It would also be helpful if someone would identify the Central Office person that is in charge of this, so s/he can receive feedback and not just the poor principals who are in the middle of this mess. Is it Nicki Hazel, Associate Superintendent, Niki_T_Hazel@mcpsmd.org ??

I think I saw her talking about it at one of the BOE meetings, but am not 100% sure.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm going to be the Spirit of Christmas Future on this thread. I have a kid who consistently rode the 91st 92nd percentile bands for MAP-M and would have made the cut under old or new rules.

They did fine in Math 4/5. They struggled with some concepts in 5/6 but were very good about seeking teacher support and re-taking assessments, so the grades were always high. Ditto MS math - some struggles but a well-organized and hard-trying kid with good "teacher skills" to get extra help.

For everyone willing to just support their kid through 5/6, let me tell you that the MS and HS math curriculum is no joke, at least for a kid who works hard but is not necessarily gifted at things like abstract reasoning and spatial thinking.

Look down the road. Think about whether you want to be hiring a tutor for 6th grade knowing you'll need to keep that tutor on board through 12th to keep your child on the current "pathway."

For what? To learn Calculus in 11th grade and to still need to take M/V Calculus or AP Statistics in 12th, which no one needs unless they are applying to elite schools as STEM majors?

Play the long game.

Easy for you to say. Betting your child is one of those who was in the advanced track. The long game is that if your child doesn’t get to calculus by 11th, they will have a hard time getting into science / math driven programs in college - and potentially into college at all. That’s a problem. And no, I don’t want my child to struggle, but if they do the work and succeed, they still get to the same place as the kid who has an easier time. For most of us, success requires hard work.

I wish the county - and my child’s teachers - were more upfront about how MAP dictates your child’s fate and that grades are not a barometer of their path and it happens in elementary school.

Moreover, the lack of transparency

This would imply that teachers are told by central office how MAP scores will be used. We were not told that they would be one of the only data points used to select students for Compact. They are diagnostic tests and shouldn't be used as a make or break in terms of course placement. More input from teachers and parents should be taken into account.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm going to be the Spirit of Christmas Future on this thread. I have a kid who consistently rode the 91st 92nd percentile bands for MAP-M and would have made the cut under old or new rules.

They did fine in Math 4/5. They struggled with some concepts in 5/6 but were very good about seeking teacher support and re-taking assessments, so the grades were always high. Ditto MS math - some struggles but a well-organized and hard-trying kid with good "teacher skills" to get extra help.

For everyone willing to just support their kid through 5/6, let me tell you that the MS and HS math curriculum is no joke, at least for a kid who works hard but is not necessarily gifted at things like abstract reasoning and spatial thinking.

Look down the road. Think about whether you want to be hiring a tutor for 6th grade knowing you'll need to keep that tutor on board through 12th to keep your child on the current "pathway."

For what? To learn Calculus in 11th grade and to still need to take M/V Calculus or AP Statistics in 12th, which no one needs unless they are applying to elite schools as STEM majors?

Play the long game.

Easy for you to say. Betting your child is one of those who was in the advanced track. The long game is that if your child doesn’t get to calculus by 11th, they will have a hard time getting into science / math driven programs in college - and potentially into college at all. That’s a problem. And no, I don’t want my child to struggle, but if they do the work and succeed, they still get to the same place as the kid who has an easier time. For most of us, success requires hard work.

I wish the county - and my child’s teachers - were more upfront about how MAP dictates your child’s fate and that grades are not a barometer of their path and it happens in elementary school.

Moreover, the lack of transparency

Really, folks, write to the Board of Ed if you have issues with this. There are a lot of kids for whom this sucks, and some/many principals will say ¨My hands are tied¨ if this lives on as District policy. Protest to the higher forces.

Anonymous wrote:I'm going to be the Spirit of Christmas Future on this thread. I have a kid who consistently rode the 91st 92nd percentile bands for MAP-M and would have made the cut under old or new rules.

They did fine in Math 4/5. They struggled with some concepts in 5/6 but were very good about seeking teacher support and re-taking assessments, so the grades were always high. Ditto MS math - some struggles but a well-organized and hard-trying kid with good "teacher skills" to get extra help.

For everyone willing to just support their kid through 5/6, let me tell you that the MS and HS math curriculum is no joke, at least for a kid who works hard but is not necessarily gifted at things like abstract reasoning and spatial thinking.

Look down the road. Think about whether you want to be hiring a tutor for 6th grade knowing you'll need to keep that tutor on board through 12th to keep your child on the current "pathway."

For what? To learn Calculus in 11th grade and to still need to take M/V Calculus or AP Statistics in 12th, which no one needs unless they are applying to elite schools as STEM majors?

Play the long game.

Easy for you to say. Betting your child is one of those who was in the advanced track. The long game is that if your child doesn’t get to calculus by 11th, they will have a hard time getting into science / math driven programs in college - and potentially into college at all. That’s a problem. And no, I don’t want my child to struggle, but if they do the work and succeed, they still get to the same place as the kid who has an easier time. For most of us, success requires hard work.

I wish the county - and my child’s teachers - were more upfront about how MAP dictates your child’s fate and that grades are not a barometer of their path and it happens in elementary school.

Moreover, the lack of transparency

Anonymous wrote:I am a new poster, but I am a 4th grade teacher in the county. To clarify some things, this has been a crazy few days. On Thursday we were given the guidance that kids were required to score a 251 on map tests to continue in compacted math. When that was posted it was fact with official guidance from the county.

This set off a flurry of activity. On Friday, the principals met to learn the details and ask the tough questions. The result of that meeting was the lowering of standards to the 90th percentile.

I don’t know any teachers, myself included, who do not feel that the standards need to be raised. The problem is with how they are doing it and with timing. If it had been done during the first quarter, that would have made sense. But after a full year, it’s pretty harmful for some kids.

An example is I have a student who has easily scored all 5’s on district testing, quickly learns things, loves math and is a perfect addition to the class. He speaks often about how he loves being in a class with kids who all love math. He started the year at the 75th percentile and ended the year at the 88th percentile. So as he has been learning the material, he has been a sponge. Using even the lowered standards, he is not allowed to continue. This kid will suffer next year and there are a lot like him.

There is a big difference between 5th grade classrooms between schools. When the majority of kids in the school are above 50% on Map testing, a teacher can work with the curriculum and have time to enrich. In a school like mine, where the average map test is closer to the 25th percentile and many are below the 10th percentile, the higher kids really do get ignored.

I really wish there were leveled math classes. Maybe they wouldn’t be in a compacted class, but an advanced grade level class would at least give these kids some attention. I really wish there was something I could do for the kids that have worked hard this year and as a reward will be repeating half of a year of curriculum (the same half that they have already shown full mastery of).

Those of us who have been in MCPS for awhile remember the days of the leveled math classes in the early 2000's. I sometimes miss those days. It worked well for most kids to be in classes with similar performing students. Unfortunately, the lowest kids were in class together and had no sparks to learn from in their peer group. It was also very hard on the teacher who was supposed to get great scores on their unit tests just like his/her colleagues with more able students. That's why MCPS moved away from leveled classes. The lowest performing students needed more peers to learn from. Now we have a huge range of abilities in each class. Unfortunately, the highest performing kids do not get enriched because so much time has to be spent with the lowest kids. Next year there is supposed to be a big focus on enrichment in all math classes but most Eureka problem sets are only ten questions. You can hone a lesson (differentiate) as much as you want but with 10 questions there are still kids who will need more.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is such a slap in the face for Kidd who succeed and are clearly able to thrive in a compacted math setting but who didn’t have the tutors as prep to secure that 90+ percentile score. And why now? After all these kids have endured for the last year?

So lame and completely antithetical to what this school district is supposed to strive for.

MCPS is looking down the road. A child who is scoring in the 70th percentile in 4th grade is probably not going to be ready for Algebra in 7th. Kids who are scoring in 90th percentile and up are not doing so based on prepping - they have mastered the material and are ready for the next thing. Yes, maybe some are getting tutoring but the kids getting PREPPED are in the 99th percentile. The kids in the 91st or so, who are ready for 5/6? Those are just kids who have mastered the work in front of them.

Folks are being very myopic on this thread. If MCPS holds itself to this standard, a lot of kids are going to be in Math 5 next year rather than 5/6. That means they will enter middle school with a strong grounding to prepare them for Pre-Algebra in 7th and Algebra in 8th. That is a perfectly acceptable track and is, in fact, the "advanced" track in many other parts of the country. Why not take that extra year and do Algebra in 8th with the rest of the United States?

Don't let your ego about your kid being "one of the smart ones" get in the way of an actual math track that will give them the grounding they need to succeed down the road in middle and high school.

My child is actually doing really well with algebraic concepts and I’m now kicking myself that we haven’t done formal tutoring to prep for the test. She’s my oldest and I - stupidly, apparently - thought achieving all A’s in math, a right/wrong subject meant she was doing well in compacted 4/5. Her teacher repeatedly saying she’s a strong math student and gets the concepts easily. She’s been thriving in a more accelerated environment. This is literally the first year she’s LOVED math. So she’s 70% - I absolutely believe she can excel in compacted math 5/6. She does the work.

And for those dismissing the difference between calculus in 11th vs 12th - of course there’s a difference. It’s a big difference in the types of programs and colleges she’ll have an opportunity to take on. This is literally a track that either puts kids in one bucket of achievement or condemns them to another. I wish the county was more upfront with parents - prep and tutor your children, make sure they get at least 90% or they will be doomed as losers who will have limited opportunities in MCPS and afterward. And grades don’t matter; they aren’t an indicator of your child’s aptitude even in a subject like math.

That’s essentially the message. Heard loud and clear. I will invest in prep and tutoring going forward. Wish I’d known prior.

I'm going to be the Spirit of Christmas Future on this thread. I have a kid who consistently rode the 91st 92nd percentile bands for MAP-M and would have made the cut under old or new rules.

They did fine in Math 4/5. They struggled with some concepts in 5/6 but were very good about seeking teacher support and re-taking assessments, so the grades were always high. Ditto MS math - some struggles but a well-organized and hard-trying kid with good "teacher skills" to get extra help.

For everyone willing to just support their kid through 5/6, let me tell you that the MS and HS math curriculum is no joke, at least for a kid who works hard but is not necessarily gifted at things like abstract reasoning and spatial thinking.

Look down the road. Think about whether you want to be hiring a tutor for 6th grade knowing you'll need to keep that tutor on board through 12th to keep your child on the current "pathway."

For what? To learn Calculus in 11th grade and to still need to take M/V Calculus or AP Statistics in 12th, which no one needs unless they are applying to elite schools as STEM majors?

Play the long game.

I am a new poster, but I am a 4th grade teacher in the county. To clarify some things, this has been a crazy few days. On Thursday we were given the guidance that kids were required to score a 251 on map tests to continue in compacted math. When that was posted it was fact with official guidance from the county.

This set off a flurry of activity. On Friday, the principals met to learn the details and ask the tough questions. The result of that meeting was the lowering of standards to the 90th percentile.

I don’t know any teachers, myself included, who do not feel that the standards need to be raised. The problem is with how they are doing it and with timing. If it had been done during the first quarter, that would have made sense. But after a full year, it’s pretty harmful for some kids.

An example is I have a student who has easily scored all 5’s on district testing, quickly learns things, loves math and is a perfect addition to the class. He speaks often about how he loves being in a class with kids who all love math. He started the year at the 75th percentile and ended the year at the 88th percentile. So as he has been learning the material, he has been a sponge. Using even the lowered standards, he is not allowed to continue. This kid will suffer next year and there are a lot like him.

There is a big difference between 5th grade classrooms between schools. When the majority of kids in the school are above 50% on Map testing, a teacher can work with the curriculum and have time to enrich. In a school like mine, where the average map test is closer to the 25th percentile and many are below the 10th percentile, the higher kids really do get ignored.

I really wish there were leveled math classes. Maybe they wouldn’t be in a compacted class, but an advanced grade level class would at least give these kids some attention. I really wish there was something I could do for the kids that have worked hard this year and as a reward will be repeating half of a year of curriculum (the same half that they have already shown full mastery of).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is such a slap in the face for Kidd who succeed and are clearly able to thrive in a compacted math setting but who didn’t have the tutors as prep to secure that 90+ percentile score. And why now? After all these kids have endured for the last year?

So lame and completely antithetical to what this school district is supposed to strive for.

MCPS is looking down the road. A child who is scoring in the 70th percentile in 4th grade is probably not going to be ready for Algebra in 7th. Kids who are scoring in 90th percentile and up are not doing so based on prepping - they have mastered the material and are ready for the next thing. Yes, maybe some are getting tutoring but the kids getting PREPPED are in the 99th percentile. The kids in the 91st or so, who are ready for 5/6? Those are just kids who have mastered the work in front of them.

Folks are being very myopic on this thread. If MCPS holds itself to this standard, a lot of kids are going to be in Math 5 next year rather than 5/6. That means they will enter middle school with a strong grounding to prepare them for Pre-Algebra in 7th and Algebra in 8th. That is a perfectly acceptable track and is, in fact, the "advanced" track in many other parts of the country. Why not take that extra year and do Algebra in 8th with the rest of the United States?

Don't let your ego about your kid being "one of the smart ones" get in the way of an actual math track that will give them the grounding they need to succeed down the road in middle and high school.

I don´t think I hear a lot of concern about kids being the ¨smart ones¨ on this thread. I hear concern about kids who are doing the work who will be set back on their track based on testing. Nobody likes a cut score, because everyone´s circumstances are different. Also, MCPS is using the pandemic to change philosophy about acceleration. They have gone from ¨the more the merrier, let´s put all of College Gardens into 4/5¨ to performance based measures - ¨we will cut you from the course if you don´t perform." We just want kids to learn the math, right?

I really don't think this is a dramatic change, though. It only feels that way because we were all prepped by a troll to expect a cut-off of 251 so everyone was watching the thread and freaking out. What MCPS is saying this year is not that different than what MCPS said the year my oldest started compacted math. High MAP scores + good grades in the existing math class. I can't remember the exact cut-off for compacted, but I do think it matters a lot that the curriculum has been dramatically scaled back this year. A child getting As on a reduced curriculum just isn't ready to pick up the 5/6 curriculum next year as though nothing happened.

I also think MCPS may be realizing they made a mistake with the College Gardens approach. That cohort is this year's 7th graders unless I'm mistaken. That's just about the right time for MCPS to figure out that the "more is better" approach has produced some kids who are not ready for Algebra because they lack the foundational skills.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is such a slap in the face for Kidd who succeed and are clearly able to thrive in a compacted math setting but who didn’t have the tutors as prep to secure that 90+ percentile score. And why now? After all these kids have endured for the last year?

So lame and completely antithetical to what this school district is supposed to strive for.

MCPS is looking down the road. A child who is scoring in the 70th percentile in 4th grade is probably not going to be ready for Algebra in 7th. Kids who are scoring in 90th percentile and up are not doing so based on prepping - they have mastered the material and are ready for the next thing. Yes, maybe some are getting tutoring but the kids getting PREPPED are in the 99th percentile. The kids in the 91st or so, who are ready for 5/6? Those are just kids who have mastered the work in front of them.

Folks are being very myopic on this thread. If MCPS holds itself to this standard, a lot of kids are going to be in Math 5 next year rather than 5/6. That means they will enter middle school with a strong grounding to prepare them for Pre-Algebra in 7th and Algebra in 8th. That is a perfectly acceptable track and is, in fact, the "advanced" track in many other parts of the country. Why not take that extra year and do Algebra in 8th with the rest of the United States?

Don't let your ego about your kid being "one of the smart ones" get in the way of an actual math track that will give them the grounding they need to succeed down the road in middle and high school.

I don´t think I hear a lot of concern about kids being the ¨smart ones¨ on this thread. I hear concern about kids who are doing the work who will be set back on their track based on testing. Nobody likes a cut score, because everyone´s circumstances are different. Also, MCPS is using the pandemic to change philosophy about acceleration. They have gone from ¨the more the merrier, let´s put all of College Gardens into 4/5¨ to performance based measures - ¨we will cut you from the course if you don´t perform." We just want kids to learn the math, right?

Anonymous wrote:This is such a slap in the face for Kidd who succeed and are clearly able to thrive in a compacted math setting but who didn’t have the tutors as prep to secure that 90+ percentile score. And why now? After all these kids have endured for the last year?

So lame and completely antithetical to what this school district is supposed to strive for.

MCPS is looking down the road. A child who is scoring in the 70th percentile in 4th grade is probably not going to be ready for Algebra in 7th. Kids who are scoring in 90th percentile and up are not doing so based on prepping - they have mastered the material and are ready for the next thing. Yes, maybe some are getting tutoring but the kids getting PREPPED are in the 99th percentile. The kids in the 91st or so, who are ready for 5/6? Those are just kids who have mastered the work in front of them.

Folks are being very myopic on this thread. If MCPS holds itself to this standard, a lot of kids are going to be in Math 5 next year rather than 5/6. That means they will enter middle school with a strong grounding to prepare them for Pre-Algebra in 7th and Algebra in 8th. That is a perfectly acceptable track and is, in fact, the "advanced" track in many other parts of the country. Why not take that extra year and do Algebra in 8th with the rest of the United States?

Don't let your ego about your kid being "one of the smart ones" get in the way of an actual math track that will give them the grounding they need to succeed down the road in middle and high school.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The guidance that came out today said students needed to have scored in the 90th percentile on MAP-M in the fall or winter, earned A's on their report cards and scored at a level 4 or 5 on their required Eureka assessments over the course of the year. This is going to weed a lot of kids out of moving on to 5/6.

This does not seem onerous. It actually sounds like a continuation of the current/previous policy.

A whole thread of nonsense.

No, it’s not. My 4th grader has never been in the 90th percentile on the MAP M. They’ve scored b/w 60 - 88 over the course of testing but got As this year and was challenged but not burdened by the pace of compacted 4/5. This means that he won’t continue in compacted math.

And perhaps he shouldn't continue compacted math. It's not the right path for every kid.

He earned As every single quarter. Why from a research and data-grounded educational perspective is this not the right path?

NP. Because he's earned As on a substantially reduced curriculum due to COVID, and with unlimited retakes per MCPS policy. I'm not trying to be rude, but averaging in the 70th percentile should not actually put you on the accelerated track. Moreover, Math 4/5 is not that hard. Math 5/6 is harder, and then AIM is kind of a beast if the child does not have sufficient grounding in the foundational materials.

I think MCPS is doing the right thing here, and I'll note it is a very different standard than OP came on and got everyone whipped up about. This sounds very much like the standard that has been in place for years, except this time it's happening in a pandemic and with everyone first freaking out on DCUM.

Or, look at it this way. Right now your child is on track to take AP Calculus in 11th grade and to need to take yet another math course to graduate. What actual harm is done if they take Calculus as a senior instead?

My kid has been counting down the days until compacted math. He’s been so bored in regular math as after two years in MCPS they still haven’t got to where he was at his old school. His MAP scores are consistently 99 percentile but he got a B in the winter report card. I can only assume he messed up a test during class due to boredom. All As apart from that. If that keeps him from 4/5 math next year that would be devastating for a kid who is already angry with how easy the MCPS curriculum is.

PP again. I just don’t want disruptive kids of kids with complaining parents in their classes.

It punishes strivers. My kids are older but the PP who said kid scores 70-88 percentile was my DD. She’s a HS senior that TRIES really hard. She may have been 50 percentile in 4th and now as a HS Senior usually scores in the high 80’s (SAT now). I really like the philosophy of allowing kids to try but holding to a high standard. If kids can’t hack it drop down. That’s what they do for AP classes at my DDs school.

My son is more naturally gifted in math 98-99 percentile and he hasn’t been hurt with the larger class sizes. I think 1/2 of his school is in the advanced math.