Anonymous wrote:Atheist here - DH asked me to type: "Salvation does not depend on you, but rather on God, who is right to save."


Why is it that you believe in the Christian God when Allah, and Vishnu exist?

...what if you got it wrong?

It boggles my mind that your God, your loving, all powerful, all forgiving God, would give a crap if salvation occurred 30 seconds before death instead of the 30 seconds after. WHY does that matter?

I believe in the Judeo-Christian God (Jehovah) because I believe in Jesus Christ. He was God in the flesh, walking among us. Allah had his prophet Mohamed to tell his story, but that is all. No other religion or god comes close to the capturing the soul of humanity in the way that the God of the Jews and Christians does.

I did not get it wrong!

And as for your last statement/ question, again... we don't know. We simply don't know in the end who is "right with God." Thankfully, I don't have to make that call.

Anonymous wrote:Atheist here - DH asked me to type: "Salvation does not depend on you, but rather on God, who is right to save."


Why is it that you believe in the Christian God when Allah, and Vishnu exist?

...what if you got it wrong?

It boggles my mind that your God, your loving, all powerful, all forgiving God, would give a crap if salvation occurred 30 seconds before death instead of the 30 seconds after. WHY does that matter?

It's part of Christian teaching. Everyone who goes to sunday school learns it. Maybe it's easier to accept when you're young and the adults in your life tell you about it.

Missionaries have gone around the world to spread the word in order to help people receive God's saving grace.

Anonymous wrote:Thanks PPs, I was raised atheist and honestly had no idea this was the way it worked. I was just quizzing DH, who was raised Christian and he went on about how there is a variety of beliefs: salvation by faith, grace, and then pre-destination.

Can you tell me what "belief" requires? Do I have to just "think" that maybe I can get there at some point, or like, really, truly believe it, as if it were fact? Is this like a Locke definition, or do religions have differing definitions for what constitutes belief?

20:56 here again.

We can parse this all day but the bottom line is, God will judge in the end. We, as Christians, follow Christ. The more we follow Him, the more we want to follow Him because it is truly a life-changing experience in THIS life, not just beyond. Jesus also said very plainly, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No man gets to the Father except through me." So yes, I believe that Jesus is the only way to God. But I also know that I follow Him on earth because I choose to live that way NOW.

Atheist here - DH asked me to type: "Salvation does not depend on you, but rather on God, who is right to save."


Why is it that you believe in the Christian God when Allah, and Vishnu exist?

...what if you got it wrong?

It boggles my mind that your God, your loving, all powerful, all forgiving God, would give a crap if salvation occurred 30 seconds before death instead of the 30 seconds after. WHY does that matter?

Anonymous wrote:Thanks PPs, I was raised atheist and honestly had no idea this was the way it worked. I was just quizzing DH, who was raised Christian and he went on about how there is a variety of beliefs: salvation by faith, grace, and then pre-destination.

Can you tell me what "belief" requires? Do I have to just "think" that maybe I can get there at some point, or like, really, truly believe it, as if it were fact? Is this like a Locke definition, or do religions have differing definitions for what constitutes belief?

There is some variation among Christian denominations, but all of them believe that Jesus died for our sins and you must believe in him to enter heaven.

It's fine that people make up these beliefs that are nicer than what every Christian denomination says, but if you go by the book, that's not what it's like.

I think people make up things that seem reasonable, but the teachings of Christ are determine the truth, not some 21st century watering down of things.

It seems like they are taking a similar chance on heaven that the hypothetical doctor is taking -- assuming that what makes sense to them is how it will be when they die.

Everyone can't be right, though can they? All these good people - some believe in god and some don't. Some bad people believe in god too, but it's very clear in Christianity that belief in God is what is necessary to get into heaven. No one can deny that. Common sense and human decency are fine, but ultimately, it's god's word that matters.

Thanks PPs, I was raised atheist and honestly had no idea this was the way it worked. I was just quizzing DH, who was raised Christian and he went on about how there is a variety of beliefs: salvation by faith, grace, and then pre-destination.

Can you tell me what "belief" requires? Do I have to just "think" that maybe I can get there at some point, or like, really, truly believe it, as if it were fact? Is this like a Locke definition, or do religions have differing definitions for what constitutes belief?

Anonymous wrote:Do Christians reading this agree with PP? Is that really what they believe?!

Do I believe what the Bible says about salvation? Yes. That Jesus is "the way, the truth, and the life" and no one comes to the Father except through him.

But I said before, even the Catholic Church teaches that non-Christians have a shot at heaven. From Vatican II: This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.

This link explains more: http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/what-no-salvation-outside-the-church-means

I am not Catholic - but I believe God's grace can save non-Christians. I think it's unlikely, and not something to count on, but I believe it can happen.

Anonymous wrote:Do Christians reading this agree with PP? Is that really what they believe?!

I am a Christian who frequently debates this PP here on DCUM. I know it's the same person because the writing style and sticking points with certain issues of Christianity are the same, over and over.

Nonetheless, this is a very important question and issue. Here is what I believe. We don't know. You don't know, I don't know, PP doesn't know about the fate of our friend the atheist doctor, who dies in a car crash while working for DWB.

I refer you to Matthew 7:23, where Jesus says that people will come to God touting their beliefs and good works on earth. Jesus says, "I never knew you." And then there is the flip side: Jesus hanging on the cross next to the hardened criminal. He immediately tells him, "today, you will be with me in Paradise." (That is somewhere in Luke; I forget the exact reference.)

So, putting this all together, I reinforce my point -- God knows us, our minds, our hearts, our souls and our works, better than even we do. He will judge. We do not.

Do Christians reading this agree with PP? Is that really what they believe?!

Anonymous wrote:The doctor is atheist. He has made up his mind. He does not accept God in any way. Why would he have concerns about the afterlife. He doesn't believe in an afterlife. We didn't say he was agnostic.

You're right, the doctor doesn't have concerns about the afterlife while he's alive. He fully expects everything to go dark when he dies, just like it was before he was born - no consciousness before life or after death. But if there IS a god, then he finds out about it, like everyone else, after he dies. That's when he might become concerned, because he realizes he was wrong and will suffer for his mistake for eternity. He can beg god all he wants, pointing out all the good things he did while he was alive, all the Christians he cared for who will go to heaven when they die, but it won't hold any weight with God, who made it perfectly clear during the doctor's life that belief in God was the one thing needed for entry into heaven. One simple thing, and the doctor wouldn't do it. He gets his just deserts.

The doctor is atheist. He has made up his mind. He does not accept God in any way. Why would he have concerns about the afterlife. He doesn't believe in an afterlife. We didn't say he was agnostic.

I can't tell if PP is a Christian and actually buys this shit or if they're sarcastucally pointing out the utter ridiculousness of it. Either way it's beautiful. Cheers PP!

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Anonymous wrote:Meh I'll count on one of the religions that gives me salvation after death There are a few of those right?

Christianity gives you salvation after death, as long as you believed in God and Jesus during your life. Even if you accept Christ at the very last moment before you die, you can still go to heaven, no matter how sinful your life has been. God in his mercy gives all his children this last chance.

However, if you die suddenly, with no warning, and have not yet accepted Christ, then you cannot get into heaven.

I love this part.

An atheist who works with Doctors Without Borders who dies of a heart attack won't enter heaven.

b/c your god is a loving god

Why would he want to enter heaven if he denies Christ? You really can't have it both ways.

He doesn't deny Christ -- just doesn't believe in him. Why doesn't Christ want a good person in his eternal kingdom? Because "good" isn't the main criterion -- faith is.

Do you believe in a god like this? Fine. I suspect the doctors without borders don't want anything to do such a character - and so don't believe in him.

Not believing in Him is denying Him. That's such a strange argument.

So again, why would this doctor want to go to heaven?

I am personally glad that "good" isn't the sole criteria (I say sole to avoid arguments from the faith without works camp). Quite simply, we can never measure up. We can never be good enough. Thankfully, we don't have to be.

I feel similarly. If the doctor thinks God is no more than a story and has already settled on the idea that all awareness ends with life on earth, then what's the problem? That doctor just ends and he doesn't have to go on.

But if the doctor is wrong and there really is a god and a heaven (and hell) he doesn't "just end" Instead, God, according to his own rules, is obliged to send the doctor who did so much good while alive, to hell.

Ah hah!!! So this described do-gooder doctor/ atheist DOES have doubts about his beliefs, or non-beliefs as the case is here. I knew it.

NO, No Doubts while he's alive -- the doctor finds out after he's dead that there's a god. It's too late then, because god has to send him to hell for not believing in him. The most important thing for God, is not that you're a good person, it's that you believe in him even though you can't see him, that he sometimes or never answers your prayers and he occasionally or frequently lets bad things happen to you. Despite all that, you still believe in him. God favors people like that with an eternity in heaven.

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Anonymous wrote:I don't think formal religion is necessary.

But I do believe religion is necessary for kids - it gives them answers to all your DD's questions. Gives them a reason to be good, love one another, etc. It sure helped when our cat died 2 weeks ago (Jesus left a note for 3 yr old DD that he came and took her to heaven, clouds drawn around it etc). I asked DD tonite "where's kitty?" She told me in heaven with Jesus. And I've never taken her to church. And telling her not to hit because it makes Jesus sad works too.

When my DD is older, she can read the bible and internet or whatever and formulate her own modified beliefs, but I think a childhood without religion is seriously lacking. Plus, with no religion now, there's no choice to make later. I think it's near impossible to make that leap as an adult. I'd think it's like trying to convince a jewish or muslim person that jesus was the messiah and god was his dad.

News flash -- There are no pets in heaven according to any Christian denomination. Animals don't have souls and humans do, according to Christian teaching. So that when people die, if they have followed the lord, their souls go to heaven. But there are no cats and dogs there because they do not have souls. There are also no notes from Jesus.

I suggest taking your DD to church so she can learn real religion and stop making up your own religion. As someone else mentioned, it just sounds like Santa Claus. Pure fantasy.

NEWS FLASH - that issue is not addressed in the Bible directly whatsoever. And don't tell me that my religion is not a "real religion" - I can read the Bible, or any other religious text for that matter, and formulate my own beliefs thank you goodbye.

Sure - lots of people formulate their own beliefs -- that's how different Christian denominations got their start. But no Christian religion has a pet heaven, so if your religion does, it's not a form of Christianity and if your daughter tells people she got a note from Jesus telling her that her pet was safe in heaven, she's going to find out from others that you're making things up.

In no Christian denomination does Jesus deliver notes to anyone on any subject. Santa Claus does write letters back to kids sometime, but at some point kids realize that is make believe. Do you want you daughter to think that Jesus is make-believe?