Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslims, either individually or collectively, are not responsible for what happened and should not have to apologize for being Muslim nor should they be or feel forced to distance themselves from the attacks. Is it just me, or is this statement inconsistent?

Muslima--could you respond to the bolded?

+1,000

Anonymous wrote:Seriously? Remember the riots in the muslim communities in France not too long ago because they felt stigmatized? France has always have a REAL problem with its Muslim population.. There is a reason why the extreme right-wing National Front is so popular in France.


PP above, I think you are conflating France with America when you speak about freedom of dress , religious expression , etc..

There is nothing inherent in people, who practice the Muslim faith ,that the French don't like. Look at the business they did for centuries with Sunni silk mechants in Lebanon and Syria. The French though are a people with VERY high and, a little rigid, social standards for those who come onto their soil. These are rather strict people in terms of wanting to preserve " French Culture" THey teach young children to conform, " to be French" , " this is the way you must…" And, they do not like a minority that amounts to 10% of their population not conforming to their standards in dress, in manner , in decorum.

This looking down that the French do, is not just reserved for Arabs. For example, they also hold in contempt : Americans. And for what ? For the great offense we give by showing up in the millions every summer [i]in sneakers with our fanny packs, talking loudly in halting accents from Texas butchering their language with our demonstration of cultural ignorance. They hate us too knowing that we are dropping $$$$ Millions into their economy. Enter a "non -tourist" restaurant as an American and there is a mild wave of "oh no" that comes over the room. I suppose tehy fear more of us might come and ruin their restaurant…

Its a small country with a long history that has had to fight for its survival many times. They will resist a minority going against the grain of what they hold as " the French way" ( in terms of head scarfs and Hijab)

It should not surprise you that the country where McDonalds was fire bombed, would passionately reject the head scarf. Perhaps if they had all been neatly coifed Hermes, but its too late for that now…. Its not the religion that is primarily being rejected , its the push back from a group which is viewed as not measuring up to their standards and VERY few people can anyway.

Liberal and moderate French will likely support muslim rights to soem extent, but attacks like this make it hard for them to go on doing so . Remember , its their country that they see being attacked.

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Muslima, it is interesting that you cited the French law against the burka (if I understand the law prohibit the wearing in public of the full veil that totally covers the face). I am from Italy, and a law like that has been in existence for ever, well before that anybody could even think that Muslims could one day live in Italy. simply the government did not want to have people go around with faces totally covered to a point that they could not be recognized. as for the burka, I am not an expert but the Quran apparently does not say anywhere that women need to cover themselves like that. it simply says that they need to dress "modestly". "modesty" obviously changes with times and places. one hundred years ago my grandma told me that women in Italy would not weak pants because it would be considered scandalous, now they do. you can dress modestly in France as much as you want. however if you feel the need to put a blanket on your body and leave two holes for your eyes, maybe you should consider moving to Yemen, where your idea of modesty is more generally shared. decades ago women in Arab countries in North Africa (except for the Arab peninsula) did not weak the burka. now more women do it. this has nothing to do with modesty, but unfortunately with oil money that has allowed a strict interpretation of Islam by a few millions of backward uneducated desert dwellers to be shoveled down the throats of other Muslims

The issue is not whether the burqa is mandatory or not in Islam. The question is why are women, French citizens nonetheless who freely choose to wear a Burqa because they believe it is their religious right/freedom to dress that way, do not have the right under French Law to do so?And this, since 2010? So you have these Niqabis who were living in France prior to 2010 who suddenly have to change the way they dress or else be fined every single day? If we are talking about Freedom of Speech, then why aren't they allow to dress they way they choose fit? Why the double standard?

Because the wearing of a burqa endangers the rest of the public in France. It is not a mandatory part of the Muslim religion, i.e. you are free to say prayers whenever you like or practice other parts of your religion. In fact, you are free to wear the burqa as much as you like in the comfort of your own home. If a French Muslim is uncomfortable with the law, they are free to move to countries where this is embraced.

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Muslima, it is interesting that you cited the French law against the burka (if I understand the law prohibit the wearing in public of the full veil that totally covers the face). I am from Italy, and a law like that has been in existence for ever, well before that anybody could even think that Muslims could one day live in Italy. simply the government did not want to have people go around with faces totally covered to a point that they could not be recognized. as for the burka, I am not an expert but the Quran apparently does not say anywhere that women need to cover themselves like that. it simply says that they need to dress "modestly". "modesty" obviously changes with times and places. one hundred years ago my grandma told me that women in Italy would not weak pants because it would be considered scandalous, now they do. you can dress modestly in France as much as you want. however if you feel the need to put a blanket on your body and leave two holes for your eyes, maybe you should consider moving to Yemen, where your idea of modesty is more generally shared. decades ago women in Arab countries in North Africa (except for the Arab peninsula) did not weak the burka. now more women do it. this has nothing to do with modesty, but unfortunately with oil money that has allowed a strict interpretation of Islam by a few millions of backward uneducated desert dwellers to be shoveled down the throats of other Muslims

The issue is not whether the burqa is mandatory or not in Islam. The question is why are women, French citizens nonetheless who freely choose to wear a Burqa because they believe it is their religious right/freedom to dress that way, do not have the right under French Law to do so?And this, since 2010? So you have these Niqabis who were living in France prior to 2010 who suddenly have to change the way they dress or else be fined every single day? If we are talking about Freedom of Speech, then why aren't they allow to dress they way they choose fit? Why the double standard?

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Muslima, it is interesting that you cited the French law against the burka (if I understand the law prohibit the wearing in public of the full veil that totally covers the face). I am from Italy, and a law like that has been in existence for ever, well before that anybody could even think that Muslims could one day live in Italy. simply the government did not want to have people go around with faces totally covered to a point that they could not be recognized. as for the burka, I am not an expert but the Quran apparently does not say anywhere that women need to cover themselves like that. it simply says that they need to dress "modestly". "modesty" obviously changes with times and places. one hundred years ago my grandma told me that women in Italy would not weak pants because it would be considered scandalous, now they do. you can dress modestly in France as much as you want. however if you feel the need to put a blanket on your body and leave two holes for your eyes, maybe you should consider moving to Yemen, where your idea of modesty is more generally shared. decades ago women in Arab countries in North Africa (except for the Arab peninsula) did not weak the burka. now more women do it. this has nothing to do with modesty, but unfortunately with oil money that has allowed a strict interpretation of Islam by a few millions of backward uneducated desert dwellers to be shoveled down the throats of other Muslims

The issue is not whether the burqa is mandatory or not in Islam. The question is why are women, French citizens nonetheless who freely choose to wear a Burqa because they believe it is their religious right/freedom to dress that way, do not have the right under French Law to do so?And this, since 2010? So you have these Niqabis who were living in France prior to 2010 who suddenly have to change the way they dress or else be fined every single day? If we are talking about Freedom of Speech, then why aren't they allow to dress they way they choose fit? Why the double standard?

Women do NOT get to choose whether to wear a burqa or not. It is imposed on them by their family and social pressures. Just like affirmative action, gov needs to work to change society for the greater good.

Muslim leaders, sociologists and human rights activists argue that more than in most other European countries, government social policies in France have served to isolate Muslims in impoverished suburbs that have high unemployment, inferior schools and substandard housing. This has helped create a generation of French-born children with little hope of social advancement and even less respect for French authority.

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Muslima, it is interesting that you cited the French law against the burka (if I understand the law prohibit the wearing in public of the full veil that totally covers the face). I am from Italy, and a law like that has been in existence for ever, well before that anybody could even think that Muslims could one day live in Italy. simply the government did not want to have people go around with faces totally covered to a point that they could not be recognized. as for the burka, I am not an expert but the Quran apparently does not say anywhere that women need to cover themselves like that. it simply says that they need to dress "modestly". "modesty" obviously changes with times and places. one hundred years ago my grandma told me that women in Italy would not weak pants because it would be considered scandalous, now they do. you can dress modestly in France as much as you want. however if you feel the need to put a blanket on your body and leave two holes for your eyes, maybe you should consider moving to Yemen, where your idea of modesty is more generally shared. decades ago women in Arab countries in North Africa (except for the Arab peninsula) did not weak the burka. now more women do it. this has nothing to do with modesty, but unfortunately with oil money that has allowed a strict interpretation of Islam by a few millions of backward uneducated desert dwellers to be shoveled down the throats of other Muslims

The issue is not whether the burqa is mandatory or not in Islam. The question is why are women, French citizens nonetheless who freely choose to wear a Burqa because they believe it is their religious right/freedom to dress that way, do not have the right under French Law to do so?And this, since 2010? So you have these Niqabis who were living in France prior to 2010 who suddenly have to change the way they dress or else be fined every single day? If we are talking about Freedom of Speech, then why aren't they allow to dress they way they choose fit? Why the double standard?

Anonymous wrote:Muslima, it is interesting that you cited the French law against the burka (if I understand the law prohibit the wearing in public of the full veil that totally covers the face). I am from Italy, and a law like that has been in existence for ever, well before that anybody could even think that Muslims could one day live in Italy. simply the government did not want to have people go around with faces totally covered to a point that they could not be recognized. as for the burka, I am not an expert but the Quran apparently does not say anywhere that women need to cover themselves like that. it simply says that they need to dress "modestly". "modesty" obviously changes with times and places. one hundred years ago my grandma told me that women in Italy would not weak pants because it would be considered scandalous, now they do. you can dress modestly in France as much as you want. however if you feel the need to put a blanket on your body and leave two holes for your eyes, maybe you should consider moving to Yemen, where your idea of modesty is more generally shared. decades ago women in Arab countries in North Africa (except for the Arab peninsula) did not weak the burka. now more women do it. this has nothing to do with modesty, but unfortunately with oil money that has allowed a strict interpretation of Islam by a few millions of backward uneducated desert dwellers to be shoveled down the throats of other Muslims

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why on earth are news organizations covering this story refusing the show images of any CH cartoons that may be offensive to Muslims? It's a central part of the story. Seriously? We're going to pixelate the images and only describe them in our stories?

http://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2015/01/news-orgs-censor-charlie-hebdo-cartoons-after-attack-200709.html#disqus_thread

The French in the streets tonight are chanting "we are [all] Charlie [Hebdo]!"

In contrast, our media's censorship screams out: WE ARE NOT CHARLIE!! WE WONT SHOW EVEN ONE SINGLE IMAGE FROM CHARLIE -EVEN JUST TODAY!

How pathetic of our supposedly free media. They are fucking cowards. And if you find "fucking" an offensive word, then good; our threshold for offense in this country is obviously set far too low.

BTW, where can I subscribe to Charlie Hebdo?

Anonymous wrote:

Muslims, either individually or collectively, are not responsible for what happened and should not have to apologize for being Muslim nor should they be or feel forced to distance themselves from the attacks. Is it just me, or is this statement inconsistent?

Muslima--could you respond to the bolded?

Anonymous wrote:Why on earth are news organizations covering this story refusing the show images of any CH cartoons that may be offensive to Muslims? It's a central part of the story. Seriously? We're going to pixelate the images and only describe them in our stories?

http://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2015/01/news-orgs-censor-charlie-hebdo-cartoons-after-attack-200709.html#disqus_thread

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:In the words of my friend, nothing can justify the disgraceful attacks against Charlie Hebdo. Murder is murder. It is not the Prophet (saw) who was avenged, it is our religion, our values and Islamic principles that have been betrayed and tainted . The kind of things ?CharlieHebdo? published were not decent. But whatever filth they published, they did NOT deserve to be killed for it.
Now even if the perpetrators of the attack claimed to be Muslim and supposedly shouted that they "avenged the Prophet", Muslims, either individually or collectively, are not responsible for what happened and should not have to apologize for being Muslim nor should they be or feel forced to distance themselves from the attacks. This is not some kind of declaration of war on Western civilization. Both the universal freedom of speech as well as Islam as a religion of compassion are under attack here. With the neo-fascist Front National growing in France, the Islamophobic Pegida next door, the far-right growing everywhere and a security state across the West waiting for any excuse to seize more civil liberties, nobody wins here by giving in to this rhetoric but those who want to sow hate on all sides.
Yes, we should be angry and sad about what happened, but we should not accept the invitation of the perpetrators of the attack to join them in their hatefulness. My deep sympathy and sincere condolences to the families of the victims.

There are many who would say Charlie Hebdo was not filth but satire. Just as many would say the Onion, which I enjoy, is satire.

However, everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion of what they view as filth. That's my and your right. How sad that someones definition of 'filth' took away the lives of husbands, wives, parents, sisters, brothers, and the right of free speech.

This. I'm of Middle Eastern origin and one of my grandmothers was a devout Muslim ( although fortunately the rest of the family freed itself from the yoke of religion altogether). I'm also a dual French-U.S. Citizen and I'm horrified and heartbroken about this massacre.
Charlie Hebdo is a satirical publication and it pokes fun at everyone, no matter how mightly or low, whether from the right or the left, and no matter their religion. It embodies the very principles at the heart of an open and democratic society, and this is nothing more than another attempt to destroy that freedom of speech.
So Muslima, don't come here spouting any of your propaganda about how Islam is a religion of compassion. All religions are selectively compassionate towards some tiny subset of humanity and ruthlessly violent towards the rest, and Islam isn't faring too well right now. Not since the Protestant reformation has a religion killed so many of its own, let alone others, in the name of God.
I was born in the Middle East but France gave me everything that has allowed me to get where I am today: a wonderful, secular, rigorous education (to a female, no less!), welcoming and loving friends without a trace of prejudice in their heart... I could go on but I think I'll start crying.
If you're worried about the Front National, good luck. That was one fine way of ingratiating Muslims to the hearts of the average French citizen.

You have got to be kidding me. Liberte, egalite, fraternite? Well my fellow french woman, France is one of the most intolerant countries in Europe, and you can look no further than the relationship between France and its colonies. Carrying a french passport won't make me say otherwise. Just 2 years ago, repirts still showed this, France is the most racist western European country , 1 in 3 French openly states they are racist. Lepen anyone? I have spent many years in France and half of my family still lives there. There are 3 things you do not want to be in France: Arab, Black or Muslim. Va demander os jeunes des cites relegues ds les HLM ce kils pensent de ton idee d'education a la francaise, la France ouverte qui t'a permi d'evoluer? Non mais tu blagues la ! Give me a break!

Et toi ma cherie, tu es une hypocrite, as is the rest of your family. If France is so bad, why don't you all go home to wherever you came from that was so great and renounce your citizenship? France was wonderful to me, and I suspect our backgrounds aren't so different (although you probably did not put your education to good use because you can't spell). One thing I can't stand is people who move to another country and then spend all their time sh******* on it. Ah yes, their culture is too permissive, their women are sluts, they have the gall of asking me to show my face for a picture ID...
If it's so bad to be Arab in France, why are there such thriving but moderate Arab communities there? Why do Saudi Arabian families own so many of the expensive houses in Paris, where they can come and party far from the stifling restrictions back home?
Hypocrits.

My dear, go and learn the definition of "hypocrite". First, I do not carry a French passport (by choice) though I can legally get one and I do not reside in France. My grandmother descends from a long line of French women, and my grandparents fought the war alongside their French brothers/sisters, so yeah liberte, egalite, fraternite? We fought for that. I do not identify as French though it's part of my heritage. Part of my family that lives there are French, not immigrants, so yeah, your comment about "go back where you're from" is laughable coming from a middle eastern man who immigrated to France as you described yourself. And , no I am sure that you and are not of the same background, nor of a close background. Now if your idea of French immigrants thriving is that Saudi immigrants own expensive houses in Paris, lol then this discussion is moot. You obviously don't understand the disparity, discrimination, racism that is blatant in France, so much so that there are many articles on the topic, google it. Self-imposed ignorance is not cute. Now as far as my spelling , you will have to bear with me, since I'm typing from my phone, and I don't think any of my forum comments would ever make it to a Law review paper, really, it is not that serious!

You keep skirting the points I'm making. To conclude:
Your ancestors fought for liberte, egalite, fraternite, but you also say that just because you can say something that others might find distasteful "filth" doesn't mean you should say it. Evidently, the idea of "liberte" somehow got completely lost somewhere in your journey. A free, open, democratic society does not kowtow to the kind of intimidation that religious fervor wishes to impose.

And regarding the fact that there are thriving Arab communities in France, it's absolutely relevant. You seem to be mistaking inherent racism with the kind of revulsion people often feel towards people who are poor, dependent and frequently unwilling to assimilate. Was I targeted with racist comments when I lived in France? Sure, once in a blue moon. I occasionally get them here too. So? The good things that came to me as a result of living in an open, democratic country far, far exceeded the disadvantages. Oh and by the way, I'm a woman, not a man.

With regards to the French being so racist, please...I grew up in contact with a lot of Middle Eastern Muslims. I witnessed firsthand the importance they attach to light skin color among their own. The nasty comments made about people behind their backs, even within families, to the effect that so and so is ugly because he/she is "dark". Anyone who's spent an iota of time in these countries can testify as to how socially stratified they are based on skin color, not to mention the kind of misery they inflict on Bangladeshi or Indian workers in their midst. You can pull this kind of white guilt crap with a lot of Western readers on DCUM, but not with me.
That said, it's true that today's massacre was a gift of astounding proportions to the Front National.
And as far as ignorance is concerned, yours is on display when you lecture about French colonialism, which for all its faults, was always inherently assimilationist. I still remember my third grade teacher almost 40 years ago telling us we were going to learn a poem "by a great French poet, Leopold Sedar Senghor." But I realize it's always easier to pose as a victim.

The bottom line though, is that your notion that you should refrain from saying offensive things is undemocratic and blames the victims. And it's a slippery slope from there to getting people killed. Others seem to agree:
http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/blame-for-charlie-hebdo-murders

In 2010, France banned the wearing of niqabs and burqas and other clothing that conceal one’s face in public places. The lawfollowed a resolution of the National Assembly, which considered that the wearing of the full veil in public is “incompatible with the values of the [French] Republic”. The lawmakers saw the covering of the face as contrary to the “ideal of fraternity” and the “minimum requirement of civility” that is “necessary for social interaction”. A violation of the law is punishable by a fine, at the rate applying to second-class petty offences up to 150 euros, and the obligation to follow a citizenship course.

In the early 1980s, an extreme right-wing movement called the National Front, led by Jean-Marie Le Pen, rose to prominence on a nativist platform that played on colonial stereotypes of Arabs as lazy, shifty, and recalcitrant. The National Front advocated limiting when and how foreign residents could get French citizenship, and although its calls were opposed by a slew of largely secular, generally left-leaning groups, anti-immigrant sentiments took on a new respectability. In the 1960s and 1970s, immigrants had generally been thought of as workers. By the mid-1980s, they were considered Arabs. From there it was only a small step before they were seen as Muslims first and foremost.

According to Vincent Geisser, of the government think tank Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique, Islamophobia in France, unlike elsewhere in Europe, is largely an intellectual phenomenon driven by the elites, and it stems less from insecurity than from racialist ideology. This may explain why, although under no particular pressure, President Jacques Chirac decided in 2003 to appoint a commission to revisit the headscarf issue. The move sparked a strident public debate that ended with the passage of a law in 2004 banning students from wearing any signs that "conspicuously" reveal religious affiliation. Supporters justified the measure in the name of laïcité, gender equality, and the sanctity of public schools, pointing out that the law also prohibited yarmulkes and large crucifixes. But critics of the ban argued that it was based on an interpretation of laïcité that was neither philosophically necessary nor historically justified. And many Muslims saw it as a gratuitous restriction tailored specifically to them. It also seemed to bear out the bleak conclusion of immigration expert Patrick Weil, who has noted that "when faced with cultural diversity, [the French Republic] tends first to forget, or even violate, its own principles, and then to apply them in the worst conditions."

Anonymous wrote:I wonder if France will start paying attention to what's going on around them for a change?

Love, light, and prayers for those injured and killed.