Anonymous wrote:We are from AZ and if you aren’t used to heat it can be misleading. In our low humidity 100 doesn’t really feel hot. Especially if you are used to how heat feels with higher humidity. It’s very dangerous because you will overheat without feeling it till it’s too late. That’s why we never go anywhere without water and have ordinances requiring businesses to have water available.

I’m also from AZ. People don’t embark on hikes in the middle of heat warnings when it’s already close to 99 degrees with no shade. It’s just not a thing.

August hiking in arizona means leaving your house before 6 AM.

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Anonymous wrote:Can we back up and talk about why someone might put a baby in a carrier and head out into that heat? I had my babies in May in DC and I didn’t use the ergo that summer when it was too hot because I was worried they would overheat with my body heat. I realize it’s a hiking pack, but still. Seems VERY reckless.

This supports the theory that a short (likely morning) hike was planned and something happened to keep them out there longer into the day than expected.

It was only in the 70s-80s for most of the morning. With no humidity that’s nothing. We frequently hiked with our babies on weekend mornings, and went home for lunch/nap before 11 AM.

Babies are often up at 5 or 6 am, they could have gone out super early.

You are not correct re the temperature from what has been reported, and we don’t know when they left. LE initially said afternoon. Here are the readings that Sunday from El Portal, just a couple miles away, but at a higher (cooler) elevation than where they were found:

6:51AM 73F 49%
7:51AM 77°F 47%
8:51AM 85°F 37%
9:51AM 92°F 28%
10:51AM 99°F 22%
11:51AM 103°F 20%
12:51PM 107°F 17%
1:51PM 108°F 16%
2:51PM 109°F 16%
3:51PM 107°F 18%
4:51PM 105°F 19%
5:51PM 101°F 22%
6:51PM 98°F 24%
7:51PM 94°F 28%

Ok I’m the PP who’s been saying it wasn’t that hot in the morning. I stand corrected. This is pretty hot. This data is different from what I saw reported earlier. After seeing this, heat stroke does seem more possible (though I’m still in the FA camp).

Just bumping up this post from several days ago that includes the temp data.

I had pulled those temperatures from Websleuths and just double-checked that they were accurate. They are--scroll down on this page from the El Portal weather station from 8/15 (only a couple miles away from their trail, but in a shady spot at a higher elevation, so the temperatures the family faced on Savage Lundy were likely several degrees hotter): http://cdec4gov.water.ca.gov/dynamicapp/QueryF?s=EPW&d=15-Aug-2021+17:15&span=12hours

What I'm only now noticing is that it was actually fairly humid for most of the morning of the 15th. Check out the relative humidity of 47% at 7:00 am, falling to around 20% by 11:00 am. That doesn't seem like the "dry heat" they may have been expecting.

[quote=Anonymous]I posted a map way earlier in thread to show the Hites Cove Trail Rd, the easier trail and a great catch by a pp. When I first saw the map, I was ahhh they took the wrong trail on the right, Hites Cove Trail (san Road). Now, I'm leaning toward something more. I won't say because it's ongoing. But I agree with other pp's, the parents were negligent before they even stepped on the trail. If only one parent survived, I'd bet they'd be lawyering up on suspicion of negligent homicide. The pp that said it's as bad as leaving a child/pet in a hot car was spot on. It's so tragic, and was so preventable. The real victims are the baby and dog. It all feels wrong. I got a weird vibe looking at the family picture. Nanny must have been interviewed in depth about the parents. Also, I agree with another poster about the oddity of mom not having a cell, and dad not having an emergency location device.

Wish the "Spirit Reader" would chime in.[/quote]

Also consider, this is california in an area with lots of beautiful scenic hikes. There are lots of places they could have chosen to go. Instead they chose this hike where they knew there was unlikely to be anyone else on the trail (and indeed, there wasn’t since they weren’t discovered despite being there for over 48 hours).

As has been pointed out, findings from the necropsy of the dog will be crucial.

(Animal necropsies take time because I don't think there are a lot of vets that do them...I know they do them on some expensive racehorses for insurance reasons and to explain if there is some genetic flaw that needs to be considered in breeding and some expensive show dogs).

I posted a map way earlier in thread to show the Hites Cove Trail Rd, the easier trail and a great catch by a pp. When I first saw the map, I was ahhh they took the wrong trail on the right, Hites Cove Trail (san Road). Now, I'm leaning toward something more. I won't say because it's ongoing. But I agree with other pp's, the parents were negligent before they even stepped on the trail. If only one parent survived, I'd bet they'd be lawyering up on suspicion of negligent homicide. The pp that said it's as bad as leaving a child/pet in a hot car was spot on. It's so tragic, and was so preventable. The real victims are the baby and dog. It all feels wrong. I got a weird vibe looking at the family picture. Nanny must have been interviewed in depth about the parents. Also, I agree with another poster about the oddity of mom not having a cell, and dad not having an emergency location device.

Wish the "Spirit Reader" would chime in.

They made a fire to heat the bottle and used wood
https://www.farodevigo.es/sociedad/2018/05/04/bosque-gallego-esconde-venenos-16014647.html

We are from AZ and if you aren’t used to heat it can be misleading. In our low humidity 100 doesn’t really feel hot. Especially if you are used to how heat feels with higher humidity. It’s very dangerous because you will overheat without feeling it till it’s too late. That’s why we never go anywhere without water and have ordinances requiring businesses to have water available.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can we back up and talk about why someone might put a baby in a carrier and head out into that heat? I had my babies in May in DC and I didn’t use the ergo that summer when it was too hot because I was worried they would overheat with my body heat. I realize it’s a hiking pack, but still. Seems VERY reckless.

This supports the theory that a short (likely morning) hike was planned and something happened to keep them out there longer into the day than expected.

It was only in the 70s-80s for most of the morning. With no humidity that’s nothing. We frequently hiked with our babies on weekend mornings, and went home for lunch/nap before 11 AM.

Babies are often up at 5 or 6 am, they could have gone out super early.

You are not correct re the temperature from what has been reported, and we don’t know when they left. LE initially said afternoon. Here are the readings that Sunday from El Portal, just a couple miles away, but at a higher (cooler) elevation than where they were found:

6:51AM 73F 49%
7:51AM 77°F 47%
8:51AM 85°F 37%
9:51AM 92°F 28%
10:51AM 99°F 22%
11:51AM 103°F 20%
12:51PM 107°F 17%
1:51PM 108°F 16%
2:51PM 109°F 16%
3:51PM 107°F 18%
4:51PM 105°F 19%
5:51PM 101°F 22%
6:51PM 98°F 24%
7:51PM 94°F 28%

Ok I’m the PP who’s been saying it wasn’t that hot in the morning. I stand corrected. This is pretty hot. This data is different from what I saw reported earlier. After seeing this, heat stroke does seem more possible (though I’m still in the FA camp).

Just bumping up this post from several days ago that includes the temp data.

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Anonymous wrote:I would bet money that they all died of heat stroke. Dad couldn't sweat b/c of big pack, was exerting himself, and it was 106 degrees with no shade! A human cannot survive if their core temp goes above 106 and there was no way for them to cool down. Babies are like old people, they can't thermo regulate. The baby was trapped in a backpack oven. Bet the dad didn't even realize til he took the pack off that the baby had died. The dog probably stopped moving at some point, at which time the dad sat down.

I’m following thread and this makes the most sense. It explains the positioning of sitting dad, dog at side, mom continuing to scramble up the hill. Dog and Dad (maybe carrying both baby and dig at this point) faltered, dad sat down, only then realizing baby was already dead. Mom freaked and began to run for help. Dog and parents were already near death at that point.

They took a baby in a baby carrier in 106 degree heat? WTF. Dumb people.

I don't think it was they took the baby out in that kind of heat so much as they didn't get back in time to avoid that kind of heat.

+1. It sounds like they miscalculated the length of the hike and the actual temperature.

+1

Or…something else happened. Maybe they were planning for a 1 hr hike but their dog got off-leash.

Sh1t happens.

Stop acting like you know what happened.

Exactly. It's like when you go on a boat for what you think will be a three hour tour and you end up marooned for years. You never know what to expect.

Anonymous wrote:I am admittedly overly invested in this case.

One thing that is mentioned repeatedly on the WebSleuths site, is that there were extreme heat warnings in the days leading up to this hike. The high in Marioposa the day before the hike was 105. A PP keeps claiming that the temps caught them off guard and they only expected it to be 97 that day. I haven’t gone snd pulled the records, but the consensus on WebSleuths seems to be that the heat was a well known factor prior to the hike and it did not unexpectedly become much hotter than anticipated.

The WS site also includes the hourly weather for the area and day of the hike, and it was over 100 at 11 and well into the 90s at 9.

It’s kind of crazy to have gone out in 90s temps too, with baby and dog, in an arid area. Just saying. I guess they really liked heat.

I am admittedly overly invested in this case.

One thing that is mentioned repeatedly on the WebSleuths site, is that there were extreme heat warnings in the days leading up to this hike. The high in Marioposa the day before the hike was 105. A PP keeps claiming that the temps caught them off guard and they only expected it to be 97 that day. I haven’t gone snd pulled the records, but the consensus on WebSleuths seems to be that the heat was a well known factor prior to the hike and it did not unexpectedly become much hotter than anticipated.

The WS site also includes the hourly weather for the area and day of the hike, and it was over 100 at 11 and well into the 90s at 9.

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Anonymous wrote:And to add 97 degrees is pretty normal summer weather in the foothills, not something that would cause a change in plans. Without humidity 97 degrees is not oppressive heat.

OMG. It is oppressive heat when you have a carrier, a child, and a dog that is not good in that type of heat. And no shade. And not enough water. It is not safe. You people who say 97° is not hot are f****** nuts

DP. You don't live there. So how do you know?

Nice name-calling. On a thread about a family who died under mysterious circumstances.

DP. Well, the heat might have killed three people and a dog. So that’s one piece of evidence that it might be risky.

"might" => key word

Sure. You do you of course, but I generally try not to do things for recreation that carry a significant risk of death.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And to add 97 degrees is pretty normal summer weather in the foothills, not something that would cause a change in plans. Without humidity 97 degrees is not oppressive heat.

OMG. It is oppressive heat when you have a carrier, a child, and a dog that is not good in that type of heat. And no shade. And not enough water. It is not safe. You people who say 97° is not hot are f****** nuts

DP. You don't live there. So how do you know?

Nice name-calling. On a thread about a family who died under mysterious circumstances.

DP. Well, the heat might have killed three people and a dog. So that’s one piece of evidence that it might be risky.

Or it might have been a boulder.

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would bet money that they all died of heat stroke. Dad couldn't sweat b/c of big pack, was exerting himself, and it was 106 degrees with no shade! A human cannot survive if their core temp goes above 106 and there was no way for them to cool down. Babies are like old people, they can't thermo regulate. The baby was trapped in a backpack oven. Bet the dad didn't even realize til he took the pack off that the baby had died. The dog probably stopped moving at some point, at which time the dad sat down.

I’m following thread and this makes the most sense. It explains the positioning of sitting dad, dog at side, mom continuing to scramble up the hill. Dog and Dad (maybe carrying both baby and dig at this point) faltered, dad sat down, only then realizing baby was already dead. Mom freaked and began to run for help. Dog and parents were already near death at that point.

They took a baby in a baby carrier in 106 degree heat? WTF. Dumb people.

I don't think it was they took the baby out in that kind of heat so much as they didn't get back in time to avoid that kind of heat.

+1. It sounds like they miscalculated the length of the hike and the actual temperature.

+1

Or…something else happened. Maybe they were planning for a 1 hr hike but their dog got off-leash.

Sh1t happens.

Stop acting like you know what happened.

I don’t think these pps are disagreeing with you. They are saying the hike was longer and hotter than anticipated. This may have been due to getting lost, the dog getting loose, any number of things. Regardless of what caused it they were out too long.

Then it’s not a “miscalculation”.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And to add 97 degrees is pretty normal summer weather in the foothills, not something that would cause a change in plans. Without humidity 97 degrees is not oppressive heat.

OMG. It is oppressive heat when you have a carrier, a child, and a dog that is not good in that type of heat. And no shade. And not enough water. It is not safe. You people who say 97° is not hot are f****** nuts

DP. You don't live there. So how do you know?

Nice name-calling. On a thread about a family who died under mysterious circumstances.

DP. Well, the heat might have killed three people and a dog. So that’s one piece of evidence that it might be risky.

"might" => key word