Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People who have the luxury of this choice - staying home or working full time - should do what they want, OP. For many if not most women, it is not even an option.

The financial aspects are important but aren’t the only important thing to consider. I stayed home for several years. I wish I hadn’t. I think I was depressed, and I knew a number of SAHMs who were medicated for depression and anxiety. I’m happier working, but that’s just me. Watch for depression and anxiety, especially as your kids grow up and your role changes, and as you hit perimenopause, which can wreak havoc on your mind and body.

Just enjoy your life. All we really have is now.

I agree in general with your post, but... do you also tell working people to watch out for signs of depression and anxiety? PLENTY of working women rely on antidepressants and anti anxiety meds, too. It's not like depression is unique to SAHM's.

It's not unique to SAHMs, of course, but working a 9-5 imposes some order/purpose/social interaction on your everyday life that can be helpful. As a SAHM, you have unstructured days, you're never really "off the clock," but at the same time there's not a lot of external validation for the (very hard) work you are doing, and it's easy to become isolated from other adults if you don't make an effort to socialize.

I know myself and even though I sometimes fantasize about quitting my job so I can focus all my energy on my kids and home (instead of feeling like I am failing at both work and home all the time), it would be a bad choice for my mental health.

My favorite is when people say “the work a SAHM does could be done by anybody, you’re totally replaceable.”

So what? In what line of work are you *not* replaceable? Your boss might be sad if you disappeared but they would make do without you.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People who have the luxury of this choice - staying home or working full time - should do what they want, OP. For many if not most women, it is not even an option.

The financial aspects are important but aren’t the only important thing to consider. I stayed home for several years. I wish I hadn’t. I think I was depressed, and I knew a number of SAHMs who were medicated for depression and anxiety. I’m happier working, but that’s just me. Watch for depression and anxiety, especially as your kids grow up and your role changes, and as you hit perimenopause, which can wreak havoc on your mind and body.

Just enjoy your life. All we really have is now.

I have had several family members get CRAZY defensive about being SAHM (basically if you say you like your job or anything at all about work you are “looking down at them”) and never really understood why because I just don’t understand why anyone cares. My deciding to work in no way reflects on anyone deciding to stop working. I think there are pluses and minuses to both especially right now. I hate seeing judgmental posts about either choice.

Background: I’m a SAHM. I have a friend who is also a SAHM and is from an area where lots of women SAH. When she and her husband were in the DMV for a couple years, she told me that when people asked her what she does, she says “I *choose* to stay at home with my children.” I was like wft?? She said that people gave her weird looks and I’m like yeah, because that’s a bizarrely passive aggressive thing to insert into a normal conversation, not because they’re judging you. I just thought it was so hilarious that she was proud of herself for standing up for herself like that.

I know that people judge me for staying at home, but in-person I got the impression somebody was judging me for it only once in my 12 years of doing this. I know what when people say “what do you do all day?” they’re either asking out of curiosity or looking for ideas. I’m sure some people do get lots of crap about it but the vast majority of people just don’t care.

How DOESN’T raising kids advance and benefit the society as whole? It may not benefit YOU personally. But raising well adjusted, enriched kids does affect the next generation to come. What that looks like might be different from family to family. But for some it means having a mother at home.

System is rigged and makes you believe that it’s the right way to do things and no one should stray. Minions only live to serve economy, not humanity.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You should do you. The value that you add to your family and kids is difficult to measure - but it's significant. Society should value it more.

Who cares what "society" thinks. The value is entirely maintained within the family system - it's not like "society" reaps some benefit from this decision. But there is no need for external validation, is there?

Society absolutely benefits from this decision.

With women staying home indefinitely? I don't think so. It papers over holes in our social infrastructure but my life isn't any better because someone decides not to work ever again.

I still think it's a totally fine choice to make, and that if you have the luxury of being able to make that choice then cheers to you and to your family!

Just because you can't see what these people are doing to benefit your life doesn't mean they aren't. I don't see you doing anything to benefit them either, but I'm sure your paid labor has some social value beyond the economic. Similarly their unpaid labor has both social and economic value. If you suddenly removed every SAHP from society, what do you image would happen? You note that they "paper[] over holes in our social infrastructure" as if that were a minor thing easily fixed by ... what? Capitalism? Socialism? If every one of them were required to enter the paid workforce tomorrow, you really think nothing bad would come of that? Read some feminist critiques of Marx as a starting point. An economic model that fails to include the unpaid labor in society is obviously deficient, as is failing to recognize the inequality of pay across diverse workers. Similarly a failure to include non-bankable benefits of a variety of social roles is tunnel vision over-emphasizing currency as a measure of life and society.

I hear you in the case of low income families. But in this case OP simply has the financial means not to have to work even if her family doesn't need her home. That's what she told us - and it's why she says she's struggling a little with the decision. There's no positive externality to that.

But I also think it's a perfectly valid decision to make! That's why I say: who cares what society thinks of the decision. I think it's silly to demand that society somehow recognize that OP is making a decision that's beneficial beyond her family - it's clearly not - but who cares? Have enough self-esteem and self-awareness to make the decision that works for you and your family, and not care if society's giving you a pat on the back while you're doing it.

It's basically the dream to not have to work - and not because your labor is so desperately needed at home that of course you can't be shared with a workplace. But because this is what you want to do, and you have the means to do it. THAT is freedom - and it's what OP is describing.

Anonymous wrote:I once read a critique that said that American feminism ignored the caregiving responsibilities of women while European feminismprioritized them -- and that is why European countries have long had things like paid parental leave and other social supports for parents.

Here is the reality. If you have kids, someone has to care for them. You can outsource it to daycare or a nanny; you can split shifts with a partner to minimize the need for childcare; you can have a grandparent provide childcare; or you can have one parent stay home. Now, dads can stay home, too, so I am not advocating rigid gender roles, but the reality is that women bear the brunt of this. Our country like to pretend this is not the case because it is inconvenient for women's advancement. Earlier in my career, when I was still trying to climb, I never, ever admitted I was leaving "early" to pick up my kids. I did not have pictures of my kids in my office. Everyone was more comfortable when they could pretend my kids didn't exist. And you know what? My kids suffered from my long hours and the lack of attention.

America has long undervalued caregiving, which is fundamentally pretty sexist when you really think about it.

There are many factors that go into European countries offering better parental benefits:

1. A less flexible labor market that makes it harder to renter the workforce once you’ve left

2. Women often being on their own financially and men not sharing bank accounts. How could you have children if you earned $0 during the leave? There isn’t the leave provided by the husband that there is here. Women are often expected to work just like men.

3. Higher cost of living. Americans think their COL is high but it’s much much less than European counterparts. Basic foods like food and clothing are much more expensive. As is housing.

I once read a critique that said that American feminism ignored the caregiving responsibilities of women while European feminismprioritized them -- and that is why European countries have long had things like paid parental leave and other social supports for parents.

Here is the reality. If you have kids, someone has to care for them. You can outsource it to daycare or a nanny; you can split shifts with a partner to minimize the need for childcare; you can have a grandparent provide childcare; or you can have one parent stay home. Now, dads can stay home, too, so I am not advocating rigid gender roles, but the reality is that women bear the brunt of this. Our country like to pretend this is not the case because it is inconvenient for women's advancement. Earlier in my career, when I was still trying to climb, I never, ever admitted I was leaving "early" to pick up my kids. I did not have pictures of my kids in my office. Everyone was more comfortable when they could pretend my kids didn't exist. And you know what? My kids suffered from my long hours and the lack of attention.

America has long undervalued caregiving, which is fundamentally pretty sexist when you really think about it.

It’s a divisive issue and women on both sides become very defensive about their choice and offensive about alternative but it doesn’t have to be, as long as women aren’t being forced and making their own decisions about how to spend their time on earth.

Everyone contributes in their own way and it’s delusion to think of your way as the right way or your contribution bigger than other person’s contribution. It’s vanity, not virtue. Elephants aren’t doing more than ants or vice versa.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You should do you. The value that you add to your family and kids is difficult to measure - but it's significant. Society should value it more.

Who cares what "society" thinks. The value is entirely maintained within the family system - it's not like "society" reaps some benefit from this decision. But there is no need for external validation, is there?

Society absolutely benefits from this decision.

With women staying home indefinitely? I don't think so. It papers over holes in our social infrastructure but my life isn't any better because someone decides not to work ever again.

I still think it's a totally fine choice to make, and that if you have the luxury of being able to make that choice then cheers to you and to your family!

Just because you can't see what these people are doing to benefit your life doesn't mean they aren't. I don't see you doing anything to benefit them either, but I'm sure your paid labor has some social value beyond the economic. Similarly their unpaid labor has both social and economic value. If you suddenly removed every SAHP from society, what do you image would happen? You note that they "paper[] over holes in our social infrastructure" as if that were a minor thing easily fixed by ... what? Capitalism? Socialism? If every one of them were required to enter the paid workforce tomorrow, you really think nothing bad would come of that? Read some feminist critiques of Marx as a starting point. An economic model that fails to include the unpaid labor in society is obviously deficient, as is failing to recognize the inequality of pay across diverse workers. Similarly a failure to include non-bankable benefits of a variety of social roles is tunnel vision over-emphasizing currency as a measure of life and society.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People who have the luxury of this choice - staying home or working full time - should do what they want, OP. For many if not most women, it is not even an option.

The financial aspects are important but aren’t the only important thing to consider. I stayed home for several years. I wish I hadn’t. I think I was depressed, and I knew a number of SAHMs who were medicated for depression and anxiety. I’m happier working, but that’s just me. Watch for depression and anxiety, especially as your kids grow up and your role changes, and as you hit perimenopause, which can wreak havoc on your mind and body.

Just enjoy your life. All we really have is now.

I have had several family members get CRAZY defensive about being SAHM (basically if you say you like your job or anything at all about work you are “looking down at them”) and never really understood why because I just don’t understand why anyone cares. My deciding to work in no way reflects on anyone deciding to stop working. I think there are pluses and minuses to both especially right now. I hate seeing judgmental posts about either choice.

It’s just dumb judging other people’s choices or or feeling the need to defend your own. Why care what other people think? Don’t sweat over stupid worldly stuff. You don’t need to to prove anything to anyone. Nobody is walking in your shoes or going to your grave. Well, every one is going to their grave, sooner or later so unapologetically live your choice and support other humans in their choices. Living as a human is tough enough, don’t make it tougher for yourself or for others. Choose kindness. EVERY TIME.

Anonymous wrote:People who have the luxury of this choice - staying home or working full time - should do what they want, OP. For many if not most women, it is not even an option.

The financial aspects are important but aren’t the only important thing to consider. I stayed home for several years. I wish I hadn’t. I think I was depressed, and I knew a number of SAHMs who were medicated for depression and anxiety. I’m happier working, but that’s just me. Watch for depression and anxiety, especially as your kids grow up and your role changes, and as you hit perimenopause, which can wreak havoc on your mind and body.

Just enjoy your life. All we really have is now.

I have had several family members get CRAZY defensive about being SAHM (basically if you say you like your job or anything at all about work you are “looking down at them”) and never really understood why because I just don’t understand why anyone cares. My deciding to work in no way reflects on anyone deciding to stop working. I think there are pluses and minuses to both especially right now. I hate seeing judgmental posts about either choice.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You should do you. The value that you add to your family and kids is difficult to measure - but it's significant. Society should value it more.

Who cares what "society" thinks. The value is entirely maintained within the family system - it's not like "society" reaps some benefit from this decision. But there is no need for external validation, is there?

Society absolutely benefits from this decision.

With women staying home indefinitely? I don't think so. It papers over holes in our social infrastructure but my life isn't any better because someone decides not to work ever again.

I still think it's a totally fine choice to make, and that if you have the luxury of being able to make that choice then cheers to you and to your family!

I think it's a very valid reason to drop out of the workforce. If you don't need more money and your family is happy with you home, then that's great!

What's hard though is when women whose HHI is less than 100k drop out, the entire family struggles for money and have trouble saving for the future or current issues.

DH and I each make 125k. It's not enough for one of us to stay home. But we wish that one of us could work part time. We are STRUGGLING with school and daycare closures. Our house is tiny, so a nanny doesn't make sense either. DH and I both are so incredibly happy with our jobs too; we've found that the less well paid roles (which would mean less hours and easier work) were not fulfilling. We were constantly screamed at or micromanaged, but as we climbed the ranks- job satisfaction went way up. So that's another reason it's hard to cut back.

Life with kids is hard right now. There's not any easy solutions floating around out there unless you can throw a lot of money at them. I have my grandma's journals and they were very interesting. She had 5 kids (spaced 3-5 years apart). She spent the majority of her days playing cards (3 full days a week), shopping, getting her hair done (took half a day weekly) and then cleaning. Her husband was a tradesman who was a master tradesman soon after marriage, so not a high paying job, just a middle class one. What's missing from my grandma's life? So much focus on kids. Kids walked to school from K onwards. Schools never closed unless if there was a true blizzard and the power went out. Kids athletics were tied to the school and they'd do them after school. It didn't require parents driving them. Kids could play outside together without someone calling CPS. My mom had a lot of paid activities, but she rode her bike to them all- girl scouts, swim lessons, swim team, dance.

Anonymous wrote:People who have the luxury of this choice - staying home or working full time - should do what they want, OP. For many if not most women, it is not even an option.

The financial aspects are important but aren’t the only important thing to consider. I stayed home for several years. I wish I hadn’t. I think I was depressed, and I knew a number of SAHMs who were medicated for depression and anxiety. I’m happier working, but that’s just me. Watch for depression and anxiety, especially as your kids grow up and your role changes, and as you hit perimenopause, which can wreak havoc on your mind and body.

Just enjoy your life. All we really have is now.

I agree in general with your post, but... do you also tell working people to watch out for signs of depression and anxiety? PLENTY of working women rely on antidepressants and anti anxiety meds, too. It's not like depression is unique to SAHM's.