Anonymous wrote:I consider myself to be pretty sensitive to issues of racism. But I think it is important to be careful about attributing the crime to racial hatred before we know more.

First, there is a better and more obvious motive: sex. Either that he wanted to kill sex workers due to his internal sexual conflict, or perhaps he had a dispute with them arising from an encounter there.

Second, there is another important issue: that these women may have been victims of sex trafficking. And if so, they are the victims of two crimes and that there is another set of criminals who should be brought to justice. It's going to be tough if we mistakenly turn the human traffickers into the victims of a hate crime.

If it turns out that the motive isn't racial, we will have done an injustice by diverting attention away from other important issues, and it will be used to discredit future allegations of hate crimes. We still hear about the Duke Lacrosse scandal after fifteen years, because the prosecutor jumped the gun and the public wasn't sufficiently skeptical.

Anonymous wrote:I don't want to wade to far into the specific debate going on in this particular thread, but I think this piece on the history of fetishization of "Asian" women (in quotes, because "Asian" is such a broad, ill-defined term when people I think mean by it "Chinese/Korean/Vietnamese/Cambodian/Laotian/Japanese origin women who are petite and relatively light-skinned") is relevant: https://www.vox.com/22338807/asian-fetish-racism-atlanta-shooting

Maybe the mass murderer was a mentally ill sex-addict. Why he thought that the best way to deal with his addiction was to kill people and why he associated his specific victims with his addiction cannot possibly be disentangled from the history of sexual fetishization of women from certain parts of the Asian continent and the view of them as being simultaneously subservient and hyper-sexual.

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Anonymous wrote:It’s possible to be a racist and also to be mentally ill. But being mentally ill doesn’t excuse racism and it doesn’t make it okay to single out Asian women for mass murder.

It also doesn’t explain anything. “Mental illness” is a such a vague, amorphous blob word encompassing those of us with plain old generalized anxiety along with violent sociopaths. “Mental illness” isn’t really a common reason for people to go ape sht and murder people.

A history of domestic violence, on the other hand - that’s a huge risk factor for more violence.

Mental lllness is a HUGE risk factor when it comes to crimes. This article says 25% of the people arrested have a serious mental illness and the mentally ill are 9X more likely to go to prison than a mental hospital. That's probably an underestimate since even serious mental illnesses often don't get diagnosed. And mental illness is also associated with many other adverse outcomes such as drug abuse, homelessness, unemployment, physical illness, poverty and high school dropouts. And domestic violence too.

https://www.psycom.net/how-to-reduce-mental-illness-in-prisons

Some of the most infamous mass murders in the US were definitely or probably committed by mentally ill people who were not receiving adequate treatment.

Why don't you know about what a significant factor mental illness plays in virtually every social problem in the United States? Because every time someone brings it up, the pundits and the politicians refuse to even consider the mental illness factor and DCUM posters follow dutifully along. Every time. No matter the issue.

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s possible to be a racist and also to be mentally ill. But being mentally ill doesn’t excuse racism and it doesn’t make it okay to single out Asian women for mass murder.

It also doesn’t explain anything. “Mental illness” is a such a vague, amorphous blob word encompassing those of us with plain old generalized anxiety along with violent sociopaths. “Mental illness” isn’t really a common reason for people to go ape sht and murder people.

A history of domestic violence, on the other hand - that’s a huge risk factor for more violence.

Mental lllness is a HUGE risk factor when it comes to crimes. This article says 25% of the people arrested have a serious mental illness and the mentally ill are 9X more likely to go to prison than a mental hospital. That's probably an underestimate since even serious mental illnesses often don't get diagnosed. And mental illness is also associated with many other adverse outcomes such as drug abuse, homelessness, unemployment, physical illness, poverty and high school dropouts. And domestic violence too.

https://www.psycom.net/how-to-reduce-mental-illness-in-prisons

Some of the most infamous mass murders in the US were definitely or probably committed by mentally ill people who were not receiving adequate treatment.

Why don't you know about what a significant factor mental illness plays in virtually every social problem in the United States? Because every time someone brings it up, the pundits and the politicians refuse to even consider the mental illness factor and DCUM posters follow dutifully along. Every time. No matter the issue.

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Anonymous wrote:It’s possible to be a racist and also to be mentally ill. But being mentally ill doesn’t excuse racism and it doesn’t make it okay to single out Asian women for mass murder.

It also doesn’t explain anything. “Mental illness” is a such a vague, amorphous blob word encompassing those of us with plain old generalized anxiety along with violent sociopaths. “Mental illness” isn’t really a common reason for people to go ape sht and murder people.

A history of domestic violence, on the other hand - that’s a huge risk factor for more violence.

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An expert wouldn't talk like the PhD person. An expert wouldn't insist their opinion was fact. Might they speculate about a likelihood? Sure. But they would be honest about it being a speculation based on historical context and available facts. The only fact that ties this to race is the identify of two-thirds of the victims (including the one who survived). But because this happened in places that provide massage and sexual services, it's equally tied to that. These two things are connected because of traffickers and business owners who run many of these businesses being Asian or hiring or trafficking Asian women (I don't know the numbers but enough that it's a known thing these businesses exist). If you don't like that some of these businesses are operated and staffed by Asian people, or feel women are being exploited, you are free to work to shut them down and fight trafficking. An investigation should work to factor these variables out to determine if this was a hate crime. Thus far there hasn't been anything obvious indicating the perpetrator hates Asian people. There is some evidence he was angry about sex services. Maybe something related to race will be found still. Most of the skeptics here seem to agree that it's entirely possibly this will end up being a hate crime, but there isn't evidence so far. Others are insisting it's a hate crime no matter what. I'm not sure what the motivation is.

It's a horrific tragedy and speaks to the need for gun control above all. If this guy had had a 3 day waiting period maybe none of this would have happened.

It's obvious that you do not have a PhD. PhDs trade in facts and opinion. And there are many, many relevant historical facts that tie the mass murder of Asian women to a long history of the objectification and sexualization of Asian women. The purpose of someone with a PhD is to provide a depth and breadth of information and informed analysis.

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An expert wouldn't talk like the PhD person. An expert wouldn't insist their opinion was fact. Might they speculate about a likelihood? Sure. But they would be honest about it being a speculation based on historical context and available facts. The only fact that ties this to race is the identify of two-thirds of the victims (including the one who survived). But because this happened in places that provide massage and sexual services, it's equally tied to that. These two things are connected because of traffickers and business owners who run many of these businesses being Asian or hiring or trafficking Asian women (I don't know the numbers but enough that it's a known thing these businesses exist). If you don't like that some of these businesses are operated and staffed by Asian people, or feel women are being exploited, you are free to work to shut them down and fight trafficking. An investigation should work to factor these variables out to determine if this was a hate crime. Thus far there hasn't been anything obvious indicating the perpetrator hates Asian people. There is some evidence he was angry about sex services. Maybe something related to race will be found still. Most of the skeptics here seem to agree that it's entirely possibly this will end up being a hate crime, but there isn't evidence so far. Others are insisting it's a hate crime no matter what. I'm not sure what the motivation is.

It's a horrific tragedy and speaks to the need for gun control above all. If this guy had had a 3 day waiting period maybe none of this would have happened.

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Anonymous wrote:The recent wave of crimes against Asians is the worst in the last thirty years as far as I remembered. Yet very few of these crimes are classified as hate crimes. I have yet to see an announcement from FBI that they are investing the massage shooting to find out if this is a hate crime.

Aren’t there certain markers of hate crimes that need to be in evidence to classify? Are all crimes hate crimes?

In order to control public outrage, isn’t it better to say there is no evidence of a hate crime if it’s the truth? It doesn’t mean they won’t bring evidence to light if it’s found.

You mean, it’s better for white audiences to hear that a white man doesn’t seem to have committed a racially motivated crime? Because that is not what Asian Americans and women want to hear.

Not saying that. But why do groups *want* to hear their group is a target of something if the evidence isn’t there (yet)? I can’t understand that.

Our society is totally obsessed by race. That may be natural in any society with a long history of racism, but it also means we unconsciously forcing racial narratives when the evidence doesn't warrant it. The only evidence we think we need is the race of the victims and that's that.

The killer allegedly shouted something to the effect, “I am gonna kill Asians.” This is from one of the witnesses.

That is an uncorroborate report from a Korean newspaper. Also, the narrative that this was racially motivated emerged before that Korean report. The point is that we immediately jump to race as the primary motivator before the facts come out. Most people on this are positive that this all about race. Even those who may admit misogyny are ignoring the very real connection among misogyny, sex addiction and mental health. And who here even considered the class implications of low income sex workers forced into illegal activities to pay the rent while dealing with abusive men?That's a story as old as Jack the Ripper, yet we are mostlt ignoring it.

Every story has multiple narratives. But we prefer racial narratives to dominate over others whenever possible.

Actually, Asian American advocates are clear that this is about race, gender, and class. Keep up.

People say a lot of things, but the racial is narrative is clearly dominant. I didn't say it was exclusive. Also when I said "who here?" I meant on this thread. Mostly posters are saying they were targetted for their race. Very little discussion about violence against prostitutes.

I didn't even say it's wrong to focus on race. I just think it's it important to notice when you are doing and the real reasons why. But you all seem to have a lot of resistance to doing that kind of work. Racial work is only for other people and only accepted when the "correct" conclusions are drawn.

Yes, and according to you, Hitler was just having a bad day when he was at the end of the rope. According to you, you just need to see what Hitler had to say, that abhorring to H, he felt he needed to eliminate the problem because these people were.... (you fill in the blank).

I said nothing of the kind and neither did anyone else anywhere, ever.

Seems like you are dehumanizing the victims by giving voice to the killer. That’s been done before. Read Hanna Arendt, one of the greatest 20th century Jewish political philosophers whose lover was the great Nazi philosopher Martin Heidegger. She’ll tell you the horrible Nazi officers responsible for the atrocities were actually Ordinary Joes who worked 9-5 jobs - just like me and you. They had no particular motive or animosity for their actions. Hence the banality of evil.

Again, I did nothing of the kind.

I read Hannah Arendt and lots of other people too. Where does she say that discussing a killer's motivations dehumanizes the victims? And if she does say that, who says I have to agree with it? And if I did agree that the banality of evil applied to all Nazi soldiers, where does she say that it also applies to murderers who weren't paid to kill? And what did Arendt say about the banality of Hitler himself? I don't know the answer to that myself, if I read that I forgot it. But her personal library did include Mein Kampf and biographies about Hitler, so presumably she thought it worth it to consider what he had to say.

https://hac.bard.edu/amor-mundi/hannah-arendt-collection-the-life-and-work-of-adolf-hitler-2015-04-24

I see in many of these posts Arendt’s own banality of evil analysis as applied to the killer, constantly asking for “proof” of this or that. Arendt’s analysis is not limited to Eichmann. Her analysis can be applied to anything - Holocaust, slavery, Jim Crow... According Arendt, you need not impute a particular evil motive bc in her analysis, you can always explain people’s action in practical and mundane way. Most people were simply going on about their daily lives doing their 9-5 job, pushing paper, reporting to their bosses, applying for promotion, etc. In the case of the Georgia killer, he might as well have been Camus’ stranger - someone detached, someone who just shot and killed people not knowing why, just going through his reflexive motions. And Yes, Camus’ Stranger straight up blamed the bright sunlight in the hot desert when he was asked why he killed an innocent man. In short, Camus’s Stranger was just having a bad day. There’s no reason to impute any motive beyond his reflexive motions. They just are.

Luckily for Arendt, despite her Nazi Heidegger lover, she was able to put sense in to her analysis. In the end, she was able to separate her need to analyze, constant need for facts, with Eichmann’s actions.

I'm not really sure where you are going with this. I think it started with a PP (you?) falsely attributing an absurd opinion to me. Now you are you quoting philosophers of the absurd and the evil about why you don't need facts or proof, you can just make assumptions based on whatever you see and take it from there. If that's what you think Arendt and Camus are all about, it's no wonder you think I'm absurd.

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Anonymous wrote:For those white people who insist there appears to be no racial motivation, are you so naive as to believe that racists would ever admit to killing a black man because he was black? Or that a white woman would ever admit to being racist even though she made up a story about a threatening black man and called the police?
OK, so you also take the KKK at their word when they claim that they are not "white supremacists"? Yes, continue to believe the criminal over the victims' dead bodies. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/kkk-insists-theyre-not-white-supremacists/

Surely, you've heard of Dylann Roof? He said he identifies as a white supremacist and admitted killing the black churchgoers in order to start a race war.

Btw, plenty of Asians don't see the Atlanta shooting as racially motivated. My Asian dh is one of them, and in discussing with his family, they are of the same mindset. They don't see it as the guy hunting down random Asians for their Asian-ness, but punishing the women at the spa where he was having his addiction fueled.

Do you need a list of Karens? Why are you, a white woman, so invested in believing the words of a mass murderer over the facts?

BTW, not all Asian Americans are aware of Asian American history or have studied the history of the sexualization of Asian women. Maybe if he were better educated about his own history, he would have a better sense of the context in which this incident happened.

A list of Karens? What does that even mean? A list of you and your friends? What is your racial background that makes you an authority on how a white person, or an Asian person for that matter, perceives an event?

I am an Asian American woman with a PhD in history. FYI.

DP. That still doesn't make you any kind of authority on what people you've never met perceive, or would perceive it if they studied more history.
You seem REALLY invested in making assumptions about other people and demanding that they see everything your way. Do we get to question your motives or do only PhDs in history get to do that?

Do you mistrust expertise? Do you think it's better to put facts in historical context or do you prefer to go on not having examined the complex and painful histories of the peoples around you?

An expert wouldn't talk like the PhD person. An expert wouldn't insist their opinion was fact. Might they speculate about a likelihood? Sure. But they would be honest about it being a speculation based on historical context and available facts. The only fact that ties this to race is the identify of two-thirds of the victims (including the one who survived). But because this happened in places that provide massage and sexual services, it's equally tied to that. These two things are connected because of traffickers and business owners who run many of these businesses being Asian or hiring or trafficking Asian women (I don't know the numbers but enough that it's a known thing these businesses exist). If you don't like that some of these businesses are operated and staffed by Asian people, or feel women are being exploited, you are free to work to shut them down and fight trafficking. An investigation should work to factor these variables out to determine if this was a hate crime. Thus far there hasn't been anything obvious indicating the perpetrator hates Asian people. There is some evidence he was angry about sex services. Maybe something related to race will be found still. Most of the skeptics here seem to agree that it's entirely possibly this will end up being a hate crime, but there isn't evidence so far. Others are insisting it's a hate crime no matter what. I'm not sure what the motivation is.

It's a horrific tragedy and speaks to the need for gun control above all. If this guy had had a 3 day waiting period maybe none of this would have happened.

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Anonymous wrote:For those white people who insist there appears to be no racial motivation, are you so naive as to believe that racists would ever admit to killing a black man because he was black? Or that a white woman would ever admit to being racist even though she made up a story about a threatening black man and called the police?
OK, so you also take the KKK at their word when they claim that they are not "white supremacists"? Yes, continue to believe the criminal over the victims' dead bodies. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/kkk-insists-theyre-not-white-supremacists/

Surely, you've heard of Dylann Roof? He said he identifies as a white supremacist and admitted killing the black churchgoers in order to start a race war.

Btw, plenty of Asians don't see the Atlanta shooting as racially motivated. My Asian dh is one of them, and in discussing with his family, they are of the same mindset. They don't see it as the guy hunting down random Asians for their Asian-ness, but punishing the women at the spa where he was having his addiction fueled.

Do you need a list of Karens? Why are you, a white woman, so invested in believing the words of a mass murderer over the facts?

BTW, not all Asian Americans are aware of Asian American history or have studied the history of the sexualization of Asian women. Maybe if he were better educated about his own history, he would have a better sense of the context in which this incident happened.

A list of Karens? What does that even mean? A list of you and your friends? What is your racial background that makes you an authority on how a white person, or an Asian person for that matter, perceives an event?

I am an Asian American woman with a PhD in history. FYI.

DP. That still doesn't make you any kind of authority on what people you've never met perceive, or would perceive it if they studied more history.
You seem REALLY invested in making assumptions about other people and demanding that they see everything your way. Do we get to question your motives or do only PhDs in history get to do that?

Do you mistrust expertise? Do you think it's better to put facts in historical context or do you prefer to go on not having examined the complex and painful histories of the peoples around you?

Anonymous wrote:It’s possible to be a racist and also to be mentally ill. But being mentally ill doesn’t excuse racism and it doesn’t make it okay to single out Asian women for mass murder.

Anonymous wrote:Why are you so quick to downplay racism?

It’s as if you don’t think racism is a real thing. Weirdo.