Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's a good article on hiking the Savage Lundy Trail. Please note the article was written in 2015 which was before the Ferguson Fire in 2018 so there is presumably less tree cover today.
https://sierranewsonline.com/hiking-on-the-savage-lundy-trail/

Here's a blog post from a lady who turned back part way down Savage Lundy Trail. It was in 2015 with highs in the 80s.

Sigh.. link

https://califraven.com/2015/06/04/first-time-for-everything/

A granny who could barely handle the drive there?

Read her description of the area and the pictures, while having vegetation that isn't there now, also show how rugged the terrain is. One of the first pictures shows the Merced River from the trailhead.

Also, it was 25 degrees cooler on the day she described.

Ok…and?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Someone alluded to some kind of speculation on social media that’s been forbidden on WS to be discussed (because unproven at this time). I’m dying to know what it is!

WS is victim friendly so they don't allow speculation about murder/suicide without there being any official announcement from law enforcement.

Too bad DCUM isn’t “victim friendly”.

It’s 95% posters trying to viciously victim blame.

You clearly haven’t read the thread. A good 75% or more of us are just trying to solve the mystery with the clues we’ve been given. If it turns out to be heatstroke, I think some parent-blaming is appropriate at that time, but not before, unless there are extenuating circumstances it’s hard to imagine from what we know. Guessing that it’s murder-suicide doesn’t count as victim blaming.

95% were murder-suicide or “they were terrible parents based on these random assumptions I made”. None of it is respectful unless you have actual facts.

Nasty, nasty victim blamers.

Is it mental illness? People with anxiety projecting all of their self-concerns on these people?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's a good article on hiking the Savage Lundy Trail. Please note the article was written in 2015 which was before the Ferguson Fire in 2018 so there is presumably less tree cover today.
https://sierranewsonline.com/hiking-on-the-savage-lundy-trail/

Here's a blog post from a lady who turned back part way down Savage Lundy Trail. It was in 2015 with highs in the 80s.

Sigh.. link

https://califraven.com/2015/06/04/first-time-for-everything/

A granny who could barely handle the drive there?

Read her description of the area and the pictures, while having vegetation that isn't there now, also show how rugged the terrain is. One of the first pictures shows the Merced River from the trailhead.

Also, it was 25 degrees cooler on the day she described.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's a good article on hiking the Savage Lundy Trail. Please note the article was written in 2015 which was before the Ferguson Fire in 2018 so there is presumably less tree cover today.
https://sierranewsonline.com/hiking-on-the-savage-lundy-trail/

Here's a blog post from a lady who turned back part way down Savage Lundy Trail. It was in 2015 with highs in the 80s.

Sigh.. link

https://califraven.com/2015/06/04/first-time-for-everything/

A granny who could barely handle the drive there?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But here’s my thought on heatstroke - wouldn’t it take severity per person at different rates? Both adults probably wouldn’t get it and pass away at the exact same time or at the same severity, no? So maybe one succumbed 3-5hours after the other or the baby sooner than the adults. I can’t see heatstroke killing everyone at the exact same time - exact moment, hour, etc without there being some spacing between each based on body mass, fitness, hydration/dehydration levels, etc…

That is what I got stuck on but then realized they did not have to die at the same time. They likely stopped to try to rest. The husband died and it coukd have taken awhile before the wife fully realized or pulled herself together enough to try to go for help. The baby and the dog were both attached to the husband, so they could have died hours later.

Dogs are much more susceptible to heatstroke than humans. Humans evolved with elaborate cooling mechanisms that dogs just don't have. With Oski having to be carried and the adults taking turns, it was hard on them both and made them both more susceptible to heatstroke themselves due to the additional exertion. If they were load sharing carrying the baby and dog and refusing to separate to allow the healthier person to go for help, they were trapped in the same spiral.

Yes. This is the best guess I’ve seen so far.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But here’s my thought on heatstroke - wouldn’t it take severity per person at different rates? Both adults probably wouldn’t get it and pass away at the exact same time or at the same severity, no? So maybe one succumbed 3-5hours after the other or the baby sooner than the adults. I can’t see heatstroke killing everyone at the exact same time - exact moment, hour, etc without there being some spacing between each based on body mass, fitness, hydration/dehydration levels, etc…

That is what I got stuck on but then realized they did not have to die at the same time. They likely stopped to try to rest. The husband died and it coukd have taken awhile before the wife fully realized or pulled herself together enough to try to go for help. The baby and the dog were both attached to the husband, so they could have died hours later.

DP. Yes I was stuck on that too. I think you can imagine a scenario where he stopped, she was trying to get him to keep going, he couldn’t, then she finally tried to push forward on her own but it was too late.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would think a baby would be extremely fussy and crying in a bulky carrier in such high temperature. I don’t see how the parents could have continued to hike with crying baby. They probably took the baby out from the carrier, calmed her down, gave her water etc. and the hike became much longer than initially planned.

They might not be. I remember reading about a baby who died from heatstroke while in the backseat of the car, parents were in the front. They had no idea until they got to their destination that the baby had died.

Yeah it can manifest as lethargy before lapsing into unconsciousness.

Are there really conscientious parents of 1 year olds who are not aware of this when in the heat with their toddlers? Wouldn’t they have been pushing liquids and sunscreen and checking for dirty diapers, etc?

It’s one thing to think your baby is sleeping in the back of your car, another thing to be hiking in the heat….I would have been checking every minute or two.

Maybe my anxiety disorder is more useful than I realized.

Ha, I used to ride in the backseat next to baby. People made fun; anxiety disorder wins the day.

I assume WS is not tolerant of the FA speculation we have here.

I feel like this has been 100+ pages of people saying all the same things. We won't know until the final reports.

I read on WS:

"My last thought is that I don’t expect any of the autopsies/necropsy to be too conclusive. All 4 of those bodies sat out in sweltering heat for >48hrs, that will lead to a lot of confounding postmortem changes. Had they been taken off the trail the night they died, I think signs of heatstroke would likely be more readily apparent"

It's so sad. The same commenter was an ER Vet and he also said:

"We had an unprecedented heatwave at the beginning of June where temperatures reached the low 100s & the night time low was only ~80. We treated (& lost) so many (pet) patients to heatstroke in those few days, many from just attempting simple walks around their neighborhood. Most people were not used to the heat & as very few have central AC the overheating process they kicked into gear on their walks, had a hard time getting reversed once they got home.

Dogs don’t sweat, they can only release their heat through panting & evaporative (sweating) through their paw pads. This makes them much more susceptible to overheating than people as the temperature of the ground will directly impact their ability to cool (or will contribute to drive their temperature higher).

As others have theorized, I think this is a tragic case of overestimation of ability & lack of foresight regarding temperatures. I think it is highly likely the dog was the first to succumb & was likely carried, which lead to more exertion & stress in the people & then a domino effect with the heat & being on those exposed switchbacks. Very sad but hope it is a case that others can learn from when setting out for causal adventures with their pets & kids."

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Someone alluded to some kind of speculation on social media that’s been forbidden on WS to be discussed (because unproven at this time). I’m dying to know what it is!

WS is victim friendly so they don't allow speculation about murder/suicide without there being any official announcement from law enforcement.

Too bad DCUM isn’t “victim friendly”.

It’s 95% posters trying to viciously victim blame.

You clearly haven’t read the thread. A good 75% or more of us are just trying to solve the mystery with the clues we’ve been given. If it turns out to be heatstroke, I think some parent-blaming is appropriate at that time, but not before, unless there are extenuating circumstances it’s hard to imagine from what we know. Guessing that it’s murder-suicide doesn’t count as victim blaming.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But here’s my thought on heatstroke - wouldn’t it take severity per person at different rates? Both adults probably wouldn’t get it and pass away at the exact same time or at the same severity, no? So maybe one succumbed 3-5hours after the other or the baby sooner than the adults. I can’t see heatstroke killing everyone at the exact same time - exact moment, hour, etc without there being some spacing between each based on body mass, fitness, hydration/dehydration levels, etc…

That is what I got stuck on but then realized they did not have to die at the same time. They likely stopped to try to rest. The husband died and it coukd have taken awhile before the wife fully realized or pulled herself together enough to try to go for help. The baby and the dog were both attached to the husband, so they could have died hours later.

Dogs are much more susceptible to heatstroke than humans. Humans evolved with elaborate cooling mechanisms that dogs just don't have. With Oski having to be carried and the adults taking turns, it was hard on them both and made them both more susceptible to heatstroke themselves due to the additional exertion. If they were load sharing carrying the baby and dog and refusing to separate to allow the healthier person to go for help, they were trapped in the same spiral.

Anonymous wrote:But here’s my thought on heatstroke - wouldn’t it take severity per person at different rates? Both adults probably wouldn’t get it and pass away at the exact same time or at the same severity, no? So maybe one succumbed 3-5hours after the other or the baby sooner than the adults. I can’t see heatstroke killing everyone at the exact same time - exact moment, hour, etc without there being some spacing between each based on body mass, fitness, hydration/dehydration levels, etc…

That is what I got stuck on but then realized they did not have to die at the same time. They likely stopped to try to rest. The husband died and it coukd have taken awhile before the wife fully realized or pulled herself together enough to try to go for help. The baby and the dog were both attached to the husband, so they could have died hours later.

But here’s my thought on heatstroke - wouldn’t it take severity per person at different rates? Both adults probably wouldn’t get it and pass away at the exact same time or at the same severity, no? So maybe one succumbed 3-5hours after the other or the baby sooner than the adults. I can’t see heatstroke killing everyone at the exact same time - exact moment, hour, etc without there being some spacing between each based on body mass, fitness, hydration/dehydration levels, etc…

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I posted a map way earlier in thread to show the Hites Cove Trail Rd, the easier trail and a great catch by a pp. When I first saw the map, I was ahhh they took the wrong trail on the right, Hites Cove Trail (san Road). Now, I'm leaning toward something more. I won't say because it's ongoing. But I agree with other pp's, the parents were negligent before they even stepped on the trail. If only one parent survived, I'd bet they'd be lawyering up on suspicion of negligent homicide. The pp that said it's as bad as leaving a child/pet in a hot car was spot on. It's so tragic, and was so preventable. The real victims are the baby and dog. It all feels wrong. I got a weird vibe looking at the family picture. Nanny must have been interviewed in depth about the parents. Also, I agree with another poster about the oddity of mom not having a cell, and dad not having an emergency location device.

Wish the "Spirit Reader" would chime in.

Come on, please tell us (bolded). Those of us who have read 100+ pages of this thread pages are listening.

Tried to fix the format above, but I was curious about PP's "leaning toward something more. I won't say because it's ongoing." Interested to hear.

+1 Spill! I fixed the format and everything.

Please tell us, why wouldn’t you?!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would think a baby would be extremely fussy and crying in a bulky carrier in such high temperature. I don’t see how the parents could have continued to hike with crying baby. They probably took the baby out from the carrier, calmed her down, gave her water etc. and the hike became much longer than initially planned.

They might not be. I remember reading about a baby who died from heatstroke while in the backseat of the car, parents were in the front. They had no idea until they got to their destination that the baby had died.

I remember that case. Iirc it was a newborn in the back of a car with no AC on a long distance drive. So tragic.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would think a baby would be extremely fussy and crying in a bulky carrier in such high temperature. I don’t see how the parents could have continued to hike with crying baby. They probably took the baby out from the carrier, calmed her down, gave her water etc. and the hike became much longer than initially planned.

They might not be. I remember reading about a baby who died from heatstroke while in the backseat of the car, parents were in the front. They had no idea until they got to their destination that the baby had died.

Yeah it can manifest as lethargy before lapsing into unconsciousness.

Are there really conscientious parents of 1 year olds who are not aware of this when in the heat with their toddlers? Wouldn’t they have been pushing liquids and sunscreen and checking for dirty diapers, etc?

It’s one thing to think your baby is sleeping in the back of your car, another thing to be hiking in the heat….I would have been checking every minute or two.

Maybe my anxiety disorder is more useful than I realized.

Ha, I used to ride in the backseat next to baby. People made fun; anxiety disorder wins the day.

I assume WS is not tolerant of the FA speculation we have here.

I feel like this has been 100+ pages of people saying all the same things. We won't know until the final reports.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's a good article on hiking the Savage Lundy Trail. Please note the article was written in 2015 which was before the Ferguson Fire in 2018 so there is presumably less tree cover today.
https://sierranewsonline.com/hiking-on-the-savage-lundy-trail/

Here's a blog post from a lady who turned back part way down Savage Lundy Trail. It was in 2015 with highs in the 80s.

Sigh.. link

https://califraven.com/2015/06/04/first-time-for-everything/