Anonymous wrote:I'm a member of Ohev Sholom (Orthodox) in DC. On the second night (after the first day), the Rabbi's daughter got up during dinner. With dozens and dozens of pairs of eyes on her...

She said that the portion for the second day (when Abraham takes his son Isaac to sacrifice him for Gd) made her very angry, upset, confused, and sad. Why would Gd do such a thing?

Those present responded that Abraham trusted Gd that he was going to change his mind, or that he never was going to go through with it. But, that didn't satisfy her.

She thinks Gd was testing Abraham -- but not testing his faithfulness or loyalty to Gd. He was testing his ability to follow his moral compass -- to do the right thing -- to stand up for what he believed. If she is right (and as the Rabbi's daughter, she definitely isn't wrong), that means that Abraham didn't pass the test; he failed it. That could explain why Gd never speaks to Abraham again directly and only through his angels after that test -- Gd was disappointed.

How does that apply to this question? For many Jews today, our moral compass tells us that the bris is not an innocent rite of passage, but the male equivalent of female circumcision -- in other words, immoral & unethical infant genital mutilation. The Jewish Gd never asked for unwavering obedience. The Jewish Gd is asking us to find our moral compass, present it to Him and stand up -- not just to society, not just to our parent, not to just to tradition -- those would be easy in comparison. No, Gd is asking us to stand up to the Ultimate Parent, the Ultimate Judge, the Ultimate Everything, and say, "No, that is not okay, and I will not do it." Abraham failed Him, but let us not all fail Him.

I consider myself a very observant Jew. I am open orthodox. I follow, believe in, and admire Rabbi Herzfeld and everything he is doing for Judaism today (although I am obviously more open than him, and don't pretend to be speaking for him). The National Shul is more progressive than Kemp Mill "progressive" Jews and even more progressive than Modern Orthodox. But, nonetheless, I do belong to an orthodox shul. I do not believe that the bris milah applies to our culture anymore -- period. I will not fail the test that Abraham failed. Gd does not want me to hurt my child. He wants me to protect my child. He wants me to stand up to Him. I will not fail Gd. I will not fail my child. I will not fail my moral compass. That decision does not make me less of a Jew. I would argue that makes me more of one.

Anonymous wrote:OP again. Just looked up this about the brit shalom... really fascinating. She makes the same point about the difficulty of surviving the practice in the past:

http://www.beyondthebris.com/2012/04/choosing-brit-shalom-over-brit-milah.html?m=1

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Thanks to the last three posters for those comments, I appreciate it. 11:55, I will definitely look into the book. I love the idea of a peaceful covenant -- I knew there were debates within Judaism about this, but not an alternate ritual.

Thinking about this more, I wonder about why the covenant was based on this specific act. Is it because one naturally protects one's genitals (and the survival of one's bloodline through reproduction) from injury and thus suffering an injury there represents turning one's survival over to God? I think in the time this practice began there were surely a lot more risks from circumcising than not, all kinds of infections and amputations...and the covenant has so much to do with God's protection of the Jews, their survival. I just wonder why it was not some other body part like an earlobe, something men and women could do. Seems like there must be a meaning behind it.

Ultimately it doesn't accord with my spiritual beliefs to think that God's protection will only be promised if my son undergoes circumcision. I thought at first of looking into medical benefits, but when I think historically about the risks of a medically unnecessary procedure it seems that the practice must have arisen and been maintained solely according to some other mode of thinking. I feel more and more that this would not be the right thing for us to do. DH and I have had some pretty interesting conversations about this, and we will check out the book and other viewpoints.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know this is going to be a controversial post, but I'm going to ask anyway to try and sort out what I think about this. We are about to have a boy. My husband is Jewish, and I am not. I come from a culture where it's quite common not to circumcise. I never planned to, and as recent research seems to show it doesn't have medical advantages in developed nations as long as good hygiene is practiced and can interfere with sensitivity, etc., I assumed I would not. Now my husband is not pushing it and says he wants to look at the research and decide. But I know part of him feels it would be a rite of passage associated with his Jewish identity.

Here's the thing -- I've tried very hard to be open to Judaism, celebrating holidays and participating in the Jewish community, but there are some things that really bother me. My children are not considered half-Jewish because I'm not Jewish. There's this whole thing about the chosen people and outsiders/insiders. I hear it in all the liturgy. I just don't feel I can connect with it, and I also don't want to give my children the burden of thinking they are Jewish when many Jews won't consider them so. My husband is from Israel and we would not have been allowed to get married there because I am not Jewish, unless I underwent a full orthodox conversion. I was at one point willing to convert but my husband is not religious and he told me he preferred I would not. Regardless, it strikes me as a discriminatory practice that I don't feel comfortable with (on the part of the state), and it really underscored to me that I would not be considered a member of the community in many ways as we got married.

I don't really want my "issues" with this religious crap to confound the decision about circumcision. I want to keep an open mind. I know it is very important to Jewish identity and so on, and I also know there are several countries where it's becoming a human rights/consent issue. It's just getting to the point that I don't even know what I am thinking about and need something concrete to ground me. If you've read this far, and you have any similar experiences in coming to a decision, would appreciate hearing them. Thanks.

I recommend this book: https://www.amazon.com/Questioning-Circumcision-Perspective-Ronald-Goldman/dp/0964489562

We are very observant Jews and active members at an orthodox shul. We are shomer shabbat, kosher, and for the most part, very traditional. Our son had a bris on his 8th day, but we did not circumcise him. Some people call it a "Bris Shalom" (peaceful covenant as opposed to a bris milah) and choose to cut a string as a symbolic "cut". We both work to advance human rights in our day jobs and found it hypocritical to fight against infant genital mutilation and then mutilate our infant. Our Orthodox Rabbi knows that we did not circumcise and even the Chabad rebbetzin attended our son's bris shalom. Our son is accepted by the Jewish community, including the most religious members. While I do not know other members of our shul who choose not to circumcise, I do know many other orthodox Jews who choose not to circumcise and there is halakah to support this decision. Many members who found out (we don't advertise it but obviously we didn't have a mohel, so when people ask us about our mohel, it comes up), have told me that they wish they had known of this option. Pregnant women have come up to me and said they are hoping for a girl because of this issue. When they have a boy, they telll me that they wish they could be as strong as me and not circumcise but they are scared to follow the path they know is right. There was an outspoken rabbi on this issue who was a part of the Humanistic shul in DC (machar) who is against circumcision. I'd expect most of the Jews who belong to a Humanistic shul are unlikely to circumcise. I know that your children will be welcome there and all Reform shuls where Judaism passes from either the mother or the father (also halaka to support this).

Can yo say more about the halakeh support or provide a reference? Thanks.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know this is going to be a controversial post, but I'm going to ask anyway to try and sort out what I think about this. We are about to have a boy. My husband is Jewish, and I am not. I come from a culture where it's quite common not to circumcise. I never planned to, and as recent research seems to show it doesn't have medical advantages in developed nations as long as good hygiene is practiced and can interfere with sensitivity, etc., I assumed I would not. Now my husband is not pushing it and says he wants to look at the research and decide. But I know part of him feels it would be a rite of passage associated with his Jewish identity.

Here's the thing -- I've tried very hard to be open to Judaism, celebrating holidays and participating in the Jewish community, but there are some things that really bother me. My children are not considered half-Jewish because I'm not Jewish. There's this whole thing about the chosen people and outsiders/insiders. I hear it in all the liturgy. I just don't feel I can connect with it, and I also don't want to give my children the burden of thinking they are Jewish when many Jews won't consider them so. My husband is from Israel and we would not have been allowed to get married there because I am not Jewish, unless I underwent a full orthodox conversion. I was at one point willing to convert but my husband is not religious and he told me he preferred I would not. Regardless, it strikes me as a discriminatory practice that I don't feel comfortable with (on the part of the state), and it really underscored to me that I would not be considered a member of the community in many ways as we got married.

I don't really want my "issues" with this religious crap to confound the decision about circumcision. I want to keep an open mind. I know it is very important to Jewish identity and so on, and I also know there are several countries where it's becoming a human rights/consent issue. It's just getting to the point that I don't even know what I am thinking about and need something concrete to ground me. If you've read this far, and you have any similar experiences in coming to a decision, would appreciate hearing them. Thanks.

I recommend this book: https://www.amazon.com/Questioning-Circumcision-Perspective-Ronald-Goldman/dp/0964489562

We are very observant Jews and active members at an orthodox shul. We are shomer shabbat, kosher, and for the most part, very traditional. Our son had a bris on his 8th day, but we did not circumcise him. Some people call it a "Bris Shalom" (peaceful covenant as opposed to a bris milah) and choose to cut a string as a symbolic "cut". We both work to advance human rights in our day jobs and found it hypocritical to fight against infant genital mutilation and then mutilate our infant. Our Orthodox Rabbi knows that we did not circumcise and even the Chabad rebbetzin attended our son's bris shalom. Our son is accepted by the Jewish community, including the most religious members. While I do not know other members of our shul who choose not to circumcise, I do know many other orthodox Jews who choose not to circumcise and there is halakah to support this decision. Many members who found out (we don't advertise it but obviously we didn't have a mohel, so when people ask us about our mohel, it comes up), have told me that they wish they had known of this option. Pregnant women have come up to me and said they are hoping for a girl because of this issue. When they have a boy, they telll me that they wish they could be as strong as me and not circumcise but they are scared to follow the path they know is right. There was an outspoken rabbi on this issue who was a part of the Humanistic shul in DC (machar) who is against circumcision. I'd expect most of the Jews who belong to a Humanistic shul are unlikely to circumcise. I know that your children will be welcome there and all Reform shuls where Judaism passes from either the mother or the father (also halaka to support this).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's just getting to the point that I don't even know what I am thinking about and need something concrete to ground me. If you've read this far, and you have any similar experiences in coming to a decision, would appreciate hearing them. Thanks.

How about discussing this with your husband, your sons father, to get some concrete grounding. Sounds like you are confused, and I don't know how the opinions of strangers will help. Does your husband want him circumcised regardless of whether it's is during a traditional Bris, or at the hospital, or would he rather leave him uncircumcised.

I don't think he feels that strongly about it. I will probably have to decide. I don't know at the moment whether my aversion to those specific religious issues is pushing me in a direction where I am not taking into consideration the day-to-day differences of what it means to have a circumcised vs not penis. Although I understand how meaningful symbols and personal experiences can be, I generally decide things for my children based on practicality. Practicality could include things like, in this culture everyone is circumcised so it's going to make him feel like a pariah (not true, but just an example). So I wanted to hear from other people who made this decision and what concrete factors actually ended up making a difference to their experience.

Anonymous wrote:I know this is going to be a controversial post, but I'm going to ask anyway to try and sort out what I think about this. We are about to have a boy. My husband is Jewish, and I am not. I come from a culture where it's quite common not to circumcise. I never planned to, and as recent research seems to show it doesn't have medical advantages in developed nations as long as good hygiene is practiced and can interfere with sensitivity, etc., I assumed I would not. Now my husband is not pushing it and says he wants to look at the research and decide. But I know part of him feels it would be a rite of passage associated with his Jewish identity.

Here's the thing -- I've tried very hard to be open to Judaism, celebrating holidays and participating in the Jewish community, but there are some things that really bother me. My children are not considered half-Jewish because I'm not Jewish. There's this whole thing about the chosen people and outsiders/insiders. I hear it in all the liturgy. I just don't feel I can connect with it, and I also don't want to give my children the burden of thinking they are Jewish when many Jews won't consider them so. My husband is from Israel and we would not have been allowed to get married there because I am not Jewish, unless I underwent a full orthodox conversion. I was at one point willing to convert but my husband is not religious and he told me he preferred I would not. Regardless, it strikes me as a discriminatory practice that I don't feel comfortable with (on the part of the state), and it really underscored to me that I would not be considered a member of the community in many ways as we got married.

I don't really want my "issues" with this religious crap to confound the decision about circumcision. I want to keep an open mind. I know it is very important to Jewish identity and so on, and I also know there are several countries where it's becoming a human rights/consent issue. It's just getting to the point that I don't even know what I am thinking about and need something concrete to ground me. If you've read this far, and you have any similar experiences in coming to a decision, would appreciate hearing them. Thanks.