Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So a first-year teacher makes as much as the county's median income, and they feel underpaid?

So a first-year doctor makes as much as the county's median income, and they feel underpaid?
So a first-year lawyer makes as much as the county's median income, and they feel underpaid?
So a first-year engineer makes as much as the county's median income, and they feel underpaid?

My first year out of college, with a bachelor's degree in environmental science, I made more than the county's median income (adjusted for inflation),

Teaching ES isn't precisely comparable to performing heart surgery. Med school and residency take over a decade or more.

I've known a few remarkable teachers, but most seem to have degrees in psychology from Towson State. No offense but that is hardly comparable.

What's your obsession with Towson? You get rejected from there or something? Absolutely sounds like it. Stop disparaging other people's educations while hiding behind a keyboard. You have the mentality of a thirteen year old. Gross to see on a grown adult.

DP, but I imagine “psychology degree from Towson” is just a metaphor for any degree with relatively limited earning potential from an unimpressive school. There are a few people in this thread that seem to be making willfully misleading comparisons between professions and degrees.

People are comparing because there seem to be posters on this thread who don't understand the concept of contracts or how they work. There are people in this thread who cannot handle teachers "only" work 180 days of the year, while failing to acknowledge that many other, high paying professions also do not work as much as most people, but no one seems to have a problem with those jobs. That is the entire point. It's not hard to understand, but DCUM people seem to be absolutely incapable of rational thought.

Everyone understands how contracts work.

Nobody has a problem with teachers being contracted for fewer than the 250 days (minus ten days of leave) that is more common in the full time workforce. The only reason care at all how many days teachers work is when discussions come up about comparing salaries. Shockingly, nobody cares about how many days oil rig workers work, because they aren't on these boards complaining about their pay. You know this, but are being willfully obtuse.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So a first-year teacher makes as much as the county's median income, and they feel underpaid?

So a first-year doctor makes as much as the county's median income, and they feel underpaid?
So a first-year lawyer makes as much as the county's median income, and they feel underpaid?
So a first-year engineer makes as much as the county's median income, and they feel underpaid?

My first year out of college, with a bachelor's degree in environmental science, I made more than the county's median income (adjusted for inflation),

Teaching ES isn't precisely comparable to performing heart surgery. Med school and residency take over a decade or more.

I've known a few remarkable teachers, but most seem to have degrees in psychology from Towson State. No offense but that is hardly comparable.

What's your obsession with Towson? You get rejected from there or something? Absolutely sounds like it. Stop disparaging other people's educations while hiding behind a keyboard. You have the mentality of a thirteen year old. Gross to see on a grown adult.

DP, but I imagine “psychology degree from Towson” is just a metaphor for any degree with relatively limited earning potential from an unimpressive school. There are a few people in this thread that seem to be making willfully misleading comparisons between professions and degrees.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So a first-year teacher makes as much as the county's median income, and they feel underpaid?

So a first-year doctor makes as much as the county's median income, and they feel underpaid?
So a first-year lawyer makes as much as the county's median income, and they feel underpaid?
So a first-year engineer makes as much as the county's median income, and they feel underpaid?

My first year out of college, with a bachelor's degree in environmental science, I made more than the county's median income (adjusted for inflation),

Teaching ES isn't precisely comparable to performing heart surgery. Med school and residency take over a decade or more.

I've known a few remarkable teachers, but most seem to have degrees in psychology from Towson State. No offense but that is hardly comparable.

What's your obsession with Towson? You get rejected from there or something? Absolutely sounds like it. Stop disparaging other people's educations while hiding behind a keyboard. You have the mentality of a thirteen year old. Gross to see on a grown adult.

DP, but I imagine “psychology degree from Towson” is just a metaphor for any degree with relatively limited earning potential from an unimpressive school. There are a few people in this thread that seem to be making willfully misleading comparisons between professions and degrees.

People are comparing because there seem to be posters on this thread who don't understand the concept of contracts or how they work. There are people in this thread who cannot handle teachers "only" work 180 days of the year, while failing to acknowledge that many other, high paying professions also do not work as much as most people, but no one seems to have a problem with those jobs. That is the entire point. It's not hard to understand, but DCUM people seem to be absolutely incapable of rational thought.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t, in principle, have a problem with paying teachers more. I just think it's counterproductive to do large, across-the-board raises when older teachers already make well above the median income. Heck, they make more than the median household income on their own!

Pay is a serious issue for starting teachers, who in many ways have even harder jobs as they adapt lesson plans and materials for themselves. They should get substantial pay raises. Similarly, some areas, like special education, should be on higher salary schedules due to the increased challenges with recruiting and retaining them in the field.

The real problem across-the-board is teacher workload. The MCPS salary agreement mostly helps veteran teachers, many of whom are nearing retirement. Not only will it do little to help the long-term challenge of attracting teachers, it could make it harder to fix the real problem. More money on higher salaries means there's less money to spend on more teachers.

Don't the vast majority of teachers agree that pay isn't the main problem? So why is MCPS digging itself into a bigger hole? And why are the younger teachers letting MCEA throw them under the bus to help the old teachers?

Throughout these posts, I see many people presenting that the fact that MCPS teachers make more than the median income in Montgomery County as the central argument that MCPS teachers should be happy to get what they get. What is the median household income in Montgomery County for someone with a masters degree or a doctorate degree and how does that compare to that of an MCPS teacher with a masters or doctorate degree? I couldn't find that data specific to our county, but the Economic Policy Institute has tracked this data on a national level and the difference between the earnings of teachers as compared to other professionals with the same level of education has increased over time. In 2021, Teachers earned 23.5% less than comparable college graduates.

Here is the article:
https://www.epi.org/publication/teacher-pay-penalty-2022/
And here is a summary of the article: "Simply put, teachers are paid less (in weekly wages and total compensation) than their nonteacher college-educated counterparts, and the situation has worsened considerably over time."


The fact of the matter is that many schools have teaching & paraprofessional vacancies that have not been filled. If the job was so cushy and well-compensated as some of you here suggest, there would not be so many vacancies. Many teachers have left or are planning to leave for jobs that are not as emotionally taxing on them or their families. For some it is worth it move into another less stressful job (even if that means a paycut).

Pay isn’t everything. A lot of people choose professions based on work/life balance. Given that it is impractical to expect the very large salary increases that would be necessary to offset the poor work/life balance of entry-level teachers, it is critical to address those other underlying issues with how schools structure those jobs.

You keep suggesting the pay is low, but it really isn’t when you dig into the data. The study you cited put the compensation gap at 14%. Once you further adjust for the area of education (e.g., comparing to social science degree holders) and public sector employees (and potentially the 10-month schedule, depending on the study), the gap will further shrink, if not invert.

That's not to say there aren't problems that need to be addressed, but increasing the salary of a 50-year-old with a Master's/Doctorate in Education from ~$110k by another $6k next year isn't going to do anything to fix the real problems.

Ya, I don't see the problem here. People are making higher than the county's median income starting out with 0 xp for a job where you work 180 days minus generous personal leave.

Generous personal leave? 5 days a year is sooo generous. Still staying fixated on the 180 day thing I see. Pathetic.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a 2nd career educator, I must ask those debating on this forum to please understand our core issues are really not about pay. Our dear leaders at MCPS feel this is the easiest way to recruit and retain teachers is to throw a few grand at us. It's actually quite insulting in my personal opinion. Of course, I cannot speak for all, but MOST of us are fine with the pay when we onboard (it's not exactly a surprise since it's publically posted). What we DO have a problem with are the working conditions. We had no idea what it would be like, especially after COVID. The hours to get things prepared, while taking away contracted planning time is pretty serious. It causes extreme burnout and apathy when you are constantly worked to the bone. It's a very high-stress environment day in and day out. It's going to take a lot more than pay to retain teachers. I can absolutely tell you as a working professional, I definitely harbored some resentment towards educators with 15-20+ years plus. They made so much more money than me, but I was doing probably 10x the work to get where they already are. It's counterintuitive for each new educator to have to reinvent the wheel for every class they teach when the person before them had to do the same thing...so in and so forth. The curriculum they provide is not very good quality because they write it in house with educators who have little to no experience in curriculum writing. (I know because I was one of them). They should just purchase a standard-aligned, well-vetted, engaging curriculum that is universal across the district. Right now, it's a terrible system that is designed to break people. And I am saying this as someone with a STEM degree who worked for a very highly regarded research institute. I know my subject matter very very well. But the workload is more than I have ever experienced in my entire life (even during grant season). They really need to support early career educators much more than they do now (which is barely).

Then the topics that should be elevated the loudest are increased Counselors and Counselors pay, increased Para support and increase in substitute pay. Also, standardized of some class content and new teacher training and support. All of those things are part of what MCEA call for and even the BOE but it’s not what is the loudest topic. And it exactly why the County Council folks called out MCPS and MCEA.

Everyone needs to figure out what the real priorities are in speak on that.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t, in principle, have a problem with paying teachers more. I just think it's counterproductive to do large, across-the-board raises when older teachers already make well above the median income. Heck, they make more than the median household income on their own!

Pay is a serious issue for starting teachers, who in many ways have even harder jobs as they adapt lesson plans and materials for themselves. They should get substantial pay raises. Similarly, some areas, like special education, should be on higher salary schedules due to the increased challenges with recruiting and retaining them in the field.

The real problem across-the-board is teacher workload. The MCPS salary agreement mostly helps veteran teachers, many of whom are nearing retirement. Not only will it do little to help the long-term challenge of attracting teachers, it could make it harder to fix the real problem. More money on higher salaries means there's less money to spend on more teachers.

Don't the vast majority of teachers agree that pay isn't the main problem? So why is MCPS digging itself into a bigger hole? And why are the younger teachers letting MCEA throw them under the bus to help the old teachers?

Throughout these posts, I see many people presenting that the fact that MCPS teachers make more than the median income in Montgomery County as the central argument that MCPS teachers should be happy to get what they get. What is the median household income in Montgomery County for someone with a masters degree or a doctorate degree and how does that compare to that of an MCPS teacher with a masters or doctorate degree? I couldn't find that data specific to our county, but the Economic Policy Institute has tracked this data on a national level and the difference between the earnings of teachers as compared to other professionals with the same level of education has increased over time. In 2021, Teachers earned 23.5% less than comparable college graduates.

Here is the article:
https://www.epi.org/publication/teacher-pay-penalty-2022/
And here is a summary of the article: "Simply put, teachers are paid less (in weekly wages and total compensation) than their nonteacher college-educated counterparts, and the situation has worsened considerably over time."


The fact of the matter is that many schools have teaching & paraprofessional vacancies that have not been filled. If the job was so cushy and well-compensated as some of you here suggest, there would not be so many vacancies. Many teachers have left or are planning to leave for jobs that are not as emotionally taxing on them or their families. For some it is worth it move into another less stressful job (even if that means a paycut).

Pay isn’t everything. A lot of people choose professions based on work/life balance. Given that it is impractical to expect the very large salary increases that would be necessary to offset the poor work/life balance of entry-level teachers, it is critical to address those other underlying issues with how schools structure those jobs.

You keep suggesting the pay is low, but it really isn’t when you dig into the data. The study you cited put the compensation gap at 14%. Once you further adjust for the area of education (e.g., comparing to social science degree holders) and public sector employees (and potentially the 10-month schedule, depending on the study), the gap will further shrink, if not invert.

That's not to say there aren't problems that need to be addressed, but increasing the salary of a 50-year-old with a Master's/Doctorate in Education from ~$110k by another $6k next year isn't going to do anything to fix the real problems.

Ya, I don't see the problem here. People are making higher than the county's median income starting out with 0 xp for a job where you work 180 days minus generous personal leave.

Generous personal leave? 5 days a year is sooo generous. Still staying fixated on the 180 day thing I see. Pathetic.

That 180 day thing has been debunked over and over, too. Go figure; haters gonna hate.

Teachers have 195 work days (193 scheduled duty days and another 2 days for unscheduled mandatory training). And they're not hourly employees getting overtime for all the evenings and weekends spent grading and planning.

Anonymous wrote:As a 2nd career educator, I must ask those debating on this forum to please understand our core issues are really not about pay. Our dear leaders at MCPS feel this is the easiest way to recruit and retain teachers is to throw a few grand at us. It's actually quite insulting in my personal opinion. Of course, I cannot speak for all, but MOST of us are fine with the pay when we onboard (it's not exactly a surprise since it's publically posted). What we DO have a problem with are the working conditions. We had no idea what it would be like, especially after COVID. The hours to get things prepared, while taking away contracted planning time is pretty serious. It causes extreme burnout and apathy when you are constantly worked to the bone. It's a very high-stress environment day in and day out. It's going to take a lot more than pay to retain teachers. I can absolutely tell you as a working professional, I definitely harbored some resentment towards educators with 15-20+ years plus. They made so much more money than me, but I was doing probably 10x the work to get where they already are. It's counterintuitive for each new educator to have to reinvent the wheel for every class they teach when the person before them had to do the same thing...so in and so forth. The curriculum they provide is not very good quality because they write it in house with educators who have little to no experience in curriculum writing. (I know because I was one of them). They should just purchase a standard-aligned, well-vetted, engaging curriculum that is universal across the district. Right now, it's a terrible system that is designed to break people. And I am saying this as someone with a STEM degree who worked for a very highly regarded research institute. I know my subject matter very very well. But the workload is more than I have ever experienced in my entire life (even during grant season). They really need to support early career educators much more than they do now (which is barely).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t, in principle, have a problem with paying teachers more. I just think it's counterproductive to do large, across-the-board raises when older teachers already make well above the median income. Heck, they make more than the median household income on their own!

Pay is a serious issue for starting teachers, who in many ways have even harder jobs as they adapt lesson plans and materials for themselves. They should get substantial pay raises. Similarly, some areas, like special education, should be on higher salary schedules due to the increased challenges with recruiting and retaining them in the field.

The real problem across-the-board is teacher workload. The MCPS salary agreement mostly helps veteran teachers, many of whom are nearing retirement. Not only will it do little to help the long-term challenge of attracting teachers, it could make it harder to fix the real problem. More money on higher salaries means there's less money to spend on more teachers.

Don't the vast majority of teachers agree that pay isn't the main problem? So why is MCPS digging itself into a bigger hole? And why are the younger teachers letting MCEA throw them under the bus to help the old teachers?

Throughout these posts, I see many people presenting that the fact that MCPS teachers make more than the median income in Montgomery County as the central argument that MCPS teachers should be happy to get what they get. What is the median household income in Montgomery County for someone with a masters degree or a doctorate degree and how does that compare to that of an MCPS teacher with a masters or doctorate degree? I couldn't find that data specific to our county, but the Economic Policy Institute has tracked this data on a national level and the difference between the earnings of teachers as compared to other professionals with the same level of education has increased over time. In 2021, Teachers earned 23.5% less than comparable college graduates.

Here is the article:
https://www.epi.org/publication/teacher-pay-penalty-2022/
And here is a summary of the article: "Simply put, teachers are paid less (in weekly wages and total compensation) than their nonteacher college-educated counterparts, and the situation has worsened considerably over time."


The fact of the matter is that many schools have teaching & paraprofessional vacancies that have not been filled. If the job was so cushy and well-compensated as some of you here suggest, there would not be so many vacancies. Many teachers have left or are planning to leave for jobs that are not as emotionally taxing on them or their families. For some it is worth it move into another less stressful job (even if that means a paycut).

Pay isn’t everything. A lot of people choose professions based on work/life balance. Given that it is impractical to expect the very large salary increases that would be necessary to offset the poor work/life balance of entry-level teachers, it is critical to address those other underlying issues with how schools structure those jobs.

You keep suggesting the pay is low, but it really isn’t when you dig into the data. The study you cited put the compensation gap at 14%. Once you further adjust for the area of education (e.g., comparing to social science degree holders) and public sector employees (and potentially the 10-month schedule, depending on the study), the gap will further shrink, if not invert.

That's not to say there aren't problems that need to be addressed, but increasing the salary of a 50-year-old with a Master's/Doctorate in Education from ~$110k by another $6k next year isn't going to do anything to fix the real problems.

Ya, I don't see the problem here. People are making higher than the county's median income starting out with 0 xp for a job where you work 180 days minus generous personal leave.

Generous personal leave? 5 days a year is sooo generous. Still staying fixated on the 180 day thing I see. Pathetic.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So a first-year teacher makes as much as the county's median income, and they feel underpaid?

So a first-year doctor makes as much as the county's median income, and they feel underpaid?
So a first-year lawyer makes as much as the county's median income, and they feel underpaid?
So a first-year engineer makes as much as the county's median income, and they feel underpaid?

My first year out of college, with a bachelor's degree in environmental science, I made more than the county's median income (adjusted for inflation),

Teaching ES isn't precisely comparable to performing heart surgery. Med school and residency take over a decade or more.

I've known a few remarkable teachers, but most seem to have degrees in psychology from Towson State. No offense but that is hardly comparable.

What's your obsession with Towson? You get rejected from there or something? Absolutely sounds like it. Stop disparaging other people's educations while hiding behind a keyboard. You have the mentality of a thirteen year old. Gross to see on a grown adult.

DP, but I imagine “psychology degree from Towson” is just a metaphor for any degree with relatively limited earning potential from an unimpressive school. There are a few people in this thread that seem to be making willfully misleading comparisons between professions and degrees.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So a first-year teacher makes as much as the county's median income, and they feel underpaid?

So a first-year doctor makes as much as the county's median income, and they feel underpaid?
So a first-year lawyer makes as much as the county's median income, and they feel underpaid?
So a first-year engineer makes as much as the county's median income, and they feel underpaid?

My first year out of college, with a bachelor's degree in environmental science, I made more than the county's median income (adjusted for inflation),

Teaching ES isn't precisely comparable to performing heart surgery. Med school and residency take over a decade or more.

I've known a few remarkable teachers, but most seem to have degrees in psychology from Towson State. No offense but that is hardly comparable.

What's your obsession with Towson? You get rejected from there or something? Absolutely sounds like it. Stop disparaging other people's educations while hiding behind a keyboard. You have the mentality of a thirteen year old. Gross to see on a grown adult.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t, in principle, have a problem with paying teachers more. I just think it's counterproductive to do large, across-the-board raises when older teachers already make well above the median income. Heck, they make more than the median household income on their own!

Pay is a serious issue for starting teachers, who in many ways have even harder jobs as they adapt lesson plans and materials for themselves. They should get substantial pay raises. Similarly, some areas, like special education, should be on higher salary schedules due to the increased challenges with recruiting and retaining them in the field.

The real problem across-the-board is teacher workload. The MCPS salary agreement mostly helps veteran teachers, many of whom are nearing retirement. Not only will it do little to help the long-term challenge of attracting teachers, it could make it harder to fix the real problem. More money on higher salaries means there's less money to spend on more teachers.

Don't the vast majority of teachers agree that pay isn't the main problem? So why is MCPS digging itself into a bigger hole? And why are the younger teachers letting MCEA throw them under the bus to help the old teachers?

Throughout these posts, I see many people presenting that the fact that MCPS teachers make more than the median income in Montgomery County as the central argument that MCPS teachers should be happy to get what they get. What is the median household income in Montgomery County for someone with a masters degree or a doctorate degree and how does that compare to that of an MCPS teacher with a masters or doctorate degree? I couldn't find that data specific to our county, but the Economic Policy Institute has tracked this data on a national level and the difference between the earnings of teachers as compared to other professionals with the same level of education has increased over time. In 2021, Teachers earned 23.5% less than comparable college graduates.

Here is the article:
https://www.epi.org/publication/teacher-pay-penalty-2022/
And here is a summary of the article: "Simply put, teachers are paid less (in weekly wages and total compensation) than their nonteacher college-educated counterparts, and the situation has worsened considerably over time."


The fact of the matter is that many schools have teaching & paraprofessional vacancies that have not been filled. If the job was so cushy and well-compensated as some of you here suggest, there would not be so many vacancies. Many teachers have left or are planning to leave for jobs that are not as emotionally taxing on them or their families. For some it is worth it move into another less stressful job (even if that means a paycut).

Pay isn’t everything. A lot of people choose professions based on work/life balance. Given that it is impractical to expect the very large salary increases that would be necessary to offset the poor work/life balance of entry-level teachers, it is critical to address those other underlying issues with how schools structure those jobs.

You keep suggesting the pay is low, but it really isn’t when you dig into the data. The study you cited put the compensation gap at 14%. Once you further adjust for the area of education (e.g., comparing to social science degree holders) and public sector employees (and potentially the 10-month schedule, depending on the study), the gap will further shrink, if not invert.

That's not to say there aren't problems that need to be addressed, but increasing the salary of a 50-year-old with a Master's/Doctorate in Education from ~$110k by another $6k next year isn't going to do anything to fix the real problems.

Ya, I don't see the problem here. People are making higher than the county's median income starting out with 0 xp for a job where you work 180 days minus generous personal leave.