Anonymous
Post 06/23/2021 15:33     Subject: Will DC resume commuter traffic patterns in the fall?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:

Well, we know what the city thinks about its small businesses, so I expect to see Connecticut narrowed down to one lane in each direction any day now with permanent bike lanes and with no street parking. In fact, DDOT will just drop the "Avenue" and rename it "Connecticut Way" or "Connecticut Lane."


Study after study has found that bike lanes are good for small businesses.

So you can stop worrying now.

The area business lobbying group stated in the post that their main objective was to end the reversible lanes and rush hour parking restrictions. The businesses support the bike lanes but not at the expense of parking.
Anonymous
Post 06/23/2021 15:29     Subject: Will DC resume commuter traffic patterns in the fall?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:

Bike lanes reduce the number of people who can use roads, which reduces the circulation of people in a city. Not sure what's controversial about that observation.


Bike lanes increase the number of people who can use roads.

I mean, just think about it. What occupies more space, 1 person on a bicycle, or 1 person in a car?


Look at all the bike lanes the city has put in downtown. What is that going to do? It's going to discourage people from coming downtown because it's going to be too much of a hassle to park, and traffic downtown will be a lot worse.

Some fraction of the people who drove downtown will still come downtown via other means, such as the subway. But most will probably just go somewhere else because there's nothing *that* special about downtown that people can't get elsewhere. (Lots of people can also just work from home). A few more people will ride bicyclists downtown but probably not that many because the number of bikers in DC is small to begin with. The net effect will be the reduce the total number of people who come downtown.

That will disrupt the entire economy downtown. The amounts restaurants pay for rent for example are keyed off assumptions about how many people they'll serve. If their customer bases suddenly shrink, because now it's too much trouble for people to actually get to their restaurant, then those rents suddenly don't make sense.


Where is the evidence for this claim? I have seen it - or some variation on it - raised time and again on this thread, but never, ever, ever with a single shred of evidence. Not thought experiments, evidence. Where is the evidence that bike lanes make traffic a lot worse?

The rest of your post embodies the Yogi Berra quote: "nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded." If it's too much trouble to go downtown, why is the traffic so bad? Could it be because of all of the people who want to go downtown?


Well, there's more than one way traffic can get worse, isn't there? One is obviously is you increase the number of cars. The other is if you decreases the capacity of streets to accommodate traffic. The latter is what happens when you add bike lanes -- you reduce the amount of car traffic the road can handle. You can end up with worse traffic even if the total number of cars has declined.
Anonymous
Post 06/23/2021 15:29     Subject: Will DC resume commuter traffic patterns in the fall?
BOTH sides of the bike lane debate are talking nonsense without hard and relevant data to support their claims. Otherwise, it's just hot air.
Anonymous
Post 06/23/2021 15:16     Subject: Will DC resume commuter traffic patterns in the fall?
Anonymous wrote:

Look at all the bike lanes the city has put in downtown. What is that going to do? It's going to discourage people from coming downtown because it's going to be too much of a hassle to park, and traffic downtown will be a lot worse.

Some fraction of the people who drove downtown will still come downtown via other means, such as the subway. But most will probably just go somewhere else because there's nothing *that* special about downtown that people can't get elsewhere. (Lots of people can also just work from home). A few more people will ride bicyclists downtown but probably not that many because the number of bikers in DC is small to begin with. The net effect will be the reduce the total number of people who come downtown.

That will disrupt the entire economy downtown. The amounts restaurants pay for rent for example are keyed off assumptions about how many people they'll serve. If their customer bases suddenly shrink, because now it's too much trouble for people to actually get to their restaurant, then those rents suddenly don't make sense.


PP, it might help if you stopped assuming that "people" and "drivers" were synonyms.
Anonymous
Post 06/23/2021 15:12     Subject: Will DC resume commuter traffic patterns in the fall?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:

Bike lanes reduce the number of people who can use roads, which reduces the circulation of people in a city. Not sure what's controversial about that observation.


Bike lanes increase the number of people who can use roads.

I mean, just think about it. What occupies more space, 1 person on a bicycle, or 1 person in a car?


Look at all the bike lanes the city has put in downtown. What is that going to do? It's going to discourage people from coming downtown because it's going to be too much of a hassle to park, and traffic downtown will be a lot worse.

Some fraction of the people who drove downtown will still come downtown via other means, such as the subway. But most will probably just go somewhere else because there's nothing *that* special about downtown that people can't get elsewhere. (Lots of people can also just work from home). A few more people will ride bicyclists downtown but probably not that many because the number of bikers in DC is small to begin with. The net effect will be the reduce the total number of people who come downtown.

That will disrupt the entire economy downtown. The amounts restaurants pay for rent for example are keyed off assumptions about how many people they'll serve. If their customer bases suddenly shrink, because now it's too much trouble for people to actually get to their restaurant, then those rents suddenly don't make sense.


How many new bike lanes have even been planned and built during the pandemic? Many of the bike lanes you're objecting to were already there. The reason people aren't coming downtown right now is because offices are still closed; it's not because there's marginally less space to drive (or, mostly, park) in on the way there. What evidence do you have that bike lanes -- and bike lanes alone -- are responsible for reducing business to restaurants in the urban core?
Anonymous
Post 06/23/2021 15:09     Subject: Will DC resume commuter traffic patterns in the fall?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:

Well, we know what the city thinks about its small businesses, so I expect to see Connecticut narrowed down to one lane in each direction any day now with permanent bike lanes and with no street parking. In fact, DDOT will just drop the "Avenue" and rename it "Connecticut Way" or "Connecticut Lane."


Study after study has found that bike lanes are good for small businesses.

So you can stop worrying now.


Cite one objective study that supports your claim for the businesses along Connecticut Avenue. We're not talking about Seattle, San Francisco, Vancouver, Toronto, or some other city with different traffic patterns.


You want an "objective study" about the effect of bike lanes that have not yet been built yet?

Is there a reason why bike lanes would have a different effect in DC than in other cities?


"Sure, it works in all these other cities, but it will never work here, for unspecified reasons that I will never elaborate on!"

Classic DCUM boomer logic on display.


Those other cities are far larger with urban cores that are a lot less car-dependent. It's funny. DC is still very much a car-centric city despite what the small (but vocal) bike lobby says.

Produce a report that says how Connecticut Avenue businesses won't be negatively impacted by reduced car traffic. That's how to persuade people. You won't persuade people by simply talking in generalities or citing other studies that don't apply to DC.


Seattle's population is about 724,000. San Francisco's is 874,000. Vancouver's is 675,000. Toronto, at 2.93 million, is the only one of those other cities that I'd describe as "far larger" than D.C.
Anonymous
Post 06/23/2021 15:07     Subject: Will DC resume commuter traffic patterns in the fall?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:

Bike lanes reduce the number of people who can use roads, which reduces the circulation of people in a city. Not sure what's controversial about that observation.


Bike lanes increase the number of people who can use roads.

I mean, just think about it. What occupies more space, 1 person on a bicycle, or 1 person in a car?


Look at all the bike lanes the city has put in downtown. What is that going to do? It's going to discourage people from coming downtown because it's going to be too much of a hassle to park, and traffic downtown will be a lot worse.

Some fraction of the people who drove downtown will still come downtown via other means, such as the subway. But most will probably just go somewhere else because there's nothing *that* special about downtown that people can't get elsewhere. (Lots of people can also just work from home). A few more people will ride bicyclists downtown but probably not that many because the number of bikers in DC is small to begin with. The net effect will be the reduce the total number of people who come downtown.

That will disrupt the entire economy downtown. The amounts restaurants pay for rent for example are keyed off assumptions about how many people they'll serve. If their customer bases suddenly shrink, because now it's too much trouble for people to actually get to their restaurant, then those rents suddenly don't make sense.


Where is the evidence for this claim? I have seen it - or some variation on it - raised time and again on this thread, but never, ever, ever with a single shred of evidence. Not thought experiments, evidence. Where is the evidence that bike lanes make traffic a lot worse?

The rest of your post embodies the Yogi Berra quote: "nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded." If it's too much trouble to go downtown, why is the traffic so bad? Could it be because of all of the people who want to go downtown?
Anonymous
Post 06/23/2021 14:56     Subject: Will DC resume commuter traffic patterns in the fall?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:

Bike lanes reduce the number of people who can use roads, which reduces the circulation of people in a city. Not sure what's controversial about that observation.


Bike lanes increase the number of people who can use roads.

I mean, just think about it. What occupies more space, 1 person on a bicycle, or 1 person in a car?


Look at all the bike lanes the city has put in downtown. What is that going to do? It's going to discourage people from coming downtown because it's going to be too much of a hassle to park, and traffic downtown will be a lot worse.

Some fraction of the people who drove downtown will still come downtown via other means, such as the subway. But most will probably just go somewhere else because there's nothing *that* special about downtown that people can't get elsewhere. (Lots of people can also just work from home). A few more people will ride bicyclists downtown but probably not that many because the number of bikers in DC is small to begin with. The net effect will be the reduce the total number of people who come downtown.

That will disrupt the entire economy downtown. The amounts restaurants pay for rent for example are keyed off assumptions about how many people they'll serve. If their customer bases suddenly shrink, because now it's too much trouble for people to actually get to their restaurant, then those rents suddenly don't make sense.
Anonymous
Post 06/23/2021 14:50     Subject: Will DC resume commuter traffic patterns in the fall?
Anonymous wrote:


Bike lanes reduce the number of people who can use roads, which reduces the circulation of people in a city. Not sure what's controversial about that observation.


People using roads don't necessarily support the businesses they drive by. In fact, most of them don't. However, people walking and biking do stop and support the businesses they pass by. In fact, this is true at a much higher rate than for cars. Facts matter.
Anonymous
Post 06/23/2021 14:48     Subject: Will DC resume commuter traffic patterns in the fall?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Wow, I was the OP and last I checked this thread, there was only one response. So I'm surprised that it mushroomed & interested to read the competing theories & arguments.

I need to go back and read all the responses, but the point of my post was that I hope the regular patterns are resumed. Obviously, that helps commuters like me, but it also helps downtown. If my commute is a daily nightmare, I'll work from home as much as possible. My organization is shifting to a hybrid model where all employees will have the choice about where they work. I'm not going to waste an hour in bumper-to-bumper traffic each way (especially for a drive that used to be 30 minutes most of the time.)

The pandemic has killed off most of the small restaurants and shops near my office - if office workers don't come back, neither will those small businesses and the jobs they create. I understand why NWDC residents may want Beach Drive just for bikes and may want to keep cars off Conn Ave, but it's not a net benefit for the city as a whole.


Actually, many if not most upper NW residents would strongly prefer that thru vehicle traffic stay on the major arterial roadways and not be diverted into secondary roads and residential side-streets. Unfortunately, that will be the result of a plan that shrinks Connecticut's rush hour carrying capacity by 50 percent.


The plan you bolded is already in place, with or without bike lanes.
Anonymous
Post 06/23/2021 14:48     Subject: Will DC resume commuter traffic patterns in the fall?
Anonymous wrote:Wow, I was the OP and last I checked this thread, there was only one response. So I'm surprised that it mushroomed & interested to read the competing theories & arguments.

I need to go back and read all the responses, but the point of my post was that I hope the regular patterns are resumed. Obviously, that helps commuters like me, but it also helps downtown. If my commute is a daily nightmare, I'll work from home as much as possible. My organization is shifting to a hybrid model where all employees will have the choice about where they work. I'm not going to waste an hour in bumper-to-bumper traffic each way (especially for a drive that used to be 30 minutes most of the time.)

The pandemic has killed off most of the small restaurants and shops near my office - if office workers don't come back, neither will those small businesses and the jobs they create. I understand why NWDC residents may want Beach Drive just for bikes and may want to keep cars off Conn Ave, but it's not a net benefit for the city as a whole.


There will be other businesses that fill those spaces and other residents filling what had been office space that will be converted. It will take time, but this is inevitable.
Anonymous
Post 06/23/2021 14:47     Subject: Will DC resume commuter traffic patterns in the fall?
Anonymous wrote:Wow, I was the OP and last I checked this thread, there was only one response. So I'm surprised that it mushroomed & interested to read the competing theories & arguments.

I need to go back and read all the responses, but the point of my post was that I hope the regular patterns are resumed. Obviously, that helps commuters like me, but it also helps downtown. If my commute is a daily nightmare, I'll work from home as much as possible. My organization is shifting to a hybrid model where all employees will have the choice about where they work. I'm not going to waste an hour in bumper-to-bumper traffic each way (especially for a drive that used to be 30 minutes most of the time.)

The pandemic has killed off most of the small restaurants and shops near my office - if office workers don't come back, neither will those small businesses and the jobs they create. I understand why NWDC residents may want Beach Drive just for bikes and may want to keep cars off Conn Ave, but it's not a net benefit for the city as a whole.


This is exactly why the patterns pre-pandemic won't resume. Everyone will be on a hybrid model where they come in for a day or two every couple of weeks.
Anonymous
Post 06/23/2021 14:45     Subject: Will DC resume commuter traffic patterns in the fall?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:

Well, we know what the city thinks about its small businesses, so I expect to see Connecticut narrowed down to one lane in each direction any day now with permanent bike lanes and with no street parking. In fact, DDOT will just drop the "Avenue" and rename it "Connecticut Way" or "Connecticut Lane."


Study after study has found that bike lanes are good for small businesses.

So you can stop worrying now.



This is all just fanciful. Replacing parking spaces with bike lanes is tantamount to dramatically reducing the total number of people in an area. Most people drive and if you make it too hard for them to drive, most of them will just go somewhere else. They'll be replaced by a small number of bicyclists. The net effect will be a small customer base for businesses.


Most people drive THROUGH the neighborhoods and commercial areas. I will never understand why businesses wouldn't want to accommodate the people who actually live and shop in their commercial areas, rather than some fanciful idea that some Gaithersburg resident is going to stop in Cleveland Park to pick up Vace or in Chevy Chase to pick up Parthenon. It just doesn't happen now. And no, there really isn't enough parking or parking turnover on Conn Ave to suggest that those spots in the commercial areas are so vital for the viability of the businesses. If your business depends on someone being able to park right in front, then it probably is on such a thin margin that it won't be viable in the near future anyhow.
Anonymous
Post 06/23/2021 14:42     Subject: Will DC resume commuter traffic patterns in the fall?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:

Well, we know what the city thinks about its small businesses, so I expect to see Connecticut narrowed down to one lane in each direction any day now with permanent bike lanes and with no street parking. In fact, DDOT will just drop the "Avenue" and rename it "Connecticut Way" or "Connecticut Lane."


Study after study has found that bike lanes are good for small businesses.

So you can stop worrying now.


Cite one objective study that supports your claim for the businesses along Connecticut Avenue. We're not talking about Seattle, San Francisco, Vancouver, Toronto, or some other city with different traffic patterns.


What makes those cities traffic patterns unique or distinct from DC?
Anonymous
Post 06/23/2021 14:41     Subject: Will DC resume commuter traffic patterns in the fall?
Anonymous wrote:Traffic patterns will be back to pre-pandemic levels by the Fall. DC will continue to force cars off the road by over-emphasizing cyclists and pedestrians. Over time this will inevitably lead to an erosion of the city’s tax base as more residents leave and the number of jobs stagnates or declines. Then the city’s Politburo will ask what went wrong…


No, the problem has been an overemphasis for cars since the 1950's when the Streetcar was discontinued and in the 1980's when the bus/bike lanes were ended. If those were still in place, we wouldn't be having this conversation at all.