Anonymous wrote:Yes, it's a Virginia-wide thing. The posters on here who are against this change are just making things up at this point, making huge assumptions, and just being ignorant. They have no trust in educators and think they no better than everyone else.

First bolded point: True, but that's because VDOE is being deliberately vague about the program. If VDOE clearly stated that every child would effectively take Algebra I, Geometry, and Algebra II in 8th-10th grade, and if they clearly indicated how they expect teachers to engage all levels of math aptitude in the same classroom without just ignoring the bright students, there would be much less angst about this program. People are rightfully assuming that since their bright kids are already being ignored in their heterogeneous language arts, science, and social studies classes, the exact same thing will happen in the new math program.

Second bolded point: We have trust in educators. We don't have trust in the politicians pushing this program. Actual, in-the-classroom educators have expressed concerns that they would be unable to engage the full spectrum of math abilities in one classroom. Many have said that they would end up teaching to the lower-middle. The top kids would be ignored and the bottom would flounder without the proper supports. Why aren't the politicians listening to and trusting the teachers?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, it's a Virginia-wide thing. The posters on here who are against this change are just making things up at this point, making huge assumptions, and just being ignorant. They have no trust in educators and think they no better than everyone else.

+1

+1

Irrational and premature.

The next info session addresses a lot of these misconceptions.

Tuesday, May 25, 2021 - Advanced Pathways in Grades 11 - 12
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrbxl9wHScrWKWIEoUWNIfQ

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

People are concerned because we're not convinced anyone will be able to (easily) get calculus, period. It's not that they need *more* than calc .

Why are you "concerned"? Calculus is included as a path.

https://www.doe.virginia.gov/instruction/mathematics/vmpi/infographic-vmpi-virginia.pdf

ADVANCED
MATHEMATICS
CONCEPTS
GRADES 11-12

1 Credit Course Options
Some courses may include
Dual Enrollment and Advanced Placement
• Quantitative Reasoning
• Computer Science
• Calculus
• Statistics
• International Baccalaureate

Yes, calculus is offered, but kids will not be able to take it with just the courses offered in school. They will have to supplement with classes outside school.
These are the half credit courses that are available in 11th grade.
Data Science
• Probability and Statistics
• Geometry and Design
• Trigonometric Applications
• Applications of Advanced Algebra
• Precalculus- Focus on Functions
• Mathematical Modeling
• Financial Modeling
• Discrete Mathematics for Computing
• Sets and Logic

Students will need Trigonometry, Algebra 2, and Precalculus(which frequently includes Trig) to take Calculus.
You can't take Trig without Algebra 2, and the class listed is trig applications, which suggests they are including it in precalculus.
Normally this is a full year course, but they have it as a half course.
And the class is listed as Applications of Advanced Algebra which suggests Algebra 2 is also included in Precalculus.

Geometry & Algebra II are incorporated into the Essential Concepts courses.

https://www.lcps.org/Page/212323
“These changes include the creation of Essential Concepts courses in Grades 8-10 to replace Algebra 1, Geometry, Algebra II courses and increased options for higher level mathematics courses in Grades 11-12, including Advanced Placement courses.“

*wouldn't* benefit from taking it

Anonymous wrote:So students will have to go out of their way to take calculus. It will not be possible with a normal workload.
Go ahead and try to make a schedule.
Before students could take Algebra 1 in 8th, Geometry in 9th, Algebra 2 in 10th, Precalculus in 11th, and Calculus in 12th.
One math class a year, nothing extra.

I don't think they care. They say that not everyone needs to take calculus in high school. That's undoubtedly true, but it doesn't mean that many kids would benefit from taking it (I did, even though I didn't "need" it for my college major or grad school or career) and it shouldn't mean that it's so much more difficult for kids who want to take it to do so. That's leaving aside the significant number of kids who now are able to take post-Calculus courses in 12th. Apparently they don't want anyone to be able to do that.

So students will have to go out of their way to take calculus. It will not be possible with a normal workload.
Go ahead and try to make a schedule.
Before students could take Algebra 1 in 8th, Geometry in 9th, Algebra 2 in 10th, Precalculus in 11th, and Calculus in 12th.
One math class a year, nothing extra.

Anonymous wrote:Yes, it's a Virginia-wide thing. The posters on here who are against this change are just making things up at this point, making huge assumptions, and just being ignorant. They have no trust in educators and think they no better than everyone else.

+1

Yes, it's a Virginia-wide thing. The posters on here who are against this change are just making things up at this point, making huge assumptions, and just being ignorant. They have no trust in educators and think they no better than everyone else.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some of you really don't get it. There is systematic inequality built into the current system. It isn't that your 'advanced' kid has a "different learning style." It's that your kid grew up in a house with parents who could read their math textbook and help them with homework. Many of you DO pay for tutors. You sent your kid to a quality preschool. Your kid has had every opportunity to learn and, yes, get ahead of other kids who are just as smart, talented, and capable as your child.

This change levels the playing field. If you don't like it, tough.

The majority of us DON'T pay for tutors. The point is that we're asking for additional resources/work to help underprivileged kids who don't have the advantages of 'parents who can read their math textbook' or 'going to preschool'. Instead of saying that kids who have the advantage of a 'better' home situation must not be allowed to learn too much.

I fully believe that racial makeup does not determine ability... which tells me that the kids who aren't getting the advantages are perfectly capable of performing at the same level if they're given a couple of advantages. WHY aren't we trying to boost these kids up, instead of tearing everyone else down?

Actually, you're not asking for anything except the status quo. You didn't care about systemic inequality before it impacted your life in this way.

And YOU may not be paying for tutors, but your neighbors are using mathnasium, kuman, and all the other math places. Otherwise, they wouldn't be in business. Giving a few meager resources to underprivileged kids, when they're already behind, is not enough.

What do you think is going to happen to your snowflake when s/he learns math slightly later than the ideal time you had in your head? Do you really think this condemns them to a worse college or job? Because if you do, you need your head examined. Seriously. Like, go call a doctor. I'll hold.

What’s going to happen is that people are going to move to other school districts or go private.

Many people do not compromise on the education of their kids, especially upper SES folk. If it’s not ideal, they are going to move.

No one has solid evidence that this new approach is going to work, and upper SES parents do not like having their kids be guinea pigs. They will find a school system that provides a more traditional education because they already know it will work for them.

Driving out your upper SES families is generally bad for your school system.

Isn’t this a Virginia DOE thing? So we’d have to leave the state (or go private.) You couldn’t just move a county over.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

People are concerned because we're not convinced anyone will be able to (easily) get calculus, period. It's not that they need *more* than calc .

Why are you "concerned"? Calculus is included as a path.

https://www.doe.virginia.gov/instruction/mathematics/vmpi/infographic-vmpi-virginia.pdf

ADVANCED
MATHEMATICS
CONCEPTS
GRADES 11-12

1 Credit Course Options
Some courses may include
Dual Enrollment and Advanced Placement
• Quantitative Reasoning
• Computer Science
• Calculus
• Statistics
• International Baccalaureate

Yes, calculus is offered, but kids will not be able to take it with just the courses offered in school. They will have to supplement with classes outside school.
These are the half credit courses that are available in 11th grade.
Data Science
• Probability and Statistics
• Geometry and Design
• Trigonometric Applications
• Applications of Advanced Algebra
• Precalculus- Focus on Functions
• Mathematical Modeling
• Financial Modeling
• Discrete Mathematics for Computing
• Sets and Logic

Students will need Trigonometry, Algebra 2, and Precalculus(which frequently includes Trig) to take Calculus.
You can't take Trig without Algebra 2, and the class listed is trig applications, which suggests they are including it in precalculus.
Normally this is a full year course, but they have it as a half course.
And the class is listed as Applications of Advanced Algebra which suggests Algebra 2 is also included in Precalculus.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some of you really don't get it. There is systematic inequality built into the current system. It isn't that your 'advanced' kid has a "different learning style." It's that your kid grew up in a house with parents who could read their math textbook and help them with homework. Many of you DO pay for tutors. You sent your kid to a quality preschool. Your kid has had every opportunity to learn and, yes, get ahead of other kids who are just as smart, talented, and capable as your child.

This change levels the playing field. If you don't like it, tough.

The majority of us DON'T pay for tutors. The point is that we're asking for additional resources/work to help underprivileged kids who don't have the advantages of 'parents who can read their math textbook' or 'going to preschool'. Instead of saying that kids who have the advantage of a 'better' home situation must not be allowed to learn too much.

I fully believe that racial makeup does not determine ability... which tells me that the kids who aren't getting the advantages are perfectly capable of performing at the same level if they're given a couple of advantages. WHY aren't we trying to boost these kids up, instead of tearing everyone else down?

Actually, you're not asking for anything except the status quo. You didn't care about systemic inequality before it impacted your life in this way.

And YOU may not be paying for tutors, but your neighbors are using mathnasium, kuman, and all the other math places. Otherwise, they wouldn't be in business. Giving a few meager resources to underprivileged kids, when they're already behind, is not enough.

What do you think is going to happen to your snowflake when s/he learns math slightly later than the ideal time you had in your head? Do you really think this condemns them to a worse college or job? Because if you do, you need your head examined. Seriously. Like, go call a doctor. I'll hold.

There are lots of kids getting classes at a certain time, and now they are being held back. This does not strike me as the right direction to be going.
Not only that, now they are not just being held back, but pushed further back by pushing the classes further forward. Instead of in 7th grade algebra, they don't get 8th grade algebra but 9th grade instead.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How can you argue it’s offering multiple pathways when every kid, regardless of level, is in the exact same math class (the Bobby one offered) until 11th grade? That is the opposite of multiple pathways.

Also, please explain in detail how this “levels the playing field.”
And I fail to see how families hiring tutors or not, or helping their kids or not, should have anything to do with what math classes are offered. Multiple levels need to be offered by 9th grade at the very latest. At the end of the day, WHY a kid is behind or ahead or on grade level matters left than meeting that student’s current needs.

Why? Why do multiple levels of math need to be offered? There aren't multiple levels of any other subjects offered. There will still be AP courses. That is all the differentiation your kid will need. It is going to be so much better for kids to be able to relate and apply math to real scenarios than to memorize and regurgitate formulas. This change will make math more interesting and engaging, both for kids who are math whizzes and kids who are a bit behind their peers.

Relating and applying math is awesome, definitely need more of that. But that also has to exist with memorizing and regurgitating formulas. You have to know that stuff in order to apply it! A child who is struggling with basic arithmetic or memorizing basic multiplication facts needs the help to master that so that they can then engage in the application stuff. So the options seem to be -- we slow down the whole class while they master that and the others play computer games, move the class at the pace of the kids that are ready to have fun with the application part while the strugglers are left further behind, or break the class into appropriate ability groups (oh no, tracking!!) with the support of teachers aids, gifted resource teachers, special ed resource teachers so all the students can have their needs met. Which ever approach they take in ES, you are still going to get to MS and then HS with different students having different interest and ability levels with math. Although, if you take approach #1 they may have convinced a lot of kids who do have a strong aptitude for math that it is boring which I guess the DOE will take as a win because you won't have those kids being so annoying as to perform better than their peers.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Then these colleges are going to have to start changing their admissions expectations and I don't see that happening. Of course most people don't need calculus and I'd be happy with one of my kids on a more statistics-focused path. However, colleges expect to see calculus for a lot of majors where it really shouldn't be needed. Right now, your admission chances to a highly competitive business program will be greatly hindered by not taking (and doing well in) calculus.

Families who understand that process will make sure their kids get to calculus. Those who don't -- the first gen students this is supposed to help -- will likely get counseled early in HS to take the practical math or what interests them and then find themselves just as stuck as now.

Calm the eff down. You are so wound up about what's going to happen years from now. How old is your kid? Colleges are changing. You are making so many assumptions and winding yourself up.

I'm not wound up at all. My kids are in HS and so, fortunately, will not be affected by this. FWIW, they both did fine on the calculus path and never needed a tutor. I actually like the advanced math options for added electives. Right now a math-loving kid doesn't have any good elective options other than computer science and loving math doesn't always equate to also loving programming.

My concern is for education in the state generally and particularly for kids who don't have the advantages others do. I'd be willing to be quiet and see how it plays out if the DOE was actually providing concrete info about how these heterogenous classrooms are going to work, how they have tested this out via pilot projects and demonstrated that it is an improvement vs. other solutions, and what is the commitment to additional funding for the added teachers needed to actually engage a wide range of math ability in one class + curriculum and resources to allow for these great added depth and applications of math (LOLOLOL sure, they're going to give schools more money for this). From their plan they note that they are going to pilot the advanced class options that will be offered in 11th-12th. That's great. There is zero mention of piloting the K-10 restructuring, which seems like a massive miss in the plan. "Just trust us, this will be great" is not a way to reassure families.

Anonymous wrote:How can you argue it’s offering multiple pathways when every kid, regardless of level, is in the exact same math class (the Bobby one offered) until 11th grade? That is the opposite of multiple pathways.

Also, please explain in detail how this “levels the playing field.”
And I fail to see how families hiring tutors or not, or helping their kids or not, should have anything to do with what math classes are offered. Multiple levels need to be offered by 9th grade at the very latest. At the end of the day, WHY a kid is behind or ahead or on grade level matters left than meeting that student’s current needs.

Why? Why do multiple levels of math need to be offered? There aren't multiple levels of any other subjects offered. There will still be AP courses. That is all the differentiation your kid will need. It is going to be so much better for kids to be able to relate and apply math to real scenarios than to memorize and regurgitate formulas. This change will make math more interesting and engaging, both for kids who are math whizzes and kids who are a bit behind their peers.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lemme get this straight. You are NOW worried that rich people who live in Virginia and don't like this change in math curriculum are going to move out of state in droves? SERIOUSLY? You need medication.

I mean, the whole reason for this is that 'too many people are getting tutoring.' Right? You think lowering the speed/expectations is going to cause fewer people to move/go private/pay for tutoring? Can you explain that thinking, because I don't see how that's a likely outcome.

Wouldn't providing substantial additional resources in schools to help kids keep up/go at speed/meet high expectations cause less of a demand for this sort of thing and level the playing field better?

Nope, that's not the reason for this. There's much more going on than tutoring, and you can go back and read some more examples I wrote up thread. No one is lowering expectations of students. They are just not making calculus the be-all-end-all of HS math education. There's so much more math that's needed for STEM jobs besides calculus nowadays. VA and the many other states making this change are modernizing to keep up with high demand STEM jobs and what colleges and universities are telling them they need.

Honestly, if people leave public schools over this in favor of old school private schools who are teaching calculus to the 75 percent of kids who won't need it again, well then... good luck with that. And why are you so worried about what other people do? Hmm.

Then these colleges are going to have to start changing their admissions expectations and I don't see that happening. Of course most people don't need calculus and I'd be happy with one of my kids on a more statistics-focused path. However, colleges expect to see calculus for a lot of majors where it really shouldn't be needed. Right now, your admission chances to a highly competitive business program will be greatly hindered by not taking (and doing well in) calculus.

Families who understand that process will make sure their kids get to calculus. Those who don't -- the first gen students this is supposed to help -- will likely get counseled early in HS to take the practical math or what interests them and then find themselves just as stuck as now.

Calm the eff down. You are so wound up about what's going to happen years from now. How old is your kid? Colleges are changing. You are making so many assumptions and winding yourself up.