For Government Workers, Teachers

https://www.washingtoninformer.com/bowser-orders-d-c-government-employees-to-get-vaccinated/

Bowser Announces Vaccine Mandate for Public School Teachers and Other D.C. Employees

The point is, they can choose to be unvaccinated. Requiring testing is nice, but not nearly as effective as vaccinating everyone.

Anonymous wrote:Teacher vaccines are optional. There is no vaccine mandate for teachers. Hell, they won't even tell us how many teachers are vaccinated.

https://wtop.com/dc/2021/08/bowser-issues-covid-19-vaccine-mandate-for-dc-gov-workers/

"Bowser mandates COVID-19 vaccine for all DC government workers, teachers"

https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/covid-19-vaccine-required-for-dcps-teachers-government-employees/65-7ff3f2f1-7045-42e6-9369-f03f3f63115a

DC government employees, DCPS teachers must be fully vaccinated by September 19, Bowser says

https://www.npr.org/local/305/2021/08/10/1026378134/d-c-requires-c-o-v-i-d-19-vaccine-for-government-workers-teachers

D.C. Requires COVID-19 Vaccine For Government Workers, Teachers

https://www.washingtoninformer.com/bowser-orders-d-c-government-employees-to-get-vaccinated/

Bowser Announces Vaccine Mandate for Public School Teachers and Other D.C. Employees

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Teachers went on strike on around Nov 2. Why are you trying to re-write history? That WTU vote you linked to was on Nov 13, AFTER teachers went on strike. And, WTU did not stop threatening to strike, which is why DCPS had to go seek a TRO against a strike in Feb.

Wrong. The teachers did not go on strike. Many teachers called in sick after DCPS tried to force school openings in unsafe conditions. That forced opening was also opposed by the Principals' Union. So, if you going to blame teachers, you should also blame principals.

The sick out was a coordinated action to stop working for a day in order to express displeasure with the plans. A sickout is a type of strike.

A "sickout", or (especially by uniformed police officers) "blue flu", is a type of strike action in which the strikers call in sick. This is used in cases where laws prohibit certain employees from declaring a strike.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_action#:~:text=A%20%22sickout%22%2C%20or%20(,employees%20from%20declaring%20a%20strike.

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:
The WTU negotiated a number of safety issues for schools which included mandatory vaccines. That is a fact. The negotiations resulted in a mandate with WTU support.

Every time you make this false claim, I'm going to come back here and dispute it. WTU saying that vaccines are a subject of "mandatory bargaining" does NOT mean that WTU was affirmatively pushing DCPS for a vaccine mandate. It means that WTU was asserting its right to limit DCPS's ability to impose a vaccine mandate. And of course -- THERE IS NO MANDATE. Vaccination is still VOLUNTARY for WTU members and all adults in DCPS. WTU has zero, and I mean ZERO, credibility to be claiming expertise or bona fide interest in safety measures unless and until they are affirmatively pushing for vaccine mandates for all adults in DCPS. Period.

I really don't understand your hangup on this topic, especially since you have been proven wrong. Saying that something is subject to "mandatory bargaining" means that it must be negotiated. Indeed, a vaccine mandate was negotiated and approved. For some reason, you understand "negotiate" to mean "oppose". I don't know why you have this understanding, but it is wrong linguistically and it has been proven wrong factually.

Yes, teachers now have a vaccine mandate. There are medical and religious reasons -- both of which I oppose -- but those with such exemptions are subject to weekly testing. This is the same mandate faced by other DC employees.

Anonymous wrote:Teachers went on strike on around Nov 2. Why are you trying to re-write history? That WTU vote you linked to was on Nov 13, AFTER teachers went on strike. And, WTU did not stop threatening to strike, which is why DCPS had to go seek a TRO against a strike in Feb.

Wrong. The teachers did not go on strike. Many teachers called in sick after DCPS tried to force school openings in unsafe conditions. That forced opening was also opposed by the Principals' Union. So, if you going to blame teachers, you should also blame principals.

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[teachers literally went ON STRIKE to keep schools closed. And WTU did not advocate for mandatory vaccines for itself or for other school staff - that’s your continued misguided and incorrect belief.

This is false. DCPS teachers did not go on strike. To the contrary, the WTU explicitly voted not to strike:

https://dcist.com/story/20/11/13/dcps-strikes-deal-with-union-on-reopening/

Despite tensions over the city’s return to classrooms, D.C. teachers will not go on strike.

The majority of Washington Teachers’ Union members voted against authorizing the union’s executive board to call a walkout, said Daniel Rosenthal, a lawyer for the union during a D.C. Superior Court hearing Tuesday.

The WTU negotiated a number of safety issues for schools which included mandatory vaccines. That is a fact. The negotiations resulted in a mandate with WTU support.

Teacher vaccines are optional. There is no vaccine mandate for teachers. Hell, they won't even tell us how many teachers are vaccinated.

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[teachers literally went ON STRIKE to keep schools closed. And WTU did not advocate for mandatory vaccines for itself or for other school staff - that’s your continued misguided and incorrect belief.

This is false. DCPS teachers did not go on strike. To the contrary, the WTU explicitly voted not to strike:

https://dcist.com/story/20/11/13/dcps-strikes-deal-with-union-on-reopening/

Despite tensions over the city’s return to classrooms, D.C. teachers will not go on strike.

The majority of Washington Teachers’ Union members voted against authorizing the union’s executive board to call a walkout, said Daniel Rosenthal, a lawyer for the union during a D.C. Superior Court hearing Tuesday.

The WTU negotiated a number of safety issues for schools which included mandatory vaccines. That is a fact. The negotiations resulted in a mandate with WTU support.

Obviously, teachers went on strike -- they refused to show up for work. But everyone agreed not to call it a strike (and WTU had this kabuki thing going about voting not to go on strike) because teacher strikes in DC are very illegal. But any normal person would look at what they did and call it a strike. The city wanted to open schools and they couldnt because teachers refused to show up. That's a strike in any commonplace sense of the word.

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[teachers literally went ON STRIKE to keep schools closed. And WTU did not advocate for mandatory vaccines for itself or for other school staff - that’s your continued misguided and incorrect belief.

This is false. DCPS teachers did not go on strike. To the contrary, the WTU explicitly voted not to strike:

https://dcist.com/story/20/11/13/dcps-strikes-deal-with-union-on-reopening/

Despite tensions over the city’s return to classrooms, D.C. teachers will not go on strike.

The majority of Washington Teachers’ Union members voted against authorizing the union’s executive board to call a walkout, said Daniel Rosenthal, a lawyer for the union during a D.C. Superior Court hearing Tuesday.

The WTU negotiated a number of safety issues for schools which included mandatory vaccines. That is a fact. The negotiations resulted in a mandate with WTU support.

Every time you make this false claim, I'm going to come back here and dispute it. WTU saying that vaccines are a subject of "mandatory bargaining" does NOT mean that WTU was affirmatively pushing DCPS for a vaccine mandate. It means that WTU was asserting its right to limit DCPS's ability to impose a vaccine mandate. And of course -- THERE IS NO MANDATE. Vaccination is still VOLUNTARY for WTU members and all adults in DCPS. WTU has zero, and I mean ZERO, credibility to be claiming expertise or bona fide interest in safety measures unless and until they are affirmatively pushing for vaccine mandates for all adults in DCPS. Period.