Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel like there has to be a lot more going on there. (And no I'm not going to take the time to get past the paywall to find out what it is).

But the points about learning loss are important. And yet on the other other hand, why are we acknowledging learning loss but not helping students deal with it? There are schools at all levels are doing the same thing, just plowing through as though the kids had actually had good instruction. They should have had all those students take a remedial chemistry class over the summer or something.

No one actually cares about learning loss. It’s just a point to bludgeon “the other side.” Sadly I this as a parent of a kid with a lot of learning loss and it’s difficult to remediate and keep pace at school.

+1 In the DCUM world of haves and have not, this story is about inferior students being admitted to a university and then demanding special treatment. I predicted that the harm caused by pandemic decisions that disadvantaged high school students would be swept under the rug, with those who lost necessary educational experiences held to the same standards as if the pandemic had never happened, and sadly, I was correct. Pretending that this is only about test-optional admissions and blaming the students ignores the reality of learning loss and stunted social, emotional, and academic development.

- parent of A/B student with 1480 SAT score who high school graduated in 2020 who is now on academic probation at his university

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Way back in the 20th Century my husband took Professor Jones's class at Princeton. He remembers Jones fondly, but was astonished to learn that he is still teaching. DH also noted that even when Jones was in his prime, there was no way the class average on a midterm would have been 30%, as the NYT reports it was for Jones's class at NYU last spring. DH's guess is that 60-70% would have been more likely. Our two sons, both of whom have taken organic chemistry within the past five years (one is now a med student and the other is now applying to med school) opined that a professor whose students are averaging 30% on the second of two midterms is not a very good teacher. I tend to agree with them.

There's a huge flaw in your argument: you're assuming the quality of the student pool at Princeton and NYU is the same. No dog in this fight, but I know a couple of young people who were admitted to NYU in the past five years and let's just say that if the student pools are even remotely equivalent, then those admissions were clear aberrations.

Classic anecdotes I know two supposedly poor students who got into college. The whole system has gone downhill!

Girl, you are too much. Do you have any critical thinking skills?

Anonymous wrote:I feel like there has to be a lot more going on there. (And no I'm not going to take the time to get past the paywall to find out what it is).

But the points about learning loss are important. And yet on the other other hand, why are we acknowledging learning loss but not helping students deal with it? There are schools at all levels are doing the same thing, just plowing through as though the kids had actually had good instruction. They should have had all those students take a remedial chemistry class over the summer or something.

No one actually cares about learning loss. It’s just a point to bludgeon “the other side.” Sadly I this as a parent of a kid with a lot of learning loss and it’s difficult to remediate and keep pace at school.

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Anonymous wrote:Organic chemistry is hard? Who knew?

This was especially interesting in light of discussions over Covid learning loss:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/03/us/nyu-organic-chemistry-petition.html

“Students were misreading exam questions at an astonishing rate,” he wrote in a grievance to the university, protesting his termination. Grades fell even as he reduced the difficulty of his exams.

The problem was exacerbated by the pandemic, he said. “In the last two years, they fell off a cliff,” he wrote. “We now see single digit scores and even zeros.”

After several years of Covid learning loss, the students not only didn’t study, they didn’t seem to know how to study, Dr. Jones said.

I think the bolded portion is the hidden issue here. The brain processes information differently if you read it on a device vs in print, and it processes information on a computer screen differently from information on a phone. These students probably aren't accustomed to reading print.

Maybe if he formed the class information into a tik Tok video more students would watch and learn something. Did anyone think that kids that grew with the attention span of a gnat, having everything made easier for them, never having to work hard or REALLY put any effort in, had excuses made for them at every turn (can't read print? don't know how to study? lol), would be able to succeed in a hard class. They are waiting for someone to make it easier for them and they want to become doctors? Does anyone see the irony or how ridiculous this is?

Did u even read the article.. he did make them into you tube videos, he doesn’t even teach, he has you watch videos, read his book and do practice exams.

That was pretty much what our HSers did during the pandemic. Some did fine, others didn't. But at the college level, I would think most students who were "smart" enough to get into NYU could handle learning from watching the videos, read the book and do practice exams.

So I am just a (out of) state school grad but I don’t understand all these comments about kids expecting to be “spoon fed” and not knowing how to study if the material was not taught in class. What is the point of paying top dollar at NYU if the material is not properly taught in class? If reading the book is good enough or within YouTube for gods sake, let’s all go the cousera and stop paying ridiculous fees.

It doesn't matter if the class averages a 30%.....courses usually curve anyway to adjust.

These are just a bunch of whiny crybabies who are incapable of handling rigor an expectation from them that they answer questions accurately, precisely, and correctly with no second chances. In the petition letter, students complained that they were not given opportunities for extra credit? Are you friggin' kidding me? You don't get a second chance and extra credit if you mess up brain surgery in a patient, do you?

Whether or not Orgo is important for becoming a physician is irrelevant. Besides, no one knows if any pre-med students in the class might eventually one day be MD scientists who stick to more basic research or work for a pharmaceutical company in a role where they need to absolutely know organic chemistry.

This is all the result of grade inflation in high school and students being told they're smart and special since they've been in diapers. Newsflash: you precious little Suzies and Johnnies, on average, are C students who really aren't that smart and.are just average intelligence humans. They will be shocked to learn that when they get to university and have to take a real class that doesn't have grade inflation.

Organic chemistry isn't even that hard. If they can't even pass organic chemistry and are incapable of studying, they should be nowhere near med school.

Anonymous wrote:The professor was over 80 years old. I'm guessing they wanted an excuse to fire him.

Nope, better question is why did they hire an adjunct out of retirement instead of tenure track position. They were free to fire him at any time, by design.

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Anonymous wrote:One of the lines in the petition was that grades didn’t reflect effort and time put in. Welcome to the rest of your life, dummies!

Ha! Sorry snowflake, no standards based learning and multiple “retests” and “retakes” like our public high school.

I have no problem with retakes and retests in high school. The purpose is to have them learn the material, is it not?

So when your doctor gets your diagnosis wrong the first time, that’s ok? I mean, maybe he’ll get it the second or third time — it’s only important that they eventually got it right?

Most drs get diagnoses wrong if it’s more than a cold/flu/bacterial infection.

They are trained to treat the most probable cause, that’s not a diagnosis. They treat symptoms. They give you advice or meds and send you in your way. If you’re still sick they send you for more tests. If those come back clean they generally say, yea you’re fine. But you know you are not.

You push for more so they might get you more tests and send you to a specialist.

That’s how doctors work. They know a very narrow portion of medicine. It’s up to the patient to keep at it to get to the root cause.

If you don’t go to a top doctor you’re screwed.

Even people with infertility know, they need $$$ and the top clinic. Cancer … top clinics. Most fifties are useless past a cold or bacterial infection.

Tell me you don’t know about medicine without telling me you don’t know about medicine

The professor was over 80 years old. I'm guessing they wanted an excuse to fire him.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This kind of thing is increasingly prevalent, but most professors don’t talk about it openly. Relative teaches at a grad program at an Ivy. They have to explain what sigma means every year. Another student once told them that they objected to using Greek symbols in a stats class because the Greeks owned slaves.

That's a nice story.

I wish it was fiction!

Anonymous wrote:This kind of thing is increasingly prevalent, but most professors don’t talk about it openly. Relative teaches at a grad program at an Ivy. They have to explain what sigma means every year. Another student once told them that they objected to using Greek symbols in a stats class because the Greeks owned slaves.

That's a nice story.

This kind of thing is increasingly prevalent, but most professors don’t talk about it openly. Relative teaches at a grad program at an Ivy. They have to explain what sigma means every year. Another student once told them that they objected to using Greek symbols in a stats class because the Greeks owned slaves.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Way back in the 20th Century my husband took Professor Jones's class at Princeton. He remembers Jones fondly, but was astonished to learn that he is still teaching. DH also noted that even when Jones was in his prime, there was no way the class average on a midterm would have been 30%, as the NYT reports it was for Jones's class at NYU last spring. DH's guess is that 60-70% would have been more likely. Our two sons, both of whom have taken organic chemistry within the past five years (one is now a med student and the other is now applying to med school) opined that a professor whose students are averaging 30% on the second of two midterms is not a very good teacher. I tend to agree with them.

There's a huge flaw in your argument: you're assuming the quality of the student pool at Princeton and NYU is the same. No dog in this fight, but I know a couple of young people who were admitted to NYU in the past five years and let's just say that if the student pools are even remotely equivalent, then those admissions were clear aberrations.

+1. At least the bottom half of NYU are midwits. Outside of perhaps a few sportball rosters, the entirely of Princeton's student body runs circles around NYU dullards.

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Anonymous wrote:Orgo has ALWAYS been a weed out class--from medical school and from chemistry as a major. When I took it, the average was a C.
I don't know the specifics of this guy but it's hardly new for many people to fail organic chemistry.

A “C” is, by definition, average.

would you go to just an "average" doctor?

The "C"s from organic chemistry don't get into med school, so...

But those NYU students wanted the professor get fired so that they can get a better grade to go to medical school, right?

Probably so. It's the new entitlement that average students should be admitted to med school. That's why the Bell curve works. That's why there should be a lot of "C"s given, if necessary.

Eh. Organic (and physics for that matter) is a stupid requirement for pre med students in this day and age. No practicing doctor is off mixing their own chemicals and developing drugs anymore—that’s big pharma’s domain.

The point is if they cannot get a good grade in organic chemistry, they will really struggle in medical school because the difficulty/amount of material of organic chemistry and physics mimic courses in medical school. Additionally, doctors need to be at a certain intelligent level, although they do not need to be super smart. Those NYU kids are not at that level.

Oh, bullsh*t. Make all the foreign “trained” doctors take this organic chemistry class and see if any of them pass. They’d all fail it. American medical schools and the medical industry is a cartel PURPOSELY weeding out QUALIFIED and CAPABLE American students to force wages down and justify an annual deluge of foreign “trained” physicians.

Many countries have organic chemistry as part of their medical degrees (even if they don’t require a bachelors degree prior to an MD). This is because organic chemistry is essential to understand biochemistry and metabolism, which is typically part of the curriculum in medical school.

If you think pre-med and medical school coursework in Third World countries is anywhere near as rigorous (and honest) as anything in American R1s I have a bridge to sell you.

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Anonymous wrote:One of the lines in the petition was that grades didn’t reflect effort and time put in. Welcome to the rest of your life, dummies!

Ha! Sorry snowflake, no standards based learning and multiple “retests” and “retakes” like our public high school.

I have no problem with retakes and retests in high school. The purpose is to have them learn the material, is it not?

So when your doctor gets your diagnosis wrong the first time, that’s ok? I mean, maybe he’ll get it the second or third time — it’s only important that they eventually got it right?

Most drs get diagnoses wrong if it’s more than a cold/flu/bacterial infection.

They are trained to treat the most probable cause, that’s not a diagnosis. They treat symptoms. They give you advice or meds and send you in your way. If you’re still sick they send you for more tests. If those come back clean they generally say, yea you’re fine. But you know you are not.

You push for more so they might get you more tests and send you to a specialist.

That’s how doctors work. They know a very narrow portion of medicine. It’s up to the patient to keep at it to get to the root cause.

If you don’t go to a top doctor you’re screwed.

Even people with infertility know, they need $$$ and the top clinic. Cancer … top clinics. Most fifties are useless past a cold or bacterial infection.

DP.. maybe but I think the point is that most people *don't want* a doctor who has to keep doing retakes. Wouldn't you want a doctor who can usually diagnose it correctly the first time?

Same for students and test taking.

I want one that learned the material .. I don’t care if it was this week or next week.

I can't tell which PP I'm agreeing with, but when you go to a top doctor, they're willing to admit your situation is unique and there's no way they know the answer already. But they ask you to repeat everything you know, and begin to research. The bad doctors, try to snow you like it's exam day.

a doctor asking you to repeat your symptoms and research your issue is not at all like a student who has to retake the exam a few times in order to pass it. It would be more like the student who studies the material, asks the prof. questions, reads the material, then again goes back to the professor with more questions, then takes the exam.

Nope, it’s the student who is use to asking for help. Not the one that just agrees to read the book and teach himself.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Way back in the 20th Century my husband took Professor Jones's class at Princeton. He remembers Jones fondly, but was astonished to learn that he is still teaching. DH also noted that even when Jones was in his prime, there was no way the class average on a midterm would have been 30%, as the NYT reports it was for Jones's class at NYU last spring. DH's guess is that 60-70% would have been more likely. Our two sons, both of whom have taken organic chemistry within the past five years (one is now a med student and the other is now applying to med school) opined that a professor whose students are averaging 30% on the second of two midterms is not a very good teacher. I tend to agree with them.

There's a huge flaw in your argument: you're assuming the quality of the student pool at Princeton and NYU is the same. No dog in this fight, but I know a couple of young people who were admitted to NYU in the past five years and let's just say that if the student pools are even remotely equivalent, then those admissions were clear aberrations.

It’s also flawed to say a 50 yo professor and an 85 yo professor who is design with new technology are equally effective