I wonder what the difference would be if first year grades weren't counted. I do think in the first year, weak academic preparation can be particularly harmful. A lot of kids take advantage of tutoring, review sessions, office hours, etc., and catch up. Sonia Sotomayer has written of her struggles going from Cardinal Hayes HS in the Bronx to Princeton. She talks about realizing how far behind she was and going to see a professor who worked with her to improve her writing.

MIT doesn't count first semester grades for anyone. It's all pass/fail. If you fail, you retake. Some ill-prepared kids barely scrape through, but almost all go on to do just fine after that.

As for salaries post-graduation....things like geographic distribution matter. Starting salaries in big cities are high, but it's hard to rent a place if you don't have parents who can act as guarantors. So maybe kids from non-affluent backgrounds graduating start out in a place with lower COL where you don't need someone to guarantee your rent? Or to live at home so they can save up a security deposit? I don't know...Or maybe more first gen take positions with Teach for America or VISTA. Or maybe a higher percentage have been in programs like ROTC which require them to work for less money. https://admission.princeton.edu/community/rotc I think there are a lot of things that affect starting salaries.

Anonymous wrote:I didn’t go to Princeton, but I was a first gen student and Pell grant recipient at a private college in the mid 00s. It was hard. One huge difference in my experience vs my wealthier peers was internships. I had to work during college, often 2-3 jobs, so I couldn’t take unpaid internships because I needed money for tuition, room and board, food, etc. The lack of experience made it much more difficult to get a job, especially during a recession.

I had a similar experience in the early 1990s.

There was also a lot of distractions from home related to my family being poor. Empty fridge. Eviction notices. My mom needed a biopsy, but couldn’t take off from work. I swear these things always seemed to happen around midterms. I got decent enough grades (Honor Roll), but I probably would have had straight As in all but math.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There was a senior survey at Princeton which had a breakdown for GPA across income levels, first-gen status, etc: https://projects.dailyprincetonian.com/senior-survey-2022/academics.html

50% of first-gen students had a 3.6 GPA or higher, compared to 69% of non-first gen students.

The lowest income students by family household (below 40K) at Princeton had an average GPA of a 3.5, while the highest income students had a 3.72.

32% of the lowest income students reported cheating on an assignment or exam, compared to 21% of students overall.

Only 49% of students on financial aid reported having a job lined up for graduation, compared to 62% of those not on FA. Expected income for those on FA was 84K one year after graduating, compared to 124K for those not on FA. Students on all household income levels below 125K reported expected earnings under 84K, while all those over that level reported at least 115K.

These are considerable gaps. If higher ed is supposed to be the great equalizer, why are Princeton grads seeing such discrepancies corresponding with their background?

US schools have become a little club for the rich and the connected, with a few token minorities to cover their tracks.

It's not an inspiring scene.

Have become?!? 100 years ago, universities were only for white men from well-to-do.

I was a first gen student poor student from a single mother at a rich kids school (Duke) who did well. I attended on athletic scholarship and social life because of my socio-economic status and poverty was non-existent. I think I did well academically because I had a good size chip on my shoulder, along with an honors program professor who didn't believe in safe spaces and pushed the heck out of me. Later, Law Review editor, top of the class at a T10 law school. Law school was not much work compared to my undergrad experience. My law school was competitive and far from friendly which worked to my advantage as I had no interest in any social aspect of law school. Treated it like a job - no study groups - no social needs - no need to have friends - just did the basic work. I do agree there is a preparation and cultural factor to being a first gen in poverty student but again I was fortunate to have a professor in undergrad encouraging me to embrace ego damage in learning. In fact, he didn't think you could learn without some discomfort and pressure. I gave him no worries as my athletic accomplishments in the NCAA were due to mental toughness as opposed to high level talent, a great piece of self discovery. He let me in his honors program after watching one of my competitions. And to be fair, my coach didn't just give lip service to academics and pushed me too, viewing anything less than magna cum laude as not acceptable, at least for me. We had a few scholarship guys with very limited academic skills but thankfully I was not one of them. A good reminder not to choose a school for prestige if the fit is not there. The focus on academics by my coach was not common because on scholarship you really must put the sport first. Between the athletic scholarship and two years of luck in futures trading (yes, sounds insane) I had no student loan debt or debt of any kind until I took on a mortgage. I thought it took this kind of aversion to debt and extraordinary efforts to break generational disadvantage. Both my kids went to top schools (Princeton and Duke) and I spoiled them - they had no worries - everything paid for including cars, vacations, clothes and so on and no debt anywhere. They appreciate it now, but the real beneficiary was my late mother, who carried some considerable guilt over a rough upbringing for us. Despite it all, she did a good job, and her grandchildren reaped the benefit.

I am the naive Pell grant PP and I thank everyone who provided insight!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was one of the poors at my prestigious university. I lived at home and spent 3.5 hours per day in transit, and had 2 part time jobs. I had a decent GPA but could have done better if l didn’t have to commute and work. Don’t just assume those lower GPAs signal not having a high level of talent, preparation or work ethic.

How come the school or Pell grants did not cover your room and board?

DP. The maximum pell grant for the 2023-2024 school year is only $7,395/year. And that is for kids from the absolute neediest families; like, families with an HHI of $39k, for example. I assume the amount was much lower than $7,395 when the poster you’re replying to was in undergrad.

Forgive my naïveté, I also thought the schools give FA to Pell eligible students

Pell Grant PP here. Let’s assume the recipient attends a public university or a private that doesn’t meet full need. In addition to the $7,395/year, someone who is eligible for a full pell grant will also get federal work study, which at many schools tags a student for priority access to the “better” on-campus jobs, like being a library attendant. Federal work study can be anywhere from $2,000 to $2,500/year for up to 20 hours/ week. That isn’t nearly as much money as the student would make working at a local restaurant in the college town, but it offers more flexible scheduling & makes it easier to do schoolwork while working. In addition to the FWS & pell grant, a student who has financial need would have portions of their federal student loans subsidized (meaning, no interest accrues on those portions while the student is enrolled in school). The total limit that any student regardless of need can take out is $27k spread over all 4 years, not per year. The freshman year limit is $5500 in loans.

So, a student who is eligible for the full pell grant could get the total of the federal loan + FWS + pell grant secured. That totals to about $15k for, say, freshman year. That student is entitled to that amount as long as they don’t drop below a certain level of enrollment or fail a certain number of classes. They get that amount at minimum regardless of which school they attend, as long as it accepts federal aid. Very few don’t; Hillsdale, for example. That can also be in addition to merit scholarships, if they come directly from the college the student is attending. Working during the summers helps financially, too.

The catches? That $15-20k a year in funding is *all* the student has. There is no parental financial assistance or 529 account. They may not be able to commute to school. They can’t go live back with their parents, who likely are renters, after school. That student’s family is in no position to help them pay back loans post-college. They’re at a very high risk of not graduating. They’re also at risk of failing to keep their grants & merit scholarships. They may have to take fewer credits in order to make rent, which means they may only get a part-time pell grant, which is a lower amount. They have family whom they need to send money home to. Their parents can’t co-sign off-campus apartment rentals for them. All forms of federal financial aid have lifetime limits. You can’t afford to fail.

Hopefully this post gives some balanced insight.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was one of the poors at my prestigious university. I lived at home and spent 3.5 hours per day in transit, and had 2 part time jobs. I had a decent GPA but could have done better if l didn’t have to commute and work. Don’t just assume those lower GPAs signal not having a high level of talent, preparation or work ethic.

How come the school or Pell grants did not cover your room and board?

DP. The maximum pell grant for the 2023-2024 school year is only $7,395/year. And that is for kids from the absolute neediest families; like, families with an HHI of $39k, for example. I assume the amount was much lower than $7,395 when the poster you’re replying to was in undergrad.

Forgive my naïveté, I also thought the schools give FA to Pell eligible students

A pell-eligible student who gets into an elite private college is almost certain to get full grant financial aid. Additionally, if they’re in certain states like, say, Ca there are state grant financial aid systems if you go to a public university or cc. Ca has Cal Grant that can be stacked onto Pell Grant. NY state has the Excelsior Scholarship, which if I recall correctly provides free tuition for kids from families with a HHI under $120k, but you stay enrolled full-time. New Mexico has free college tuition for kids with above a 2.5 GPA in high school. FL has the Bright Futures scholarship, and GA has HOPE/Zell. If you can get into UVA or UMich instate, they give great financial aid to low-income students.

So there are opportunities for undergrad funding out there. But if you don’t live in one of those states, it can be VERY crappy. In New England, NJ, PA and IL, basically none of those programs I described above exist except the pell grant. I’m from PA, and the state higher education system is pretty messy & expensive. The community colleges are $5k+/year and are in sparsely populated areas, to start. Most pell-grant eligible students aren’t headed to elite schools.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Key point: these students are of lower caliber because they are beneficiaries of affirmative action/preferences. Why would anyone be surprised they don’t perform as well? The gap is likely even bigger than reported in that the FGLI kids may have less rigorous majors (think African American studies vs STEM)

No. The African American studies department at my elite university was mostly wealthy and UMC black students with college educated (oftentimes graduate-school educated) parents.

I mean, duh! Only a moron would think FGLI kids are going to enter hobby majors. Most of them keep their eyes on the prize by going for a pre-professional track, STEM, or business major.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was one of the poors at my prestigious university. I lived at home and spent 3.5 hours per day in transit, and had 2 part time jobs. I had a decent GPA but could have done better if l didn’t have to commute and work. Don’t just assume those lower GPAs signal not having a high level of talent, preparation or work ethic.

How come the school or Pell grants did not cover your room and board?

The idea that you think Pell grants are big enough to cover a significant fraction of the cost of room and board at a prestigious university suggests that you aren’t in the United States, and that you didn’t even read the cheat sheet for trolls. You need to retake the troll class.

NP Um what? I am US born, raised, and educated and was shocked by the numbers a PP posted. Those $s need to be updated for tuition inflation because they are useless

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was one of the poors at my prestigious university. I lived at home and spent 3.5 hours per day in transit, and had 2 part time jobs. I had a decent GPA but could have done better if l didn’t have to commute and work. Don’t just assume those lower GPAs signal not having a high level of talent, preparation or work ethic.

How come the school or Pell grants did not cover your room and board?

The idea that you think Pell grants are big enough to cover a significant fraction of the cost of room and board at a prestigious university suggests that you aren’t in the United States, and that you didn’t even read the cheat sheet for trolls. You need to retake the troll class.

I am foreign born and my kid is in middle school. This thread has many wonders for me, but I am not a troll.
I can easily see my son in the same position as many posters, even though I do have college education from another country

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was one of the poors at my prestigious university. I lived at home and spent 3.5 hours per day in transit, and had 2 part time jobs. I had a decent GPA but could have done better if l didn’t have to commute and work. Don’t just assume those lower GPAs signal not having a high level of talent, preparation or work ethic.

How come the school or Pell grants did not cover your room and board?

DP. The maximum pell grant for the 2023-2024 school year is only $7,395/year. And that is for kids from the absolute neediest families; like, families with an HHI of $39k, for example. I assume the amount was much lower than $7,395 when the poster you’re replying to was in undergrad.

Forgive my naïveté, I also thought the schools give FA to Pell eligible students

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There was a senior survey at Princeton which had a breakdown for GPA across income levels, first-gen status, etc: https://projects.dailyprincetonian.com/senior-survey-2022/academics.html

50% of first-gen students had a 3.6 GPA or higher, compared to 69% of non-first gen students.

The lowest income students by family household (below 40K) at Princeton had an average GPA of a 3.5, while the highest income students had a 3.72.

32% of the lowest income students reported cheating on an assignment or exam, compared to 21% of students overall.

Only 49% of students on financial aid reported having a job lined up for graduation, compared to 62% of those not on FA. Expected income for those on FA was 84K one year after graduating, compared to 124K for those not on FA. Students on all household income levels below 125K reported expected earnings under 84K, while all those over that level reported at least 115K.

These are considerable gaps. If higher ed is supposed to be the great equalizer, why are Princeton grads seeing such discrepancies corresponding with their background?

US schools have become a little club for the rich and the connected, with a few token minorities to cover their tracks.

It's not an inspiring scene.

Have become?!? 100 years ago, universities were only for white men from well-to-do.

US unis had much more SES diversity just a few decades ago.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There was a senior survey at Princeton which had a breakdown for GPA across income levels, first-gen status, etc: https://projects.dailyprincetonian.com/senior-survey-2022/academics.html

50% of first-gen students had a 3.6 GPA or higher, compared to 69% of non-first gen students.

The lowest income students by family household (below 40K) at Princeton had an average GPA of a 3.5, while the highest income students had a 3.72.

32% of the lowest income students reported cheating on an assignment or exam, compared to 21% of students overall.

Only 49% of students on financial aid reported having a job lined up for graduation, compared to 62% of those not on FA. Expected income for those on FA was 84K one year after graduating, compared to 124K for those not on FA. Students on all household income levels below 125K reported expected earnings under 84K, while all those over that level reported at least 115K.

These are considerable gaps. If higher ed is supposed to be the great equalizer, why are Princeton grads seeing such discrepancies corresponding with their background?

US schools have become a little club for the rich and the connected, with a few token minorities to cover their tracks.

It's not an inspiring scene.

Have become?!? 100 years ago, universities were only for white men from well-to-do.