Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

This is pure rationalization for the only significant implication: your children are not smart enough and can't keep up with first generation immigrants. Rather than admit this and give credit for preseverance and hard work, you prefer to find fault in favor of your children's new genius at not making the mark/bar. You downplay TJ, MIT, Stanford and the Ivies in favor of the State schools in favor of less debt somehow ignoring the fact theat many students have less debt at these schools than the State schools. It's ok not to come in first place. it's ok to go to the local high school for general ed and it's ok to go to your state college. You don't have to spend inordinate amount of bytes defending this if it's your only alternative in a competitive landscape. Your children are not losers for this. Don't worry.

Gee thanks, I was worried what some anonymous voice on the internet thought of my kids' genius at not making the mark and lack of perseverance and hard work. I'm curious, though. What does that make the kids of pressuring parents like you who spend their childhood reaching for your bar and come up short? Where are the pictures on the prep school sites of the kids who invested hours doing their best but didn't get into TJ? What do their parents think, now that they face a life track no better than your average AP kid? Disappointment? Shame? Would you grace them with your title of "loser"? The silver lining of all this is that your grandkids won't be "first generation immigrants" and will benefit from perspective that clearly eludes you.

WOAH! Can't we just acknowledge that different people want different things?

Anonymous wrote:No one is saying doing puzzles, etc is wrong. No one is saying studying for the history test is wrong. The complaint is working with copies/booklets that are nearly identical to the test such that the kids have effectively seen the exact questions in advance.

The score that results is inflated relative to the individual's baseline: it is not an accurate measure.
The county AAP committee knows this happens. That is why, every spring, you will see posts saying my kid with a 134 CogAT was not admitted because of the 7 GBRS. The county, when looking at the preponderance of the evidence discounts the 134, and looks at the GBRS, the commentary, and the work samples.

This issue is not a problem in multi-generational americans because we are familiar with our educational system which allows for nearly unlimited opportunities. 1) You don't have to be in AAP to go to get an MD/PhD from Harvard. Heck, I know people with PhD's from Harvard that started at SW Missouri State. I know people with PhD's from MIT that started at community colleges. I have a PhD from a comparable school (Caltech), and had a 2.3 GPA in HS. Because, once I am in HS, MS does not matter...Once I am in college, where I went to HS does not matter. No one asks me my HS GPA anymore; if they do, I give it and we laugh. (Oh, and for what it is worth, I always did good on the exams without prep. I can assure you I did not get my 2.3 HS gpa from hard work).

The people that care about the prepping are those that come from countries (usually first generation) where ones track is set at a very early age. In India, the country does not have the resources to give everyone multiple opportunities. So, if one is not in the right track at an early age, they are not able to have success; I have talked to my friends about this -- the ones pushing their daughter to TJ. They get it, but then counter we want her to get into the right college. I want my daughter to graduate without debt -- that is the right college for me (hence state schools).

And it all comes back to the mentality of test prep. I absolutely do things to provide long term intellectual growth for my daughter through reading, music, and nature. But I do not worry about the performance on any one test. It is not important in our society (except for maybe the bar examine).

_____


This is pure rationalization for the only significant implication: your children are not smart enough and can't keep up with first generation immigrants. Rather than admit this and give credit for preseverance and hard work, you prefer to find fault in favor of your children's new genius at not making the mark/bar. You downplay TJ, MIT, Stanford and the Ivies in favor of the State schools in favor of less debt somehow ignoring the fact theat many students have less debt at these schools than the State schools. It's ok not to come in first place. it's ok to go to the local high school for general ed and it's ok to go to your
state college. You don't have to spend inordinate amount of bytes defending this if it's your only alternative in a competitive landscape. Your children are not losers for this. Don't worry.

Anonymous wrote:

This is pure rationalization for the only significant implication: your children are not smart enough and can't keep up with first generation immigrants. Rather than admit this and give credit for preseverance and hard work, you prefer to find fault in favor of your children's new genius at not making the mark/bar. You downplay TJ, MIT, Stanford and the Ivies in favor of the State schools in favor of less debt somehow ignoring the fact theat many students have less debt at these schools than the State schools. It's ok not to come in first place. it's ok to go to the local high school for general ed and it's ok to go to your state college. You don't have to spend inordinate amount of bytes defending this if it's your only alternative in a competitive landscape. Your children are not losers for this. Don't worry.

Gee thanks, I was worried what some anonymous voice on the internet thought of my kids' genius at not making the mark and lack of perseverance and hard work. I'm curious, though. What does that make the kids of pressuring parents like you who spend their childhood reaching for your bar and come up short? Where are the pictures on the prep school sites of the kids who invested hours doing their best but didn't get into TJ? What do their parents think, now that they face a life track no better than your average AP kid? Disappointment? Shame? Would you grace them with your title of "loser"? The silver lining of all this is that your grandkids won't be "first generation immigrants" and will benefit from perspective that clearly eludes you.

This is pure rationalization for the only significant implication: your children are not smart enough and can't keep up with first generation immigrants. Rather than admit this and give credit for preseverance and hard work, you prefer to find fault in favor of your children's new genius at not making the mark/bar. You downplay TJ, MIT, Stanford and the Ivies in favor of the State schools in favor of less debt somehow ignoring the fact theat many students have less debt at these schools than the State schools. It's ok not to come in first place. it's ok to go to the local high school for general ed and it's ok to go to your state college. You don't have to spend inordinate amount of bytes defending this if it's your only alternative in a competitive landscape. Your children are not losers for this. Don't worry.

No one is saying doing puzzles, etc is wrong. No one is saying studying for the history test is wrong. The complaint is working with copies/booklets that are nearly identical to the test such that the kids have effectively seen the exact questions in advance.

The score that results is inflated relative to the individual's baseline: it is not an accurate measure.
The county AAP committee knows this happens. That is why, every spring, you will see posts saying my kid with a 134 CogAT was not admitted because of the 7 GBRS. The county, when looking at the preponderance of the evidence discounts the 134, and looks at the GBRS, the commentary, and the work samples.

This issue is not a problem in multi-generational americans because we are familiar with our educational system which allows for nearly unlimited opportunities. 1) You don't have to be in AAP to go to get an MD/PhD from Harvard. Heck, I know people with PhD's from Harvard that started at SW Missouri State. I know people with PhD's from MIT that started at community colleges. I have a PhD from a comparable school (Caltech), and had a 2.3 GPA in HS. Because, once I am in HS, MS does not matter...Once I am in college, where I went to HS does not matter. No one asks me my HS GPA anymore; if they do, I give it and we laugh. (Oh, and for what it is worth, I always did good on the exams without prep. I can assure you I did not get my 2.3 HS gpa from hard work).

The people that care about the prepping are those that come from countries (usually first generation) where ones track is set at a very early age. In India, the country does not have the resources to give everyone multiple opportunities. So, if one is not in the right track at an early age, they are not able to have success; I have talked to my friends about this -- the ones pushing their daughter to TJ. They get it, but then counter we want her to get into the right college. I want my daughter to graduate without debt -- that is the right college for me (hence state schools).

And it all comes back to the mentality of test prep. I absolutely do things to provide long term intellectual growth for my daughter through reading, music, and nature. But I do not worry about the performance on any one test. It is not important in our society (except for maybe the bar examine).

Anonymous wrote:Agreed. This is not innate. One is not born with it. This ability can be modeled,

and improved with training.

Some kids just look at a math problem and know how to do it. Some need to be shown how, in great detail. The kid who can figure it out right away will be able to learn more and more quickly than the child that needs to be shown every step. Those two kids have different needs in the classroom.

Anonymous wrote:CogAT prep is crucial only for kids who have trouble solving problems for themselves. Some kids can't solve a problem without someone showing them how in advance and would benefit from test prep. If I have noticed that my child has trouble answering questions that he has never seen before, or takes a long time to answer new problems, I would worry that that child could only get a good score on the test if he were shown in advance the problems we might expect on the test.

So, sure, if someone thinks his or her child can memorize but is not really a good problem solver, test prep could help make a child look more advanced than he actually is.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If the questions being studied in advance are so similar that only a few words have been changed, it is essentially the same as seeing the test itself.

Someone who has studied the questions on several practice tests is exhibiting a different kind of intelligence than someone who can look at a puzzle or problem for the first time and solve it quickly. It illustrates one area of intelligence to be able to study and memorize how to solve a type of problem; the person who looks at problem s/he has never seen before and solves it quickly and easily is exhibiting a different area of intelligence.

Memorizing the work of another is different from doing working out one's own answers. A person can be trained to remember long lists of unrelated items, but that is different than working out a solution when presented with a problem. In adult life, we sometimes have to deal with problems that have never been dealt with before. Those who can think for themselves and provide answers in complex situations can lead the way for others. One can't always fall back on a solution that worked in the past; we need people who think on their feet and innovate.