Anonymous
Post 10/14/2020 14:23     Subject: VYS Soccer - better or worse?
Just to add to the above.... My son who is at BRYC started at Vienna. He was not on the top team and we felt he should have been. After a few years playing for Vienna and not being moved up we decided to look around and chose BRYC. He has really flourished at BRYC and if he wanted to could probably return to Vienna and easily make their top team but we are happy with the training he is getting. One of the positives or negatives with our VYS experience is there are almost no movement between teams from year to year. The good news is players are rarely moved down a team so if you have a kid who is having an "off" year their spot is fairly secure. The bad news if you have a strong player on a lower team it is hard to move up unless it's a roster-growing year or they have players who have quit.

My oldest played for Vienna for a few years and left for McLean with a bunch of other girls. This was back in the days where all the talented girls played for either McLean or FCV. She ended up staying there until her junior year when she wanted to focus more on school and take soccer less seriously so she ended up coming back to Vienna.
Anonymous
Post 10/14/2020 14:14     Subject: VYS Soccer - better or worse?
I have 3 kids who are or have played at various clubs in the area. Here is what I will tell you. My DD is at VYS and her team is completely made up of kids from Vienna or Oakton. There is not a single kid driving there from far away. I have a son at BRYC. Kids are coming from all over the place. Most are Fairfax but some are from as far away as Leesburg and Woodbridge. My oldest was at McLean on a very good ECNL team. I would say that at the younger ages the team was probably 2/3 McLean kids but by the U17 age the team was down to maybe 1/3 or even 1/4 McLean kids.

Vienna is not a club where kids will travel to play for. Vienna kids are from Vienna. In my daughters VYS age group the team is strong but I do know there are a few Vienna girls who would be top players on her team who are playing elsewhere.
Anonymous
Post 10/14/2020 14:03     Subject: VYS Soccer - better or worse?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:What VYS can do to keep our top players?


It's a tough question; sort of like that chicken-and-egg riddle. Good players need good teammates to really play at a high level against some of the other major clubs in the area. So every time VYS loses a good player to another club, it sets itself back and increases the likelihood that more players will leave. When you look at the geographic location of VYS, it's natural area extends well beyond the town of Vienna, and so one would think it has the potential to be just as strong as some of the other nearby clubs. I'd like to see that.

Why do some good players leave VYS? It's probably related to the desire to play on a team with other teammates that are able to play at at higher level, to play and perform against better competition. That seems obvious.

One part of it is really tough to solve -- VYS may simply not have enough "good" players right now to support their top players, so they've got to work with the players they have and develop them to their maximum potential. If that can be accomplished, fewer of the "top" players would leave for other clubs, which would strengthen the VYS teams, lead to more success, and ideally attract other top players. That's all about coaching and training, and continuing to develop that. They seem to be doing a good job from my experience, but of course, there's always room to continue improving.

The other part, however, is more about philosophy.

First, does VYS do the same thing that other clubs do, even at U-little, and play kids at the positions they're at, and allow them to specialize and improve in those roles? Or do they rotate players frequently, from offense to defense, left to right side, goalkeeper to striker, etc., under the theory that that is how to best develop players? At tournaments, I've seen other strong teams play the same players in the same position, keep the same goalkeeper all game (usually a very good one), rather than rotate them all around the field; this approach of course results in stronger team play and better performance. I understand that some trial-and-error is needed to find the "best" position for each player, but the trial-and-error can be overdone. "Top" players who everyone can see will never be a goalkeeper or a striker may look for a club with a different philosophy so that they can spend time on the ball in their "best" position rather than being asked to play a role that they are not suited for. Success attracts success.

Second, does VYS follow a similar playing-time philosophy to other clubs, i.e., the ones they're losing "top" players to? After a recent tournament game against a stronger opposing team, my U-little commented to me about two of the excellent "top" players on the other team ... he said "They never took them out of the game!" ... well, why would you, really, if you're playing to win? These couple of players were great for their age, it was a joy to watch them play even though they were on the other team. And yes, they played the entire game. VYS did the "equal playing time for all players" thing, and VYS lost (but not by much). What's the right philosophy here? Everyone will have their own opinion I suppose, but if you're a "top" player for VYS, you might start to wonder whether more time on the ball would be found at another club, and how that would be better for your player's individual development; and how that would come with stronger team play, which leads to playing at a higher level against better competition. I understand that no player should be placed on at team where they will get zero playing time, but an approach that anchors the team with some of the strongest players getting more playing time, while subbing in/out the less-developed players, might be a better way to retain "top" players. That is, after all, how sports are traditionally played. That's what I experienced playing sports as a kid -- in some sports I was a starter, in other sports, I was a little-used substitute. But I played because it was fun, I enjoyed being part of a team, and I kept trying to get better.

I don't think there's anything in the geographic location that limits VYS from being the equal to any team in NOVA. But they have to find some way to claw to near-parity with stronger clubs in the area, to retain their own top players and attract new ones.


they aren't in the leagues the top players (probably more their parents) want to end up in. McClean and Arlington are easy commutes and play in those leagues. It's just the way it is.


In short, this is an accurate statement. However, just because teams are in CCL at least in U9-12 doesn't mean they are stronger teams than VYS.
Anonymous
Post 10/14/2020 13:27     Subject: VYS Soccer - better or worse?
Anonymous wrote:What VYS can do to keep our top players?


Let me offer two quibbles with the question and then try to answer it. First, it does retain a lot of the top players it has. When we talk about VYS top player migration to other clubs, it is not all their top players. It's some. But it is often two or three at the high end of the roster. Second, a lot of top clubs don't retain all their players. We've moved from VYS to another club, but also saw a few players leave the top team at this club for a variety of reasons. It's not necessarily bad. It can be healthy or even necessary for both the players and the team.

More broadly, the question assumes that VYS is somehow failing if it does not retain all of these players. But it serves its mission well, and it is not a club or organization like some (Achilles or FCV) really looking only at high end talent and players. Who cares if they lose a few really good players every year when most teams and clubs also do? Most people are happy there and have no reason not to be.

If you want to retain that handful of top players leaving for other clubs, the real question is how do you grow a talent pool that enables you to offer teams comparable to BRYC, McLean and others. At older ages, you have to combine. So I would joint venture top teams with other clubs like GFR/PAC/Chantilly/Herndon. Retaining top talent requires you to bring in top talent or connect those players to other top players. It is very difficult for really good players to lose to other really good teams when they know they could be on those teams. So you need to get better teams to retain top talent, and you cannot do that organically given the size of the VYS service area. You may even want to consider doing these top teams U9-12.

The reason it becomes really important after U13 is roster expansion. Smaller area clubs can survive U9-10 at 7 v 7 if they are areas like VYS, with a huge youth athlete population and inevitably a few really good players at U9. But roster depth is a lot more important as the fields, roster and gametime expand.

So VYS and GFR are already pretty competitive U9-10. Combination or collaboration could make them competitive with almost all clubs at that age on the boys side. If you establish a longer track record of top teams playing the right way, maybe you can parlay that into a different league. I don't know. But is it really worth all of that drama to retain a few top players? Probably not.




Anonymous
Post 10/14/2020 11:03     Subject: VYS Soccer - better or worse?
I have a kid at VYS top team and there is not equal playing time. There are 4 girls who almost never leave the field and 4 girls who play minimal minutes. The others all rotate.
Anonymous
Post 10/14/2020 10:53     Subject: VYS Soccer - better or worse?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:they aren't in the leagues the top players (probably more their parents) want to end up in. McClean and Arlington are easy commutes and play in those leagues. It's just the way it is.


Well, they aren't -- yet. They can be. There's no reason why McClean and Arlington have a lock on that status. It has to start somewhere, though.



Those leagues tend to be static and tend to require teams good enough to compete. You can't just decide to play ECNL for the year
Anonymous
Post 10/14/2020 10:48     Subject: VYS Soccer - better or worse?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:What VYS can do to keep our top players?


It's a tough question; sort of like that chicken-and-egg riddle. Good players need good teammates to really play at a high level against some of the other major clubs in the area. So every time VYS loses a good player to another club, it sets itself back and increases the likelihood that more players will leave. When you look at the geographic location of VYS, it's natural area extends well beyond the town of Vienna, and so one would think it has the potential to be just as strong as some of the other nearby clubs. I'd like to see that.

Why do some good players leave VYS? It's probably related to the desire to play on a team with other teammates that are able to play at at higher level, to play and perform against better competition. That seems obvious.

One part of it is really tough to solve -- VYS may simply not have enough "good" players right now to support their top players, so they've got to work with the players they have and develop them to their maximum potential. If that can be accomplished, fewer of the "top" players would leave for other clubs, which would strengthen the VYS teams, lead to more success, and ideally attract other top players. That's all about coaching and training, and continuing to develop that. They seem to be doing a good job from my experience, but of course, there's always room to continue improving.

The other part, however, is more about philosophy.

First, does VYS do the same thing that other clubs do, even at U-little, and play kids at the positions they're at, and allow them to specialize and improve in those roles? Or do they rotate players frequently, from offense to defense, left to right side, goalkeeper to striker, etc., under the theory that that is how to best develop players? At tournaments, I've seen other strong teams play the same players in the same position, keep the same goalkeeper all game (usually a very good one), rather than rotate them all around the field; this approach of course results in stronger team play and better performance. I understand that some trial-and-error is needed to find the "best" position for each player, but the trial-and-error can be overdone. "Top" players who everyone can see will never be a goalkeeper or a striker may look for a club with a different philosophy so that they can spend time on the ball in their "best" position rather than being asked to play a role that they are not suited for. Success attracts success.

Second, does VYS follow a similar playing-time philosophy to other clubs, i.e., the ones they're losing "top" players to? After a recent tournament game against a stronger opposing team, my U-little commented to me about two of the excellent "top" players on the other team ... he said "They never took them out of the game!" ... well, why would you, really, if you're playing to win? These couple of players were great for their age, it was a joy to watch them play even though they were on the other team. And yes, they played the entire game. VYS did the "equal playing time for all players" thing, and VYS lost (but not by much). What's the right philosophy here? Everyone will have their own opinion I suppose, but if you're a "top" player for VYS, you might start to wonder whether more time on the ball would be found at another club, and how that would be better for your player's individual development; and how that would come with stronger team play, which leads to playing at a higher level against better competition. I understand that no player should be placed on at team where they will get zero playing time, but an approach that anchors the team with some of the strongest players getting more playing time, while subbing in/out the less-developed players, might be a better way to retain "top" players. That is, after all, how sports are traditionally played. That's what I experienced playing sports as a kid -- in some sports I was a starter, in other sports, I was a little-used substitute. But I played because it was fun, I enjoyed being part of a team, and I kept trying to get better.

I don't think there's anything in the geographic location that limits VYS from being the equal to any team in NOVA. But they have to find some way to claw to near-parity with stronger clubs in the area, to retain their own top players and attract new ones.


Your fundamental point is correct - if VYS develops players better than other clubs do, then the teams will improve and the club will get stronger and eventually potentially get accepted into a more competitive league.

However your specific recommendations are precisely the opposite of what I would choose to do. I would prefer VYS rotate players and spread out playing time to help players develop. This may cost games in the very short run, but in the medium to long term results in more skilled players, stroger teams and better results. If players need more playing time then just arrange additional games so ALL players receive additional playing time rather than giving a handful of players more playing time at the expense of their teammates who then don't improve thus weakening the team. I would also suggest that VYS move some or all of its teams to EDP. There is no need for a club based league at this level of travel soccer - and EDP would probably provide more of a challenge than VPL.

In any event, VYS (like every club) will proceed down its own path making its own choices. To the extent those choices pan out, it will improve its status over time. To the extent they don't pan out, it won't.
Anonymous
Post 10/14/2020 10:24     Subject: VYS Soccer - better or worse?
Anonymous wrote:they aren't in the leagues the top players (probably more their parents) want to end up in. McClean and Arlington are easy commutes and play in those leagues. It's just the way it is.


Well, they aren't -- yet. They can be. There's no reason why McClean and Arlington have a lock on that status. It has to start somewhere, though.
Anonymous
Post 10/14/2020 10:22     Subject: VYS Soccer - better or worse?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:What VYS can do to keep our top players?


It's a tough question; sort of like that chicken-and-egg riddle. Good players need good teammates to really play at a high level against some of the other major clubs in the area. So every time VYS loses a good player to another club, it sets itself back and increases the likelihood that more players will leave. When you look at the geographic location of VYS, it's natural area extends well beyond the town of Vienna, and so one would think it has the potential to be just as strong as some of the other nearby clubs. I'd like to see that.

Why do some good players leave VYS? It's probably related to the desire to play on a team with other teammates that are able to play at at higher level, to play and perform against better competition. That seems obvious.

One part of it is really tough to solve -- VYS may simply not have enough "good" players right now to support their top players, so they've got to work with the players they have and develop them to their maximum potential. If that can be accomplished, fewer of the "top" players would leave for other clubs, which would strengthen the VYS teams, lead to more success, and ideally attract other top players. That's all about coaching and training, and continuing to develop that. They seem to be doing a good job from my experience, but of course, there's always room to continue improving.

The other part, however, is more about philosophy.

First, does VYS do the same thing that other clubs do, even at U-little, and play kids at the positions they're at, and allow them to specialize and improve in those roles? Or do they rotate players frequently, from offense to defense, left to right side, goalkeeper to striker, etc., under the theory that that is how to best develop players? At tournaments, I've seen other strong teams play the same players in the same position, keep the same goalkeeper all game (usually a very good one), rather than rotate them all around the field; this approach of course results in stronger team play and better performance. I understand that some trial-and-error is needed to find the "best" position for each player, but the trial-and-error can be overdone. "Top" players who everyone can see will never be a goalkeeper or a striker may look for a club with a different philosophy so that they can spend time on the ball in their "best" position rather than being asked to play a role that they are not suited for. Success attracts success.

Second, does VYS follow a similar playing-time philosophy to other clubs, i.e., the ones they're losing "top" players to? After a recent tournament game against a stronger opposing team, my U-little commented to me about two of the excellent "top" players on the other team ... he said "They never took them out of the game!" ... well, why would you, really, if you're playing to win? These couple of players were great for their age, it was a joy to watch them play even though they were on the other team. And yes, they played the entire game. VYS did the "equal playing time for all players" thing, and VYS lost (but not by much). What's the right philosophy here? Everyone will have their own opinion I suppose, but if you're a "top" player for VYS, you might start to wonder whether more time on the ball would be found at another club, and how that would be better for your player's individual development; and how that would come with stronger team play, which leads to playing at a higher level against better competition. I understand that no player should be placed on at team where they will get zero playing time, but an approach that anchors the team with some of the strongest players getting more playing time, while subbing in/out the less-developed players, might be a better way to retain "top" players. That is, after all, how sports are traditionally played. That's what I experienced playing sports as a kid -- in some sports I was a starter, in other sports, I was a little-used substitute. But I played because it was fun, I enjoyed being part of a team, and I kept trying to get better.

I don't think there's anything in the geographic location that limits VYS from being the equal to any team in NOVA. But they have to find some way to claw to near-parity with stronger clubs in the area, to retain their own top players and attract new ones.


they aren't in the leagues the top players (probably more their parents) want to end up in. McClean and Arlington are easy commutes and play in those leagues. It's just the way it is.
Anonymous
Post 10/14/2020 10:07     Subject: VYS Soccer - better or worse?
Anonymous wrote:What VYS can do to keep our top players?


It's a tough question; sort of like that chicken-and-egg riddle. Good players need good teammates to really play at a high level against some of the other major clubs in the area. So every time VYS loses a good player to another club, it sets itself back and increases the likelihood that more players will leave. When you look at the geographic location of VYS, it's natural area extends well beyond the town of Vienna, and so one would think it has the potential to be just as strong as some of the other nearby clubs. I'd like to see that.

Why do some good players leave VYS? It's probably related to the desire to play on a team with other teammates that are able to play at at higher level, to play and perform against better competition. That seems obvious.

One part of it is really tough to solve -- VYS may simply not have enough "good" players right now to support their top players, so they've got to work with the players they have and develop them to their maximum potential. If that can be accomplished, fewer of the "top" players would leave for other clubs, which would strengthen the VYS teams, lead to more success, and ideally attract other top players. That's all about coaching and training, and continuing to develop that. They seem to be doing a good job from my experience, but of course, there's always room to continue improving.

The other part, however, is more about philosophy.

First, does VYS do the same thing that other clubs do, even at U-little, and play kids at the positions they're at, and allow them to specialize and improve in those roles? Or do they rotate players frequently, from offense to defense, left to right side, goalkeeper to striker, etc., under the theory that that is how to best develop players? At tournaments, I've seen other strong teams play the same players in the same position, keep the same goalkeeper all game (usually a very good one), rather than rotate them all around the field; this approach of course results in stronger team play and better performance. I understand that some trial-and-error is needed to find the "best" position for each player, but the trial-and-error can be overdone. "Top" players who everyone can see will never be a goalkeeper or a striker may look for a club with a different philosophy so that they can spend time on the ball in their "best" position rather than being asked to play a role that they are not suited for. Success attracts success.

Second, does VYS follow a similar playing-time philosophy to other clubs, i.e., the ones they're losing "top" players to? After a recent tournament game against a stronger opposing team, my U-little commented to me about two of the excellent "top" players on the other team ... he said "They never took them out of the game!" ... well, why would you, really, if you're playing to win? These couple of players were great for their age, it was a joy to watch them play even though they were on the other team. And yes, they played the entire game. VYS did the "equal playing time for all players" thing, and VYS lost (but not by much). What's the right philosophy here? Everyone will have their own opinion I suppose, but if you're a "top" player for VYS, you might start to wonder whether more time on the ball would be found at another club, and how that would be better for your player's individual development; and how that would come with stronger team play, which leads to playing at a higher level against better competition. I understand that no player should be placed on at team where they will get zero playing time, but an approach that anchors the team with some of the strongest players getting more playing time, while subbing in/out the less-developed players, might be a better way to retain "top" players. That is, after all, how sports are traditionally played. That's what I experienced playing sports as a kid -- in some sports I was a starter, in other sports, I was a little-used substitute. But I played because it was fun, I enjoyed being part of a team, and I kept trying to get better.

I don't think there's anything in the geographic location that limits VYS from being the equal to any team in NOVA. But they have to find some way to claw to near-parity with stronger clubs in the area, to retain their own top players and attract new ones.
Anonymous
Post 10/13/2020 23:04     Subject: VYS Soccer - better or worse?
What VYS can do to keep our top players?
Anonymous
Post 10/13/2020 21:32     Subject: Re:VYS Soccer - better or worse?
Anonymous wrote:And there was just a Vienna kid who was at Bethesda da and was recruited to play at university of Chicago this fall. You can laugh at their sports program but you really only laugh at your own peril to make fun of that university.


Also, a highly rated '04 Vienna player now with Bethesda's MLS Next team.
Anonymous
Post 10/13/2020 21:28     Subject: VYS Soccer - better or worse?
I believe there are 2 '06 Vienna boys that went to Arlington's DA (now ECNL)
Anonymous
Post 10/13/2020 20:56     Subject: Re:VYS Soccer - better or worse?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Well if Vienna's top players leave for McLean and McLean isn't very good, what does that say about Vienna's top players?


See earlier post. Boys don’t leave for McLean. They go to Arlington, BRYC, Bethesda as they age up.


OK....How many 07 or 06 boys who played for Vienna at U9-U11 and now play for Arlington or Bethesda top teams? Thanks


Some of those boys played at vda for a time as well. I think if one kid went from Vienna to Arlington top team each year that is about as many from Arlington on Arlingtons top team on per capita basis. LOL. It’s a small town and why the hell do you think this is an interesting inquiry?


Because a prior posted stated that Vienna boys leave for Arlington, BRYC, and Bethesda. I just asked to give a count on two age groups.
Anonymous
Post 10/13/2020 17:19     Subject: Re:VYS Soccer - better or worse?
RantingSoccerDad wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
RantingSoccerDad wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Well if Vienna's top players leave for McLean and McLean isn't very good, what does that say about Vienna's top players?


See earlier post. Boys don’t leave for McLean. They go to Arlington, BRYC, Bethesda as they age up.


OK....How many 07 or 06 boys who played for Vienna at U9-U11 and now play for Arlington or Bethesda top teams? Thanks


I know former 06/07 players who went to BRYC (formerly on a Vienna Silver team!) and Bethesda South, but with Bethesda South no longer operating and a pandemic occurring, I can't say where they all wound up.

Of course, I've also seen a VYS House player dominate a Marshall-Madison JV game, so it's hard to generalize.


And there was just a Vienna kid who was at Bethesda da and was recruited to play at university of Chicago this fall. You can laugh at their sports program but you really only laugh at your own peril to make fun of that university.


Well, yeah -- they did some of the research that led to the atomic bomb.


As did Einstein, Teller and Szilard. Probably a few other major U of c contributions you could include that are a little less polarizing these days. Soccer wouldn’t be one of them. I think they actually were a pretty good football program a century ago.