Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One last attempt to help Christians understand why Jews might not like the idea of a Christian seder:

http://www.episcopalcafe.com/daily/interfaith/say_no_to_christian_seders.php

I see nothing in this post that hasn't already been said here. It's a false equivalency to suggest that a Jew or Muslim "play-acting" the Eucharist is the same thing as a reenact of the Last Supper, which is at the very root of the Christian faith. But we have all registered your arguments and I am sorry you take such offense, especially when it is not intended.

I want to ask a serious question. What, if anything, can be done to move past the history of persecution? I'm not down-playing it by any means, but I don't understand how Christians ignoring or denying the fact that their religion has its roots in Judaism is helpful to that cause.

OK, I am going to get sucked back in at the risk of being called dense, stupid and an asshole.

I will answer your serious question with a serious answer: nothing. There is no moving past persecution for Jews, it is essential to how we view ourselves. It is how we have stayed a cohesive unit under the most hostile circumstances. As a child you are taught about the persecution of Jews as soon as you are old enough to talk. No judgement here, it is just a cultural fact.

As for Christian roots: Passover seder (which someone pointed out means "order") as we know it was not established until after the destruction of the second temple in 70 AD. I don't really know how Passover was celebrated in the time of Jesus, but it could not have been with a "seder." That is post-Jesus, and therefore not part of Christian roots.

So that makes me (and other Jews) think that the Christians doing this know very little about Judaism and don't really care to find out.

Going to a Jewish seder sends the opposite message, that you care about learning about Judaism and its rituals.

Another interesting take:

http://rabbibarry.wordpress.com/2007/04/01/the-passover-and-the-last-supper/

Anonymous wrote:One last attempt to help Christians understand why Jews might not like the idea of a Christian seder:

http://www.episcopalcafe.com/daily/interfaith/say_no_to_christian_seders.php

I see nothing in this post that hasn't already been said here. It's a false equivalency to suggest that a Jew or Muslim "play-acting" the Eucharist is the same thing as a reenact of the Last Supper, which is at the very root of the Christian faith. But we have all registered your arguments and I am sorry you take such offense, especially when it is not intended.

I want to ask a serious question. What, if anything, can be done to move past the history of persecution? I'm not down-playing it by any means, but I don't understand how Christians ignoring or denying the fact that their religion has its roots in Judaism is helpful to that cause.

I also feel awkward/uncomfortable, but dare not protest.

One last attempt to help Christians understand why Jews might not like the idea of a Christian seder:

http://www.episcopalcafe.com/daily/interfaith/say_no_to_christian_seders.php

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a Christian, I find it a little disheartening that some of you shot down the one Jew who said she was "cool" with Seders as part of Christian ceremonies, but then expressed some concerns about conversion attempts. That doesn't excuse the fight-seeking behavior of some, but not all, Jews on this thread. Nevertheless, there was an opening... and then boom, we slammed the door shut.

An opening for what? I thought it was equally fight seeking, but if you find substance there by all means tell us what you think it is.

The first part. Where she said she was "cool" with Seders in churches except for this one niggling concern. You missed the first part? As a Christian who was the object of conversion attempts when I lived abroad, I get it.

I didn't miss the first part, and I challenged the second. I don't see how that is out of bounds on a discussion.

^^^ I mean, I get her concern.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a Christian, I find it a little disheartening that some of you shot down the one Jew who said she was "cool" with Seders as part of Christian ceremonies, but then expressed some concerns about conversion attempts. That doesn't excuse the fight-seeking behavior of some, but not all, Jews on this thread. Nevertheless, there was an opening... and then boom, we slammed the door shut.

An opening for what? I thought it was equally fight seeking, but if you find substance there by all means tell us what you think it is.

The first part. Where she said she was "cool" with Seders in churches except for this one niggling concern. You missed the first part? As a Christian who was the object of conversion attempts when I lived abroad, I get it.

Anonymous wrote:As a Christian, I find it a little disheartening that some of you shot down the one Jew who said she was "cool" with Seders as part of Christian ceremonies, but then expressed some concerns about conversion attempts. That doesn't excuse the fight-seeking behavior of some, but not all, Jews on this thread. Nevertheless, there was an opening... and then boom, we slammed the door shut.

An opening for what? I thought it was equally fight seeking, but if you find substance there by all means tell us what you think it is.

Anonymous wrote:

takoma wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You really called someone else's faith practices "icky"?

I said it seems icky to me. Can you not see the difference. Or are you really that hostile?

"It seems icky to me" is pretty much the same thing, and I think you can probably see that. It's a hostile statement, and we're trying to avoid that sort of thing in this forum.

May a thind person offer an opinion? In a non-hostile exchange of ideas and feelings, I would put "it seems icky to me" in the category of honest feed-back as opposed to "it's icky", which I'd call judgmental. It may be a subtle distinction, but I think it's the distinction that separates discussion from argument.

But your Jewish, right? I wonder if you'd feel differently if "it seems icky" was used to describe your faith?

Christian poster here. I think you are guilty of what many of the previous Jewish posters were engaging in on here. OP did not say that Christianity was icky. She said that she found this one thing - the recreation of the last supper and calling it a seder - icky. Whether you agree with her or not, and even if you don't like her word choice, you cannot extrapolate that she was insulting the entire faith. You doth protest too much, I think.

As a Christian, I find it a little disheartening that some of you shot down the one Jew who said she was "cool" with Seders as part of Christian ceremonies, but then expressed some concerns about conversion attempts. That doesn't excuse the fight-seeking behavior of some, but not all, Jews on this thread. Nevertheless, there was an opening... and then boom, we slammed the door shut.

takoma wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You really called someone else's faith practices "icky"?

I said it seems icky to me. Can you not see the difference. Or are you really that hostile?

"It seems icky to me" is pretty much the same thing, and I think you can probably see that. It's a hostile statement, and we're trying to avoid that sort of thing in this forum.

May a thind person offer an opinion? In a non-hostile exchange of ideas and feelings, I would put "it seems icky to me" in the category of honest feed-back as opposed to "it's icky", which I'd call judgmental. It may be a subtle distinction, but I think it's the distinction that separates discussion from argument.

But your Jewish, right? I wonder if you'd feel differently if "it seems icky" was used to describe your faith?

takoma wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You really called someone else's faith practices "icky"?

I said it seems icky to me. Can you not see the difference. Or are you really that hostile?

"It seems icky to me" is pretty much the same thing, and I think you can probably see that. It's a hostile statement, and we're trying to avoid that sort of thing in this forum.

May a thind person offer an opinion? In a non-hostile exchange of ideas and feelings, I would put "it seems icky to me" in the category of honest feed-back as opposed to "it's icky", which I'd call judgmental. It may be a subtle distinction, but I think it's the distinction that separates discussion from argument.

I agree. I was far more taken aback by the insistence on misconstruing intent and meaning on the part of posters other than OP than I was by OP's word choices.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You really called someone else's faith practices "icky"?

I said it seems icky to me. Can you not see the difference. Or are you really that hostile?

"It seems icky to me" is pretty much the same thing, and I think you can probably see that. It's a hostile statement, and we're trying to avoid that sort of thing in this forum.

May a thind person offer an opinion? In a non-hostile exchange of ideas and feelings, I would put "it seems icky to me" in the category of honest feed-back as opposed to "it's icky", which I'd call judgmental. It may be a subtle distinction, but I think it's the distinction that separates discussion from argument.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a Christian (I guess, I'm more Unitarian, but what ever) I find the idea of a Seder being run at a church to be somewhat disrespectful. A Seder is a jewish tradition and unless it is an innerfaith (i.e. attended by both jewish and christian people with the purpose being to teach the christians about the seder) it seems like the church is trying to "look" multi-cultural while making another religious tradition into something of their own. I don't know - UUs are very big on learning about other traditions but we have rules about how to do it respectfully - one of those is having someone of the faith there and telling us how to do it. I can see why some jewish people would find it uncomfortable.

Plus, you just think Christian churches are out there scheming everyday about how to offend other religions? Get a life. Maybe get to know an actual Christian before making uninformed and inflammatory statements.

News flash: this is EXACTLY what prostelytizing feels like to people who are on the receiving end. It's a plain fact that some churches ARE out there everyday talking to people of other religions and trying to get them to become Christians. It is a tenet of the faith for many. Maybe not you, but if you deny that this is a part of Christianity, you don't know much about your own religion. Anyway, to Jews and others who aren't interested, it is very often offensive.

Well then you are too easily offended. Just say thank you but I am very happy in my faith and move on. I am a Catholic and I have never in my life proselytized or been asked to by mu clergy. And I fail to see what holding a reenactment of the last supper for the benefit of a particular congregation only has to do with proselytizing anyway.

*laugh* Thanks for the tip, but trust me, American Jews (at least) are experienced at fielding attempted conversion attempts.

Not that you care about me, but FYI, I agree that it's not necessarily offensive. Some people aren't offensive at all. (IME, the little old ladies are particularly skilled, the teenagers, particularly unskilled.)

As you well know, this is not a tenet for Catholics so I'm not talking about you. Identify as a Catholic and you won't elicit this in others. Identify as a Christian and know that you are associating yourself with elements that can cross lines--some which consider it their responsibility to cross lines.

This post had nothing to do with passover. I just thought it was an interesting blind spot that you weren't aware how it feels to be preached at.

How do you know I am not aware? I have been waylayed by Mormons, Evangelicals, Scientologists, and others. Jews aren't unique in being proselytized to.

Duh. I didn't think you were aware because of the tone of the bolded part above--rude and dismissive with no sign that you understand or care WHY one might think a church-run Seder could be disrespectful.

So did ypu also forget to read the posts that explained how the "church-run seder" is not an attempt to convert Jews?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Christians have a long, long history of "adopting" other religious and cultural traditions and branding it "christian".

Then they'll always use the argument of "well you don't own such and such" and we are not doing anything wrong, and your just being too sensitive.

If you study history and the evangelism of christianity worldwide this is not new, so frankly I'm surprised that others are surprised by this.

It's a Judeo-Christian tradition because our religion was founded by a Jew. The traditions belonged to the founders of the religion, Christians didn't adopt them, they've been passed down. Again, this is ridiculous on the part of any Jew who thinks they have a right to prevent people of other traditions from learning about their own history. Why do you care anyway? Can't you find something else to worry about? Or do you just feel the need to gratuitously Christian bash?

Exactly.