^ I work in a STEM field/biotech where 95% of colleagues have PhDs. Nobody is referred to as “Dr”.

I find the pretension is lower outside of academia/university though.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Small kitchen, lots of guest rooms, old American cars with some dirt on them. Persian rugs obtained by an older relative whist traveling in Iraq or Yemen in the early 1900s. Vacations include things like helicopter trips to hunt moose or elk, or expeditions on camel with Bedouins. Art includes antiquities, framed handwritten poems signed by Maya Angelou, and mounted heads of animals killed while hunting.

You mean, Doctor Maya Angelou?

-Opfra

The pp provides a subtle class signal. The rich, and even the UMC, are not impressed that she's a doctor. They are impressed that she's Maya Angelou.

It's less about being impressed and more about showing respect. I read it more as a subtle race signal. I grew up around white people who would refer to Martin Luther King Jr., Maya Angelou, etc. Now I work among black people who always refer to Dr. King, Dr. Maya Angelou, etc. You can bet I use the titles people have earned now.

Where I work, a little under half of my colleagues have doctorates. No one refers to anyone as doctor unless they are being introduced as a panelist at a conference or something similar. We had one guy that referred to himself as doctor. His doctorate was from the least prestigious school compared to everyone else, and the fact that he insisted on being called doctor marked him as being "less than" class-wise. So, pp, it's your view fhat calling people doctor is a respect issue, and you make the somewhat absurd claim that not doing so is also racist, but I would argue that no one calls Albert Einstein "Dr Albert Einstein" nor do we refer to Henry Kissinger as "Dr Henry Kissinger". Like them, both MLK and Angelou need no honorific introduction to command respect.

+1
this is well known and there was even research on this (authors that put PhD have fewer and lower quality publications). only the lamest lame phds who barely finished at the worst schools prefer to be called doctors.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Small kitchen, lots of guest rooms, old American cars with some dirt on them. Persian rugs obtained by an older relative whist traveling in Iraq or Yemen in the early 1900s. Vacations include things like helicopter trips to hunt moose or elk, or expeditions on camel with Bedouins. Art includes antiquities, framed handwritten poems signed by Maya Angelou, and mounted heads of animals killed while hunting.

You mean, Doctor Maya Angelou?

-Opfra

The pp provides a subtle class signal. The rich, and even the UMC, are not impressed that she's a doctor. They are impressed that she's Maya Angelou.

It's less about being impressed and more about showing respect. I read it more as a subtle race signal. I grew up around white people who would refer to Martin Luther King Jr., Maya Angelou, etc. Now I work among black people who always refer to Dr. King, Dr. Maya Angelou, etc. You can bet I use the titles people have earned now.

Where I work, a little under half of my colleagues have doctorates. No one refers to anyone as doctor unless they are being introduced as a panelist at a conference or something similar. We had one guy that referred to himself as doctor. His doctorate was from the least prestigious school compared to everyone else, and the fact that he insisted on being called doctor marked him as being "less than" class-wise. So, pp, it's your view fhat calling people doctor is a respect issue, and you make the somewhat absurd claim that not doing so is also racist, but I would argue that no one calls Albert Einstein "Dr Albert Einstein" nor do we refer to Henry Kissinger as "Dr Henry Kissinger". Like them, both MLK and Angelou need no honorific introduction to command respect.

I also have a PhD, which I never use to introduce myself, and work with a lot of people with doctorates too. I'm talking about how we refer to others with respect, not anybody referring to themselves or insisting. There's also a little distance, I wouldn't call a daily coworker by anything but first name but i would call someone from a university or agency whom i only see in meetings Dr. There is a huge difference between referring to Albert Einstein and referring to a black woman who just finished a PhD in front of others - for the same reason male professors tend to be more comfortable going by first name with students because they already HAVE authority granted automatically. if you don't see that, and think trying to be respectful is a low class thing, I dont really know what to tell you.

Also PP, i don't think i said not calling people Dr is racist and it is concerning that you read it that way. I said it was not common in the predominantly white environment I grew up in, and now that I work in a much more diverse environment I can clearly tell it matters to my black colleagues in particular. I think perhaps it matters in part because they have faced racism, but i don't think being familiar with a different custom is itself racist, so rest easy, you can read my posts without feeling personally accused.

I see now that you are calling this a tell about race rather than it being racist. We have black people with doctorates, and they don't insist on being called doctor. Rather than two white people arguing about what black people prefer to be called, let's just leave this as: you perceive that black people prefer to be called honorific titles to a greater extent than white people. Which isn't terribly germane to the topic, so let's not derail this further.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Small kitchen, lots of guest rooms, old American cars with some dirt on them. Persian rugs obtained by an older relative whist traveling in Iraq or Yemen in the early 1900s. Vacations include things like helicopter trips to hunt moose or elk, or expeditions on camel with Bedouins. Art includes antiquities, framed handwritten poems signed by Maya Angelou, and mounted heads of animals killed while hunting.

You mean, Doctor Maya Angelou?

-Opfra

The pp provides a subtle class signal. The rich, and even the UMC, are not impressed that she's a doctor. They are impressed that she's Maya Angelou.

It's less about being impressed and more about showing respect. I read it more as a subtle race signal. I grew up around white people who would refer to Martin Luther King Jr., Maya Angelou, etc. Now I work among black people who always refer to Dr. King, Dr. Maya Angelou, etc. You can bet I use the titles people have earned now.

Where I work, a little under half of my colleagues have doctorates. No one refers to anyone as doctor unless they are being introduced as a panelist at a conference or something similar. We had one guy that referred to himself as doctor. His doctorate was from the least prestigious school compared to everyone else, and the fact that he insisted on being called doctor marked him as being "less than" class-wise. So, pp, it's your view fhat calling people doctor is a respect issue, and you make the somewhat absurd claim that not doing so is also racist, but I would argue that no one calls Albert Einstein "Dr Albert Einstein" nor do we refer to Henry Kissinger as "Dr Henry Kissinger". Like them, both MLK and Angelou need no honorific introduction to command respect.

I also have a PhD, which I never use to introduce myself, and work with a lot of people with doctorates too. I'm talking about how we refer to others with respect, not anybody referring to themselves or insisting. There's also a little distance, I wouldn't call a daily coworker by anything but first name but i would call someone from a university or agency whom i only see in meetings Dr. There is a huge difference between referring to Albert Einstein and referring to a black woman who just finished a PhD in front of others - for the same reason male professors tend to be more comfortable going by first name with students because they already HAVE authority granted automatically. if you don't see that, and think trying to be respectful is a low class thing, I dont really know what to tell you.

Also PP, i don't think i said not calling people Dr is racist and it is concerning that you read it that way. I said it was not common in the predominantly white environment I grew up in, and now that I work in a much more diverse environment I can clearly tell it matters to my black colleagues in particular. I think perhaps it matters in part because they have faced racism, but i don't think being familiar with a different custom is itself racist, so rest easy, you can read my posts without feeling personally accused.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Small kitchen, lots of guest rooms, old American cars with some dirt on them. Persian rugs obtained by an older relative whist traveling in Iraq or Yemen in the early 1900s. Vacations include things like helicopter trips to hunt moose or elk, or expeditions on camel with Bedouins. Art includes antiquities, framed handwritten poems signed by Maya Angelou, and mounted heads of animals killed while hunting.

You mean, Doctor Maya Angelou?

-Opfra

The pp provides a subtle class signal. The rich, and even the UMC, are not impressed that she's a doctor. They are impressed that she's Maya Angelou.

It's less about being impressed and more about showing respect. I read it more as a subtle race signal. I grew up around white people who would refer to Martin Luther King Jr., Maya Angelou, etc. Now I work among black people who always refer to Dr. King, Dr. Maya Angelou, etc. You can bet I use the titles people have earned now.

Where I work, a little under half of my colleagues have doctorates. No one refers to anyone as doctor unless they are being introduced as a panelist at a conference or something similar. We had one guy that referred to himself as doctor. His doctorate was from the least prestigious school compared to everyone else, and the fact that he insisted on being called doctor marked him as being "less than" class-wise. So, pp, it's your view fhat calling people doctor is a respect issue, and you make the somewhat absurd claim that not doing so is also racist, but I would argue that no one calls Albert Einstein "Dr Albert Einstein" nor do we refer to Henry Kissinger as "Dr Henry Kissinger". Like them, both MLK and Angelou need no honorific introduction to command respect.

I also have a PhD, which I never use to introduce myself, and work with a lot of people with doctorates too. I'm talking about how we refer to others with respect, not anybody referring to themselves or insisting. There's also a little distance, I wouldn't call a daily coworker by anything but first name but i would call someone from a university or agency whom i only see in meetings Dr. There is a huge difference between referring to Albert Einstein and referring to a black woman who just finished a PhD in front of others - for the same reason male professors tend to be more comfortable going by first name with students because they already HAVE authority granted automatically. if you don't see that, and think trying to be respectful is a low class thing, I dont really know what to tell you.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Small kitchen, lots of guest rooms, old American cars with some dirt on them. Persian rugs obtained by an older relative whist traveling in Iraq or Yemen in the early 1900s. Vacations include things like helicopter trips to hunt moose or elk, or expeditions on camel with Bedouins. Art includes antiquities, framed handwritten poems signed by Maya Angelou, and mounted heads of animals killed while hunting.

You mean, Doctor Maya Angelou?

-Opfra

The pp provides a subtle class signal. The rich, and even the UMC, are not impressed that she's a doctor. They are impressed that she's Maya Angelou.

It's less about being impressed and more about showing respect. I read it more as a subtle race signal. I grew up around white people who would refer to Martin Luther King Jr., Maya Angelou, etc. Now I work among black people who always refer to Dr. King, Dr. Maya Angelou, etc. You can bet I use the titles people have earned now.

Where I work, a little under half of my colleagues have doctorates. No one refers to anyone as doctor unless they are being introduced as a panelist at a conference or something similar. We had one guy that referred to himself as doctor. His doctorate was from the least prestigious school compared to everyone else, and the fact that he insisted on being called doctor marked him as being "less than" class-wise. So, pp, it's your view fhat calling people doctor is a respect issue, and you make the somewhat absurd claim that not doing so is also racist, but I would argue that no one calls Albert Einstein "Dr Albert Einstein" nor do we refer to Henry Kissinger as "Dr Henry Kissinger". Like them, both MLK and Angelou need no honorific introduction to command respect.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They don’t talk about money.

Kids have surnames for names.

They never seem ruffled. Any problem is solvable and they have a family safety net.

Not overly concerned with organic food, toys, clothes, etc.

Will offer you an alcoholic beverage any time of day you pop by.

This is pretty much the only accurate description in this entire thread. The surnames can be middle names.

My child has multiple English surnames for middle names (they're all family names).

Congratulations!

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Anonymous wrote:Generally, yes. Books are a definite sign of class as is a tasteful home. Clean and calm and smells fresh (like outside fresh not plug-ins stink).

Rows of mass market paperbacks by Stephen King, Dean Koontz, et al are not signs of class. If anything they signal a limited sphere of knowledge.

Stephen King is actually one of the best writers of his generation. Snobs don’t recognize his skill.

It's not Stephen King per se. I agree he's a good writer. It's the lack variation of books. People like this proudly display their rows of best sellers and you know inside they're thinking that they are "well read." I suppose it's better than not reading at all.

It's ok if it's Terry Pratchett.

Can we add Neil Gaiman in too?

So now rich people don't have Kindles? The rich people I know have donated all their books and are exclusively using devices. Y'all are confused.

For the 100th time, money and class are two very different things.

Anonymous wrote:Subtle signs of upper class living would be household staff - you realize later they have a nanny, housekeeper, night nannies, and personal chef. Those 3 alone would cost at least $150k if more or less full time. Being discreet about going on holidays, about kids having horses and riding lessons, summer house somewhere fancy, the musical instrument parents bought a 12 year old that is a professional level $15,000 flute because why not, inherited jewelry and watches that are timeless because $$$, because none of it is a big deal to them - but they’ve been taught to be discreet about things.

I’m pp and yes! Discreet. This is my family but you would never know it.

OP never came to clarify, but I’ll add to what I think OP meant.

Subtle signs:

1. Being discreet (not flashy, not gossipy to strangers, can gossip to family though). discreet can be about travel or money also
2. High quality but not necessarily the most money
3. The Doctor reference someone made above was a good one. I’ll argue throwing your degree in someone’s face is not classy. If you are interviewing them or officially presenting yes, otherwise no.
4. Knowing etiquette. When to use proper addresses in invites,
5. how to write and speak well.
6. Understanding that hard works open doors in any situation.
7. Social but not in a trashy or opportunistic way-which is so hard to pull off like.
8. Knowing how to blend in other countries while keeping your own style.

I also do think the tattoo thing plays a role. Foreign international dignitaries never have and If they do it’s not flashed. Basically everything American TV is not.

Know what’s classy? Resisting posting personal pictures of Notre Dame on social media.

Subtle signs of class:

- Carries a sturdy water bottle that doesn’t leak; never has a disposable water bottle like Aquafina. Bottle of Evion in a pinch.
- great teeth that aren’t too perfectly white.
- Good haircut and healthy looking color.
- Spunky children that are smart but not precocious.
- Advanced skiers.

DH grew up rich. Rich rich. Generational European rich. We’re now LMC (fingers crossed for inheritance )

He automatically knows how to dress/decorate/entertain in a way I find fascinating. We shop at thrift stores. He still always dresses in a way that looks wealthy. We live in a small not very nice apartment. It’s drcorated beautifully with original art and Persian rugs from his family and his youth.

My point is he has something. A certain confidence that belies his upbringing

Anonymous wrote:Kids who know how to sit still.

+ 100

Subtle signs of upper class living would be household staff - you realize later they have a nanny, housekeeper, night nannies, and personal chef. Those 3 alone would cost at least $150k if more or less full time. Being discreet about going on holidays, about kids having horses and riding lessons, summer house somewhere fancy, the musical instrument parents bought a 12 year old that is a professional level $15,000 flute because why not, inherited jewelry and watches that are timeless because $$$, because none of it is a big deal to them - but they’ve been taught to be discreet about things.