Religion makes people do bad things
It is obvious that a conversion to Judaism will be viewed with suspicion

No need to fight. You know you are a lunatic

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:After all the rationales given on this thread about how Jews have to protect their small community, is pp seriously arguing that OP’s daughter truly has free choice in the matter?

And is pp truly arguing that most people wouldn’t probably want to keep their own identities if they truly had free choice?

Do you question the sincerity and motives of everyone who converts to another religion or only those who convert to Judaism? She obviously either truly wants to convert, or wants to marry him enough to want to convert. Either way it’s her choice. Should we question what choices you’ve made regarding your beliefs?

The question is whether this is a truly free choice. You hint at it when you say that conversion is the price for marrying him. She should be able to make the choice to convert freely, without the gun-to-her-head of breaking off the marriage.

Why? Those are both perfectly valid choices. If I were dating a vegetarian who insisted on keeping a vegetarian house, I'd have to decide whether to accede to that or break it off. You seem to think he is this amazing pearl who is dangling himself as a prize in front of her and her life will be ruined if she doesn't take him, so she has no choice. That's just not the case. She is perfectly free to say no thanks, or let's just live together, or no I won't convert but we can raise the kids Jewish, etc.

As a PP said, people argue about religion all the time, particularly in the context of raising children. And people make compromises all the time in choosing a partner and in marriage. And -- gasp -- people meet other people who introduce them to things that change their world view, whether that be politics, religion, language, or what have you. You seem to think it impossible that anyone could genuinely want to convert to Judaism. I think that says more about you than about this person whose life you don't know.

You keep missing the point, so I’m starting to guess that’s deliberate. The point is all the family pressure that may or may not even be coming from the guy. Family isn’t a factor in choosing to be vegan or to speak a different language. You write above that you’d be disappointed or upset if your child chose to leave Judaism, but you do not write about what that would entail. It’s his/her ultimate choice, you say, and that’s true to the extent that, in this country, you can’t stop him/her. It seems very likely that—unlike the parents of a vegan—you’d argue for months, or cry in front of your child, or engage in long silences, or treat the spouse with disrespect. Can you try answering the question again, and this time give a complete answer?

Your continuing, and wrong, telepathic psychoanalysis of me doesn’t reflect well on you.

I would never treat the spouse with disrespect. Never. As a PP wrote, the spouse has every right to his or her own beliefs. I probably would argue and cry. I would not do the silent treatment, I don’t do that. But at the end of the day what’s most important to me is family. I would not disown a child who converted. But yes it would make me very sad. That does not mean that I’m exerting such pressure that they can’t withstand it. It means I have opinions too and I have every right to express them to my child as I would in any other circumstance, be it whether they’re moving abroad, not having kids, etc. An opinion is not a verdict.

By the way I have family members who married in without converting to Judaism but raised the kids Jewish, and cousins who have married Christians and raised the kids with no religion, and cousins who married Jews but raised the kids with so little religious background that they might as well be Christian since they only celebrate Christmas and Easter. No one is ostracized, we are all still family.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:After all the rationales given on this thread about how Jews have to protect their small community, is pp seriously arguing that OP’s daughter truly has free choice in the matter?

And is pp truly arguing that most people wouldn’t probably want to keep their own identities if they truly had free choice?

Do you question the sincerity and motives of everyone who converts to another religion or only those who convert to Judaism? She obviously either truly wants to convert, or wants to marry him enough to want to convert. Either way it’s her choice. Should we question what choices you’ve made regarding your beliefs?

The question is whether this is a truly free choice. You hint at it when you say that conversion is the price for marrying him. She should be able to make the choice to convert freely, without the gun-to-her-head of breaking off the marriage.

Why? Those are both perfectly valid choices. If I were dating a vegetarian who insisted on keeping a vegetarian house, I'd have to decide whether to accede to that or break it off. You seem to think he is this amazing pearl who is dangling himself as a prize in front of her and her life will be ruined if she doesn't take him, so she has no choice. That's just not the case. She is perfectly free to say no thanks, or let's just live together, or no I won't convert but we can raise the kids Jewish, etc.

As a PP said, people argue about religion all the time, particularly in the context of raising children. And people make compromises all the time in choosing a partner and in marriage. And -- gasp -- people meet other people who introduce them to things that change their world view, whether that be politics, religion, language, or what have you. You seem to think it impossible that anyone could genuinely want to convert to Judaism. I think that says more about you than about this person whose life you don't know.

You keep missing the point, so I’m starting to guess that’s deliberate. The point is all the family pressure that may or may not even be coming from the guy. Family isn’t a factor in choosing to be vegan or to speak a different language. You write above that you’d be disappointed or upset if your child chose to leave Judaism, but you do not write about what that would entail. It’s his/her ultimate choice, you say, and that’s true to the extent that, in this country, you can’t stop him/her. It seems very likely that—unlike the parents of a vegan—you’d argue for months, or cry in front of your child, or engage in long silences, or treat the spouse with disrespect. Can you try answering the question again, and this time give a complete answer?

Your continuing, and wrong, telepathic psychoanalysis of me doesn’t reflect well on you.

PP wrote above that he “would have a problem with her” if his child left Judiaism. That sounds a lot more intense than vegan parents with a child who goes paleo.

You haven’t met my sister’s vegan in laws (who do indeed go nuts over my brother in law’s paleo leanings). Even their dog is vegan.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:After all the rationales given on this thread about how Jews have to protect their small community, is pp seriously arguing that OP’s daughter truly has free choice in the matter?

And is pp truly arguing that most people wouldn’t probably want to keep their own identities if they truly had free choice?

Do you question the sincerity and motives of everyone who converts to another religion or only those who convert to Judaism? She obviously either truly wants to convert, or wants to marry him enough to want to convert. Either way it’s her choice. Should we question what choices you’ve made regarding your beliefs?

The question is whether this is a truly free choice. You hint at it when you say that conversion is the price for marrying him. She should be able to make the choice to convert freely, without the gun-to-her-head of breaking off the marriage.

Why? Those are both perfectly valid choices. If I were dating a vegetarian who insisted on keeping a vegetarian house, I'd have to decide whether to accede to that or break it off. You seem to think he is this amazing pearl who is dangling himself as a prize in front of her and her life will be ruined if she doesn't take him, so she has no choice. That's just not the case. She is perfectly free to say no thanks, or let's just live together, or no I won't convert but we can raise the kids Jewish, etc.

As a PP said, people argue about religion all the time, particularly in the context of raising children. And people make compromises all the time in choosing a partner and in marriage. And -- gasp -- people meet other people who introduce them to things that change their world view, whether that be politics, religion, language, or what have you. You seem to think it impossible that anyone could genuinely want to convert to Judaism. I think that says more about you than about this person whose life you don't know.

You keep missing the point, so I’m starting to guess that’s deliberate. The point is all the family pressure that may or may not even be coming from the guy. Family isn’t a factor in choosing to be vegan or to speak a different language. You write above that you’d be disappointed or upset if your child chose to leave Judaism, but you do not write about what that would entail. It’s his/her ultimate choice, you say, and that’s true to the extent that, in this country, you can’t stop him/her. It seems very likely that—unlike the parents of a vegan—you’d argue for months, or cry in front of your child, or engage in long silences, or treat the spouse with disrespect. Can you try answering the question again, and this time give a complete answer?

Your continuing, and wrong, telepathic psychoanalysis of me doesn’t reflect well on you.

PP wrote above that he “would have a problem with her” if his child left Judiaism. That sounds a lot more intense than vegan parents with a child who goes paleo.

Anonymous wrote:For I have come to turn 'A man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.

Matthew 10:35

The Midrash (Yalkut Shim’oni to Proverbs 23:22) simply states that a child should do all a parent asks. When the act is purposeful and to the benefit of the parent, most later authorities agree that a child should do it, even though it is not part of the specific required acts mentioned in the talmudic passage cited earlier. However, when the act is foolish, there is great disagreement as to whether the request need be followed.

Oh yay. The rabbi who took a semester on Christianity while studying in New York, and thinks he knows more about it than anybody else.

This passage is not about marriage. The description of the Midrash as “simply” requiring the child to do everything the parent asks seems a little disengenuous. That seems pretty key to OP’s situation.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:After all the rationales given on this thread about how Jews have to protect their small community, is pp seriously arguing that OP’s daughter truly has free choice in the matter?

And is pp truly arguing that most people wouldn’t probably want to keep their own identities if they truly had free choice?

Do you question the sincerity and motives of everyone who converts to another religion or only those who convert to Judaism? She obviously either truly wants to convert, or wants to marry him enough to want to convert. Either way it’s her choice. Should we question what choices you’ve made regarding your beliefs?

The question is whether this is a truly free choice. You hint at it when you say that conversion is the price for marrying him. She should be able to make the choice to convert freely, without the gun-to-her-head of breaking off the marriage.

Why? Those are both perfectly valid choices. If I were dating a vegetarian who insisted on keeping a vegetarian house, I'd have to decide whether to accede to that or break it off. You seem to think he is this amazing pearl who is dangling himself as a prize in front of her and her life will be ruined if she doesn't take him, so she has no choice. That's just not the case. She is perfectly free to say no thanks, or let's just live together, or no I won't convert but we can raise the kids Jewish, etc.

As a PP said, people argue about religion all the time, particularly in the context of raising children. And people make compromises all the time in choosing a partner and in marriage. And -- gasp -- people meet other people who introduce them to things that change their world view, whether that be politics, religion, language, or what have you. You seem to think it impossible that anyone could genuinely want to convert to Judaism. I think that says more about you than about this person whose life you don't know.

You keep missing the point, so I’m starting to guess that’s deliberate. The point is all the family pressure that may or may not even be coming from the guy. Family isn’t a factor in choosing to be vegan or to speak a different language. You write above that you’d be disappointed or upset if your child chose to leave Judaism, but you do not write about what that would entail. It’s his/her ultimate choice, you say, and that’s true to the extent that, in this country, you can’t stop him/her. It seems very likely that—unlike the parents of a vegan—you’d argue for months, or cry in front of your child, or engage in long silences, or treat the spouse with disrespect. Can you try answering the question again, and this time give a complete answer?

Your continuing, and wrong, telepathic psychoanalysis of me doesn’t reflect well on you.

Should be “you’re whining” before anyone gets worked up.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And to the PP who is the daughter in law of Holocaust survivors, are they alive and able to speak to you about this? Their perspective would be interesting.

I am Jewish so I do not have the experience of being ostracized by my religion. But, if it were me, and it was important to me, I would push and shove my way on to every synagogue committee and light Shabbat candles every evening and show my family and community my full commitment to Judaism. How can you blame us for being wary? If you know our history you should understand this.

push and shove where I am not wanted? no thank you. if you want my son, you'll have to reach out.

Dude. Get thee to a reform temple already if you are so obsessed with your son being recognized as Jewish because his father is Jewish. If you won’t, then it’s your choice so give it up already and stop acting like Jews formed a special group to persecute kids born to a non Jewish parent. No one is reaching out because you are bitter and insist that Jews sacrifice longstanding tenets of the faith to accommodate your disagreement with these traditions. Quite frankly you have no right to tell people what to believe. You can join or not, it’s up to you. There’s not some big cabal sorrowing at letting a kid slip through their misogynistic, convert-hating fingers.

Fair enough. It's extremely frustrating and alienating to be told (in person and on here) that my kid isn't Jewish, so what's the point ... and I have had less-than-welcoming experiences in Reform settings as well. Add that to being the party in the marriage responsible for religious education, and it's seeming basically impossible, no matter how much I try to explain to DH that his kid will not have any Jewish identity if we don't make an effort. I feel a responsibility to educate him in his Jewish tradition but there's only so much I feel I can do.

It’s interesting bc this poster’s experience (and resentment) ties to the OP’s predicament about her daughter. OP- if your daughter didn’t convert, her future could look a lot like this though the spouses are quite different in their observance obviously. By choosing to convert, she avoids all of this and gains the beauty of Judaism in return.

PP- have you ever seen the episode of Sex and the City where Charlotte wants to convert and the rabbi slams the door in her face 3x before welcoming her with open arms? The door has been slammed in your face and instead of picking yourself up again, your whining and making excuses. Your husband doesn’t care. You’re doing it for some reason (to honor your in-laws perhaps?) which is noble. Again, we are a small group, persecuted thru the centuries. We do not proselytize non Jews. If you want to raise a Jewish child, if it really matters to you, you’re going to have to remove the chip on your shoulder and lean in.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And to the PP who is the daughter in law of Holocaust survivors, are they alive and able to speak to you about this? Their perspective would be interesting.

I am Jewish so I do not have the experience of being ostracized by my religion. But, if it were me, and it was important to me, I would push and shove my way on to every synagogue committee and light Shabbat candles every evening and show my family and community my full commitment to Judaism. How can you blame us for being wary? If you know our history you should understand this.

push and shove where I am not wanted? no thank you. if you want my son, you'll have to reach out.

Dude. Get thee to a reform temple already if you are so obsessed with your son being recognized as Jewish because his father is Jewish. If you won’t, then it’s your choice so give it up already and stop acting like Jews formed a special group to persecute kids born to a non Jewish parent. No one is reaching out because you are bitter and insist that Jews sacrifice longstanding tenets of the faith to accommodate your disagreement with these traditions. Quite frankly you have no right to tell people what to believe. You can join or not, it’s up to you. There’s not some big cabal sorrowing at letting a kid slip through their misogynistic, convert-hating fingers.

Fair enough. It's extremely frustrating and alienating to be told (in person and on here) that my kid isn't Jewish, so what's the point ... and I have had less-than-welcoming experiences in Reform settings as well. Add that to being the party in the marriage responsible for religious education, and it's seeming basically impossible, no matter how much I try to explain to DH that his kid will not have any Jewish identity if we don't make an effort. I feel a responsibility to educate him in his Jewish tradition but there's only so much I feel I can do.

It sounds hard. I have to say though that if his own father who is Jewish doesn't care, then he's going to grow up knowing that and knowing that Judaism isn't important to his father. I don't know how old he is but you could send him to Hebrew (religious) school when he is 5 or 6 or older. That would give him a grounding at least. But if his dad really doesn't care, doesn't practice, and doesn't model it, I do agree that your son probably won't develop much of a Jewish identity because so much is modeled in the home. So much is transmitted in values and in talking about what it means to be Jewish and why our traditions are the way they are. That is more important than how often one attends synagogue. But Hebrew school would give him a chance, if it's important to you, and a Reform shul should be welcoming to him. Not every shul is the same -- if the ones you've been to seem exclusionary, post separately on this forum so people can suggest others.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And to the PP who is the daughter in law of Holocaust survivors, are they alive and able to speak to you about this? Their perspective would be interesting.

I am Jewish so I do not have the experience of being ostracized by my religion. But, if it were me, and it was important to me, I would push and shove my way on to every synagogue committee and light Shabbat candles every evening and show my family and community my full commitment to Judaism. How can you blame us for being wary? If you know our history you should understand this.

push and shove where I am not wanted? no thank you. if you want my son, you'll have to reach out.

Dude. Get thee to a reform temple already if you are so obsessed with your son being recognized as Jewish because his father is Jewish. If you won’t, then it’s your choice so give it up already and stop acting like Jews formed a special group to persecute kids born to a non Jewish parent. No one is reaching out because you are bitter and insist that Jews sacrifice longstanding tenets of the faith to accommodate your disagreement with these traditions. Quite frankly you have no right to tell people what to believe. You can join or not, it’s up to you. There’s not some big cabal sorrowing at letting a kid slip through their misogynistic, convert-hating fingers.

Fair enough. It's extremely frustrating and alienating to be told (in person and on here) that my kid isn't Jewish, so what's the point ... and I have had less-than-welcoming experiences in Reform settings as well. Add that to being the party in the marriage responsible for religious education, and it's seeming basically impossible, no matter how much I try to explain to DH that his kid will not have any Jewish identity if we don't make an effort. I feel a responsibility to educate him in his Jewish tradition but there's only so much I feel I can do.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:After all the rationales given on this thread about how Jews have to protect their small community, is pp seriously arguing that OP’s daughter truly has free choice in the matter?

And is pp truly arguing that most people wouldn’t probably want to keep their own identities if they truly had free choice?

Do you question the sincerity and motives of everyone who converts to another religion or only those who convert to Judaism? She obviously either truly wants to convert, or wants to marry him enough to want to convert. Either way it’s her choice. Should we question what choices you’ve made regarding your beliefs?

The question is whether this is a truly free choice. You hint at it when you say that conversion is the price for marrying him. She should be able to make the choice to convert freely, without the gun-to-her-head of breaking off the marriage.

Why? Those are both perfectly valid choices. If I were dating a vegetarian who insisted on keeping a vegetarian house, I'd have to decide whether to accede to that or break it off. You seem to think he is this amazing pearl who is dangling himself as a prize in front of her and her life will be ruined if she doesn't take him, so she has no choice. That's just not the case. She is perfectly free to say no thanks, or let's just live together, or no I won't convert but we can raise the kids Jewish, etc.

As a PP said, people argue about religion all the time, particularly in the context of raising children. And people make compromises all the time in choosing a partner and in marriage. And -- gasp -- people meet other people who introduce them to things that change their world view, whether that be politics, religion, language, or what have you. You seem to think it impossible that anyone could genuinely want to convert to Judaism. I think that says more about you than about this person whose life you don't know.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:After all the rationales given on this thread about how Jews have to protect their small community, is pp seriously arguing that OP’s daughter truly has free choice in the matter?

And is pp truly arguing that most people wouldn’t probably want to keep their own identities if they truly had free choice?

Do you question the sincerity and motives of everyone who converts to another religion or only those who convert to Judaism? She obviously either truly wants to convert, or wants to marry him enough to want to convert. Either way it’s her choice. Should we question what choices you’ve made regarding your beliefs?

The question is whether this is a truly free choice. You hint at it when you say that conversion is the price for marrying him. She should be able to make the choice to convert freely, without the gun-to-her-head of breaking off the marriage.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And to the PP who is the daughter in law of Holocaust survivors, are they alive and able to speak to you about this? Their perspective would be interesting.

I am Jewish so I do not have the experience of being ostracized by my religion. But, if it were me, and it was important to me, I would push and shove my way on to every synagogue committee and light Shabbat candles every evening and show my family and community my full commitment to Judaism. How can you blame us for being wary? If you know our history you should understand this.

push and shove where I am not wanted? no thank you. if you want my son, you'll have to reach out.

Dude. Get thee to a reform temple already if you are so obsessed with your son being recognized as Jewish because his father is Jewish. If you won’t, then it’s your choice so give it up already and stop acting like Jews formed a special group to persecute kids born to a non Jewish parent. No one is reaching out because you are bitter and insist that Jews sacrifice longstanding tenets of the faith to accommodate your disagreement with these traditions. Quite frankly you have no right to tell people what to believe. You can join or not, it’s up to you. There’s not some big cabal sorrowing at letting a kid slip through their misogynistic, convert-hating fingers.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am sorry that your life has been so unkind to you that you have to attack a small faith, its precepts, and apparently your own children who rejected the religious education you gave or didn't give to them such that they as adults or choosing a different path. I am sure that this is painful and explains your behavior on this forum. Rejection, shame, etc. are powerful feelings. Not every one is kind in this world. I am sorry for whatever trauma you have experienced. Or if your children have chosen to be a different faith than you and you are unhappy. Part of parenting is learning to put your ego aside and allow your children to make different choices as adults. Good luck on your struggle with this.

Omg. Are you for real with this immature bs? And fwiw, my kids have kept my faith, although it’s totally irrelevant to this thread.

We’re all very curious to know, however, what you’d do if your kids rejected Judaism. Can you tell us whether you’d give them free choice?

DP. I’d be upset, just as I’d be upset if they married an alcoholic or drug abuser or convicted criminal. But unless there’s literally a gun to their head or monetary extortion, it’s their choice. Their life, their beliefs, their choice. I don’t have to be happy about it but I would respect it.

Anonymous wrote:After all the rationales given on this thread about how Jews have to protect their small community, is pp seriously arguing that OP’s daughter truly has free choice in the matter?

And is pp truly arguing that most people wouldn’t probably want to keep their own identities if they truly had free choice?

Do you question the sincerity and motives of everyone who converts to another religion or only those who convert to Judaism? She obviously either truly wants to convert, or wants to marry him enough to want to convert. Either way it’s her choice. Should we question what choices you’ve made regarding your beliefs?