^ no, just fire her

how about NOT fire her and have the conversation!

OP, do NOT ask this woman to change her clothes.

You cannot ask people to follow your religious standards for dress, and the fact that you are in a position of power over her would make such a request morally repugnant. There is no way for her to refuse freely and willingly. Given this economy, too, she would feel compelled to submit to your religious beliefs because of financial duress, and not because she believes it's the right thing to do.

The fact that it would even cross your mind to ask is appalling to me. This is the kind of self-importance and self-centeredness that makes people hate religious believers. If you don't understand why, you need to work on it.

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Anonymous wrote:On one hand, you are the employer, so it seems like your employee should abide by your comfort zone (as long as it is legal). BUT, what if you wanted her to wear a veil in your home, that would be going too far in my opinion.

How about your hire a cleaning person through an agency (which usually protects them and you more anyway, in terms of benefits/being bonded, etc). When you first put in the request, explain that due to your cultural/religious beliefs/customs, you would appreciate it if the person they send does not wear X, Y, Z (don't label it as modest, be specific, since "modest" is subjective). That way you are describing a work requirement, not insulting an individual.

Why do people keep saying that OP is the employer? It sounds like this is a cleaning lady, not a full-time housekeeper. So OP is not the employer.

Ok. OP is the client. It’s still a reasonable request.

Would it be reasonable for your employer to ask you to start wearing a headscarf to work, now that they've been bought by a Saudi conglomerate? After all, it's part of their religion.

I’m a therapist and own my own practice. It would be reasonable for a client to tell me that they would prefer that I wear a headscarf while I am with them. And it would also be completely reasonable for me to say that I am not comfortable with that and to work it out or refer them elsewhere.

If you’re a therapist, you surely recognize the differences between a therapist- client relationship and the type of relationship that the OP is describing. So, interesting observations, but not really relevant. Let’s flip it. Would it be reasonable for you to ask a client to wear a head scarf? Would it be reasonable for your clients to ask you to purchase entire outfits to wear during your sessions with them — when the outfits may cost far more than the fee they’re paying you? Would it be reasonable for them to bring you an outfit that meets their standards for acceptability? If any of these questions has made you cringe, even a little bit, then maybe some empathy and insight have been achieved.

Look. I’m not saying it’s a perfect analogy. It’s just a response to some asking me if it would be okay if my employer asked me to wear a headscarf.

Yes. Someone bringing in an outfit for me to wear or requesting that I purchase something specific to wear during sessions with them would be unusual behavior. And people suggesting that the OP purchase a uniform are out of line.

However, asking someone politely to choose a t-shirt instead of a tank top when they come to your home is reasonable. And, in my experience, most women need more encouragement to be assertive and ask for things that they want.

Has anyone ever asked you this, though? If not, again, I urge you to think about the potential power dynamics involved here. I trust that you would be equally supportive of the other woman. What would you say to a client that told you that although they were appropriately dressed, someone that they worked for a few hours a month, wanted them to change their clothes — to conform with religious beliefs that your client did not share. How would you support THIS client in being assertive and empowered in standing up to an unreasonable request?

I don’t think talking about specifics about my therapy sessions is appropriate for this forum. I will say that I work in a psychiatric emergency room on occasion, and everyone who works there has a dress code or a uniform. This is not unusual in a workplace.

As I initially said, OP is within her rights to ask, and the other woman is within her rights to refuse. Then they can either work it out or go their separate ways.

I agree. So perhaps we can also agree that having a formal workplace dress code that people are aware of before being hired is a very different and expected thing vs a person deciding that, because of their personal and religious beliefs, someone they’re hiring to do a task for a few hours should comply with their very personal standards for clothing.

That’s not exactly how things went down with my workplace dress code, but I see your point.


But here is the thing. It’s still okay for the OP to ask. The housekeeper is able to comply with the request of wearing a short sleeve top and yoga pants. It’s not a hard ask. And it would make the OP feel self-respecting to ask people to act in a way that goes along with her own morals/values while they are in her home and in front of her children. It also goes along with her own long term goals of behaving a certain way and raising her children a certain way. There may be even more reasons to ask. It would be good for the OP to make this request.

Now, does she have the right to demand? No. As you pointed out, it may or may not be appropriate in this relationship. It would have been better for the OP to ask upfront. The OP has absolutely no responsibility for the house cleaner’s modesty, and the house cleaner certainly has no moral obligation to comply with this request. A demand would be unreasonable in this situation.

But there is a lot of gray area between biting your lip and saying nothing and insisting someone else follow your wishes. This situation falls somewhere in there.

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who are you worried about seeing her body? Young boys? Your husband?

Just use this as a teachable moment. You can't keep them from such scenes at Walmart.

This is like people who homeschool, so their children are "shielded" from the real world...but then how will those kids learn to navigate it when they go to college or join a workplace.

Help them interpret what they are seeing around them, because if you try to control what the whole rest of the world, you are going to lose that battle.

I get unconrollably excited when I see skimpily dressed women with cleaning products. I understand OP's concern.

I am tempted to google if this is an actual fetish.

Have you watched Shameless? Kev, V and Svetlana start a topless cleaning service.

But it turned out the cleaners were horrible so they hired strippers to dance and then real cleaning women, right?

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Anonymous wrote:On one hand, you are the employer, so it seems like your employee should abide by your comfort zone (as long as it is legal). BUT, what if you wanted her to wear a veil in your home, that would be going too far in my opinion.

How about your hire a cleaning person through an agency (which usually protects them and you more anyway, in terms of benefits/being bonded, etc). When you first put in the request, explain that due to your cultural/religious beliefs/customs, you would appreciate it if the person they send does not wear X, Y, Z (don't label it as modest, be specific, since "modest" is subjective). That way you are describing a work requirement, not insulting an individual.

Why do people keep saying that OP is the employer? It sounds like this is a cleaning lady, not a full-time housekeeper. So OP is not the employer.

Ok. OP is the client. It’s still a reasonable request.

Would it be reasonable for your employer to ask you to start wearing a headscarf to work, now that they've been bought by a Saudi conglomerate? After all, it's part of their religion.

I’m a therapist and own my own practice. It would be reasonable for a client to tell me that they would prefer that I wear a headscarf while I am with them. And it would also be completely reasonable for me to say that I am not comfortable with that and to work it out or refer them elsewhere.

You avoided answering the question. You know perfectly well that PP isn't playing a guessing about your exactly employment and that the majority of posters work in an office for a company or the federal government.

Anonymous wrote:The thing I really don't get here is that OP is teaching her daughters that they should match society in how they dress. The idea that the fact that someone else isn't following their religious teachings is a threat to them, is just begging for them to make excuses like "but all my friends do . . . " in high school.

Families with religious values outside the mainstream need to teach their kids to hold their heads high and live out their values even when other make different choices. This is a great opportunity to practice that skill that OP is denying her kids.

You’ve made excellent points here!

Anonymous wrote:For example, a cross between these two things, both marketed as workout wear by Old Navy:

https://oldnavy.gap.com/browse/product.do?pid=646824122&vid=1&tid=onpl000017&kwid=1&ap=7&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIg9fDjcGC7gIVxqeGCh1ngwkfEAQYAiABEgKlcfD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

https://oldnavy.gap.com/browse/product.do?pid=552837112&vid=2&tid=onpl000028&kwid=1&ap=7&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIje7ew8GC7gIVpeiGCh0nDANYEAQYASABEgI59vD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds#pdp-page-content

Thank you to whoever posted these links. I was having trouble getting past the "leather pants" thing. But these links helped me to picture what OP might be talking about.

The thing I really don't get here is that OP is teaching her daughters that they should match society in how they dress. The idea that the fact that someone else isn't following their religious teachings is a threat to them, is just begging for them to make excuses like "but all my friends do . . . " in high school.

Families with religious values outside the mainstream need to teach their kids to hold their heads high and live out their values even when other make different choices. This is a great opportunity to practice that skill that OP is denying her kids.

At this late date, to answer the OPs question, no, there is no way to ask this without appearing rude and disrespectful. The time to ask someone to comply with your personal, very individual, religious based standards is BEFORE you’ve hired them. So now what you’re asking is how you can be rude, disrespectful, and controlling about something that really isn’t your concern, without alienating someone.
At the very least, your request should not cause her distress, cost her money, or leave her feeling as though she has done something wrong — because she hasn’t.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“Hey. First of all, you are doing a fantastic job, and we are so lucky to have found you. Is there anything we can do to make you happier here?

I feel odd asking this, and I don’t know if you noticed, but we like to dress pretty modestly. I don’t wear tight shirts, and we teach our daughters to dress conservatively as well. I really want to be consistent in showing them how we dress in our home. Would you mind wearing something a little higher cut when you are here? A t-shirt or sleeveless top and leggings would work. I would be really grateful, and I could increase your pay $15/week as a thank you for putting up with me being difficult.”

Yuck.

It would be funny if the woman responded, "Yes, there is anything we can do to make me happier. Please stop commenting on my clothing. Thanks!"

OP - you can request anything you want. It may or may not be done to your satisfaction. You may choose to stop enploying this person -- for any reason at all. Any reason.

Anonymous wrote:“Hey. First of all, you are doing a fantastic job, and we are so lucky to have found you. Is there anything we can do to make you happier here?

I feel odd asking this, and I don’t know if you noticed, but we like to dress pretty modestly. I don’t wear tight shirts, and we teach our daughters to dress conservatively as well. I really want to be consistent in showing them how we dress in our home. Would you mind wearing something a little higher cut when you are here? A t-shirt or sleeveless top and leggings would work. I would be really grateful, and I could increase your pay $15/week as a thank you for putting up with me being difficult.”

Yuck.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I disagree with these posters. You are hiring this cleaning lady, and if you are not happy with any aspect of the job she is doing or the way she does it - including the clothes she is wearing - you can ask her to change it.

You hired her to clean, not look prim and proper like an amish woman. Dress is not an aspect of the job. Hire someone new.

The horror of faux leather pants and cleavage.

You hired her to perform a service. And if she is not performing the service they way you want her to perform it, you are free to ask her to change it. And she is free to decide whether she wants to change it or whether she wants to walk. No big deal. She can probably find a new house to clean, and you can probably find someone else to clean the house wearing attire that you believe is appropriate.

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Anonymous wrote:I disagree with these posters. You are hiring this cleaning lady, and if you are not happy with any aspect of the job she is doing or the way she does it - including the clothes she is wearing - you can ask her to change it.

Where does it end? What if the cleaning lady changes to clothing she thinks is more modest but OP still thinks it’s not modest enough?

Sure OP can ask the woman to change her clothing, but she also has to be prepared to live with the consequences of losing a very good cleaning lady.

I mean, yes, it could in theory go on forever. In practice, the cleaning lady will presumably take the hint and dress the way the OP wants. Or the cleaning lady could walk - as she has a right to do. I don't understand all the drama that people are creating about this - it is a business relationship, nothing more, nothing less. Either party is free to make demands and free to choose not to continue the relationship.

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Anonymous wrote:On one hand, you are the employer, so it seems like your employee should abide by your comfort zone (as long as it is legal). BUT, what if you wanted her to wear a veil in your home, that would be going too far in my opinion.

How about your hire a cleaning person through an agency (which usually protects them and you more anyway, in terms of benefits/being bonded, etc). When you first put in the request, explain that due to your cultural/religious beliefs/customs, you would appreciate it if the person they send does not wear X, Y, Z (don't label it as modest, be specific, since "modest" is subjective). That way you are describing a work requirement, not insulting an individual.

Why do people keep saying that OP is the employer? It sounds like this is a cleaning lady, not a full-time housekeeper. So OP is not the employer.

Ok. OP is the client. It’s still a reasonable request.

Would it be reasonable for your employer to ask you to start wearing a headscarf to work, now that they've been bought by a Saudi conglomerate? After all, it's part of their religion.

I’m a therapist and own my own practice. It would be reasonable for a client to tell me that they would prefer that I wear a headscarf while I am with them. And it would also be completely reasonable for me to say that I am not comfortable with that and to work it out or refer them elsewhere.

If you’re a therapist, you surely recognize the differences between a therapist- client relationship and the type of relationship that the OP is describing. So, interesting observations, but not really relevant. Let’s flip it. Would it be reasonable for you to ask a client to wear a head scarf? Would it be reasonable for your clients to ask you to purchase entire outfits to wear during your sessions with them — when the outfits may cost far more than the fee they’re paying you? Would it be reasonable for them to bring you an outfit that meets their standards for acceptability? If any of these questions has made you cringe, even a little bit, then maybe some empathy and insight have been achieved.

Look. I’m not saying it’s a perfect analogy. It’s just a response to some asking me if it would be okay if my employer asked me to wear a headscarf.

Yes. Someone bringing in an outfit for me to wear or requesting that I purchase something specific to wear during sessions with them would be unusual behavior. And people suggesting that the OP purchase a uniform are out of line.

However, asking someone politely to choose a t-shirt instead of a tank top when they come to your home is reasonable. And, in my experience, most women need more encouragement to be assertive and ask for things that they want.

Has anyone ever asked you this, though? If not, again, I urge you to think about the potential power dynamics involved here. I trust that you would be equally supportive of the other woman. What would you say to a client that told you that although they were appropriately dressed, someone that they worked for a few hours a month, wanted them to change their clothes — to conform with religious beliefs that your client did not share. How would you support THIS client in being assertive and empowered in standing up to an unreasonable request?

I don’t think talking about specifics about my therapy sessions is appropriate for this forum. I will say that I work in a psychiatric emergency room on occasion, and everyone who works there has a dress code or a uniform. This is not unusual in a workplace.

As I initially said, OP is within her rights to ask, and the other woman is within her rights to refuse. Then they can either work it out or go their separate ways.

I agree. So perhaps we can also agree that having a formal workplace dress code that people are aware of before being hired is a very different and expected thing vs a person deciding that, because of their personal and religious beliefs, someone they’re hiring to do a task for a few hours should comply with their very personal standards for clothing.