Direct quote from one of PP’s anti textbook articles:

“The educational community was quick to respond to the (legitimate) criticism of textbooks,” he wrote, “but quicker still to adopt their horrific replacements: excessive use of lecture, worksheets, movies, poster making, and pointless group work.”

^This is largely what I’m seeing at my AAP center, but replacing the lecture bit with pointless centers. Lack of textbooks wouldn’t be a problem if the school had a curriculum and abandoned the centers model. No textbook + no curriculum = teachers having to generate content from thin air.

For both of my kids, VA Studies was a much higher quality class than anything else they’ve done in elementary. It’s also the only class that has a textbook.

Re:teachers working as a team. They only do in 6th grade at my AAP center. In the other grades, there’s no correspondence between lessons and homework between AAP classes. Each teacher is a loner doing whatever he or she wants.

Fcps does not have digital textbooks either, for the most part. The only elementary class that has a digital textbook is Virginia studies. In ES, there are no textbooks for math, language arts, science, or social studies excluding 4th grade.

Many of your arguments against textbooks apply to high school or college, where a professor is teaching classes only in an area of expertise. It’s different for elementary teachers, since they teach all of the subjects. When they’re given no textbooks and no curriculum, it’s a huge time investment for the teacher to generate that on her own for 4 different core subjects.

Anonymous wrote: This could work but it would require outstanding teachers who work together well as a team. From the same article where you quoted the "textbooks are like crutches", they also caution: "On the other hand, the overhead required to teach without a text can be high, and failing to commit fully can leave students in a worse position than if they had a textbook" I think the problem is that a lot of people feel that the teaching in the area is not as strong overall as the high school ratings suggest. While it's definitely true that many textbooks are overrated, in cases where a teacher cannot effectively teach with whatever materials they're using, a textbook can be a life saver for a kid who is confused in class. And we can agree that a school provided textbook that the kid and their parent could work together at home is a lot cheaper than having to go to Mathnasium, and other outside tutoring places.

College students have many options for figuring out how to get course textbooks, they don't have to shell thousands of dollars. There are tons of options nowadays including buying used, working with an older edition, or renting in digital format, all of them being much cheaper than paying full price.

We are in the AAP forum, talking about mathnasium, and FCPS, right?

I know personally, in my AAP LLIV, they actually do work together a team. They collaborate and share not just within the grade but between grades, to cover the material needed. I thought that was the standard. But if you're saying that the teachers are loners, well.... I don't know if you ever taught in ES, but it doesn't work that way.

You still miss out on the fact that most of the curriculum and textbooks are digital too, so I'll just leave it as you are grasping straws here. The whole paper textbook thing is very backwards and outdated. What you see is just the tip of the iceberg of what the kids and teachers are actually doing.

As for college textbooks: you don't sound like a STEM graduate.

Yes, you can get them cheaper. Unless it's the new edition. Then it's hundreds of dollars per book. And you might even be sharing the dam thing. In fact, the college board suggests you set aside 1200 per year for textbooks. https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2019/3/6/18252322/college-textbooks-cost-expensive-pearson-cengage-mcgraw-hill And even then, you can get them cheaper, but really, it's still hundreds of dollars, and if you’re premed, thousands.

Anonymous wrote:I am probably one of the few lone voices in textbooks are over-rated camp, because IMHO, as a math and science engineer, textbooks are really effing over-rated. I can assure you that when you learn something from doing the problem vs. reading the example, the doing of the problem is more effective than the textbook. In fact there was a recent study from Harvard, that extensive usage from a textbook doesn't give improved results. (https://cepr.harvard.edu/files/cepr/files/cepr-curriculum-report_learning-by-the-book.pdf) And if we're talking stem: who remembers that cool chemistry experiment or dissecting that animal more than what was on page 15 of Gen. Chem.? I certainly don't remember anything from my textbooks, but math team problems: YES. Yes I do. And we're seeing that in a 3D learning advocacy in STEM because it provides deeper learning to learn the actual science in real life: (https://start-engineering.com/start-engineering-now/2018/12/6/teaching-stem-with-no-textbooks-why-ngss-makes-it-so-tempting)

My opinion of textbooks is that it's a backwards way of learning. And I'm not the only one with this view. Textbook publishers are going digital as well-- in order to teach our students at the pace that they are at. They have developed software to teach our kids math and all kinds of subjects that we don't see in school, and pace the education as needed. And as most kids respond very well to video games (oh the dopamine response is so very important vs. textbooks). They can even fill in the gaps and analyze what the kids need to learn individually: which your teacher can't do as quickly and by doing so can identify learning gaps and adjust for each kids needs. (https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/03/the-death-of-textbooks/387055/)

Teachers are seeing this too. "Textbooks are like crutches: although they may save you some pain, you''ll never truly run." (https://achievethecore.org/aligned/lessons-learned-after-teaching-without-a-textbook/) Teachers think that textbooks are not as robust and dynamic as needed in the ever evolving CC standards. But also, we're seeing that teachers are able to teach more without textbooks. I know for a lot of you, that's mind-boggling, but it's also a pre-conceived notion. Textbooks are the past. And usually, the white washed ones. (http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/finding_common_ground/2013/03/do_textbooks_still_have_a_place_in_schools.html)

And finally: I know a lot of you are like: WE NEED TEXTBOOKS!!!! My recent visit to my DD's school showed me where the textbooks are: on tablets and computers. Just because we don't see them, doesn't mean they're not there. They've just got AI working for a blended education. Which is great. I mean, honestly, some kids just open a textbook and their eyes glaze over. This is really engaging them and helping them.

Finally, if you don't want to read any of the informative links above, I leave you with this WAPO article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/class-struggle/post/why-our-textbooks-dont-work/2012/02/25/gIQAvI16ZR_blog.html Textbooks don’t work well. Research shows that with rare exceptions they do not help improve student achievement much. They are not effective because effectiveness doesn’t sell.


Remember: textbooks publishers, Kumon and Mathnasium, are FOR PROFIT CORPORATIONS. When your kids go to college and you're shelling out 2k for their textbooks, you too will be screaming the phrase: "Textbooks are effing overrated!" Because some of them are very expensive door stops.

This could work but it would require outstanding teachers who work together well as a team. From the same article where you quoted the "textbooks are like crutches", they also caution: "On the other hand, the overhead required to teach without a text can be high, and failing to commit fully can leave students in a worse position than if they had a textbook" I think the problem is that a lot of people feel that the teaching in the area is not as strong overall as the high school ratings suggest. While it's definitely true that many textbooks are overrated, in cases where a teacher cannot effectively teach with whatever materials they're using, a textbook can be a life saver for a kid who is confused in class. And we can agree that a school provided textbook that the kid and their parent could work together at home is a lot cheaper than having to go to Mathnasium, and other outside tutoring places.

College students have many options for figuring out how to get course textbooks, they don't have to shell thousands of dollars. There are tons of options nowadays including buying used, working with an older edition, or renting in digital format, all of them being much cheaper than paying full price.

I am probably one of the few lone voices in textbooks are over-rated camp, because IMHO, as a math and science engineer, textbooks are really effing over-rated. I can assure you that when you learn something from doing the problem vs. reading the example, the doing of the problem is more effective than the textbook. In fact there was a recent study from Harvard, that extensive usage from a textbook doesn't give improved results. (https://cepr.harvard.edu/files/cepr/files/cepr-curriculum-report_learning-by-the-book.pdf) And if we're talking stem: who remembers that cool chemistry experiment or dissecting that animal more than what was on page 15 of Gen. Chem.? I certainly don't remember anything from my textbooks, but math team problems: YES. Yes I do. And we're seeing that in a 3D learning advocacy in STEM because it provides deeper learning to learn the actual science in real life: (https://start-engineering.com/start-engineering-now/2018/12/6/teaching-stem-with-no-textbooks-why-ngss-makes-it-so-tempting)

My opinion of textbooks is that it's a backwards way of learning. And I'm not the only one with this view. Textbook publishers are going digital as well-- in order to teach our students at the pace that they are at. They have developed software to teach our kids math and all kinds of subjects that we don't see in school, and pace the education as needed. And as most kids respond very well to video games (oh the dopamine response is so very important vs. textbooks). They can even fill in the gaps and analyze what the kids need to learn individually: which your teacher can't do as quickly and by doing so can identify learning gaps and adjust for each kids needs. (https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/03/the-death-of-textbooks/387055/)

Teachers are seeing this too. "Textbooks are like crutches: although they may save you some pain, you''ll never truly run." (https://achievethecore.org/aligned/lessons-learned-after-teaching-without-a-textbook/) Teachers think that textbooks are not as robust and dynamic as needed in the ever evolving CC standards. But also, we're seeing that teachers are able to teach more without textbooks. I know for a lot of you, that's mind-boggling, but it's also a pre-conceived notion. Textbooks are the past. And usually, the white washed ones. (http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/finding_common_ground/2013/03/do_textbooks_still_have_a_place_in_schools.html)

And finally: I know a lot of you are like: WE NEED TEXTBOOKS!!!! My recent visit to my DD's school showed me where the textbooks are: on tablets and computers. Just because we don't see them, doesn't mean they're not there. They've just got AI working for a blended education. Which is great. I mean, honestly, some kids just open a textbook and their eyes glaze over. This is really engaging them and helping them.

Finally, if you don't want to read any of the informative links above, I leave you with this WAPO article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/class-struggle/post/why-our-textbooks-dont-work/2012/02/25/gIQAvI16ZR_blog.html Textbooks don’t work well. Research shows that with rare exceptions they do not help improve student achievement much. They are not effective because effectiveness doesn’t sell.


Remember: textbooks publishers, Kumon and Mathnasium, are FOR PROFIT CORPORATIONS. When your kids go to college and you're shelling out 2k for their textbooks, you too will be screaming the phrase: "Textbooks are effing overrated!" Because some of them are very expensive door stops.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Op here. I originally posted trying to gauge if sending kids to outside math enrichment was the norm. My kids are busy already and I did not want to mathnasium. This was more about my not wanting to drive kids than kids not wanting to do extra math. I don’t think they would mind. They do like math. They like it. After posting this, I have asked my kids about more details on what they are learning and it really does seem like disorganized chaos. Now I’m concerned whether they are getting the proper math foundation vs being advanced or not advanced within AAP.

You're in McLean, right? If you're at all close to Tysons, you should look into AoPS Academy. The classes there are what AAP math classes ought to be.

AoPS is awesome if the kid is motivated enough and capable of doing the work themselves. As a teacher there, I've found kids who were either unable/unprepared for what we teach, or more frequently, just uninterested in doing harder math outside of school because they're being pushed by parents.

Anonymous wrote:
Op here. I originally posted trying to gauge if sending kids to outside math enrichment was the norm. My kids are busy already and I did not want to mathnasium. This was more about my not wanting to drive kids than kids not wanting to do extra math. I don’t think they would mind. They do like math. They like it. After posting this, I have asked my kids about more details on what they are learning and it really does seem like disorganized chaos. Now I’m concerned whether they are getting the proper math foundation vs being advanced or not advanced within AAP.

You're in McLean, right? If you're at all close to Tysons, you should look into AoPS Academy. The classes there are what AAP math classes ought to be.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The mathnasium in McLean is their busiest location in the entire DC metro area, they are open for longer hours and open on Saturday as well, that tells you all you need to know. We moved to McLean past summer and my kids have been doing fine in Gen Ed and so far I have been going by let kids be kids but we are starting mathnesium in couple of weeks. I cannot tell you the kind of rigor their classmates are being put through, I gotta get mine ready to compete. Mine are 3rd graders and pretty good at math but I want to be solid and very good at it. My kids are not in AAP but my plan is 1 year of mathnasium and then AoPS.

BTW, I went their 2-3 times and every time they had majority white kids with a sprinkling of Asian, this myth of only Asians tutoring the kids is just a myth.

+1 My child has been attending Mathnasium in McLean for months now, and this has been my observation as well. Perhaps Kumon is more popular in the Asian community? I only say that because I've never known a white person to send their kid to Kumon, and the friends I have who have mentioned Kumon over the years are Asian.

I am an American born white woman, and I don't understand all the nasty things that are written about Asian families on this board.

it’s just jealousy.

It's the same like when you go to CogAT or other Prep Centers, you see majorities are white.

Pull up a 5th grade (or whatever) math worksheet online. Can your DC complete it? If so, then why mathnasium?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Ten minutes of direct instruction and then time doing a worksheet is math class. Whether the worksheet came out of a textbook or not isn't an issue. For all those people lamenting the quality of grade school math, they seem to be forgetting that it is grade school math.

So what should kids be doing the other 45 minutes of math class?

Also, whether the worksheet came out of a textbook or not is an issue. If there's a textbook, then lessons are taught in a coherent manner with logical sequencing and worked examples. The problem sets provided with textbooks flow naturally from the lesson and reinforce it. Worksheets downloaded from the internet often don't fully follow the lesson, don't do a great job of fully exploring the topic of study, don't provide a natural progression of easier to more challenging problems, and haven't gone through any quality control whatsoever. I'm surprised that anyone would think that a teacher could just cobble together free resources from the internet and end up with anything remotely akin to a textbook.

Grade school math has changed significantly in the last 30 years. Back in the day, we covered material more slowly, but also much more in depth. Classes had longer segments of whole class direct instruction, worktime, time to ask the teacher questions, having to present problems on the chalkboard, and so on. The entire class time was filled with learning.

In my kids' AAP center, they rotate through the game station, the computer station, the sudoku station, and things like that to waste time between sessions with the teacher. For the most part, they can't ask questions or clarifications, since the teacher is always busy with another group. Due to the station work, the class is a chaotic madhouse most of the time, and it's too noisy for kids to hear the teacher or concentrate. If the kids have questions, there's no textbook to turn to for answers. There's no consistency between the classes, since teachers in the same grade will cobble together their own internet resources. Most of these resources are poor quality and not a great fit for the lessons they are supposed to be learning. Math class is at best 25% class and 75% wasting time.

Totally agree. Random worksheets from different sources are like sub teachers, there are no consistency whatsoever. Do you want to be in a class taught by different teachers all the time?? Different worksheets were designed by different authors with different goals, teaching philosophy, problem-solving strategies, and formats. This lack of coherency is awful for any learner, but especially the beginners.

NP here. In my kid’s AAP center they have unqualified parents as math sub teachers. It is an advanced level of chaos.

Op here. I originally posted trying to gauge if sending kids to outside math enrichment was the norm. My kids are busy already and I did not want to mathnasium. This was more about my not wanting to drive kids than kids not wanting to do extra math. I don’t think they would mind. They do like math. They like it. After posting this, I have asked my kids about more details on what they are learning and it really does seem like disorganized chaos. Now I’m concerned whether they are getting the proper math foundation vs being advanced or not advanced within AAP.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Ten minutes of direct instruction and then time doing a worksheet is math class. Whether the worksheet came out of a textbook or not isn't an issue. For all those people lamenting the quality of grade school math, they seem to be forgetting that it is grade school math.

So what should kids be doing the other 45 minutes of math class?

Also, whether the worksheet came out of a textbook or not is an issue. If there's a textbook, then lessons are taught in a coherent manner with logical sequencing and worked examples. The problem sets provided with textbooks flow naturally from the lesson and reinforce it. Worksheets downloaded from the internet often don't fully follow the lesson, don't do a great job of fully exploring the topic of study, don't provide a natural progression of easier to more challenging problems, and haven't gone through any quality control whatsoever. I'm surprised that anyone would think that a teacher could just cobble together free resources from the internet and end up with anything remotely akin to a textbook.

Grade school math has changed significantly in the last 30 years. Back in the day, we covered material more slowly, but also much more in depth. Classes had longer segments of whole class direct instruction, worktime, time to ask the teacher questions, having to present problems on the chalkboard, and so on. The entire class time was filled with learning.

In my kids' AAP center, they rotate through the game station, the computer station, the sudoku station, and things like that to waste time between sessions with the teacher. For the most part, they can't ask questions or clarifications, since the teacher is always busy with another group. Due to the station work, the class is a chaotic madhouse most of the time, and it's too noisy for kids to hear the teacher or concentrate. If the kids have questions, there's no textbook to turn to for answers. There's no consistency between the classes, since teachers in the same grade will cobble together their own internet resources. Most of these resources are poor quality and not a great fit for the lessons they are supposed to be learning. Math class is at best 25% class and 75% wasting time.

Totally agree. Random worksheets from different sources are like sub teachers, there are no consistency whatsoever. Do you want to be in a class taught by different teachers all the time?? Different worksheets were designed by different authors with different goals, teaching philosophy, problem-solving strategies, and formats. This lack of coherency is awful for any learner, but especially the beginners.

NP here. In my kid’s AAP center they have unqualified parents as math sub teachers. It is an advanced level of chaos.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Ten minutes of direct instruction and then time doing a worksheet is math class. Whether the worksheet came out of a textbook or not isn't an issue. For all those people lamenting the quality of grade school math, they seem to be forgetting that it is grade school math.

So what should kids be doing the other 45 minutes of math class?

Also, whether the worksheet came out of a textbook or not is an issue. If there's a textbook, then lessons are taught in a coherent manner with logical sequencing and worked examples. The problem sets provided with textbooks flow naturally from the lesson and reinforce it. Worksheets downloaded from the internet often don't fully follow the lesson, don't do a great job of fully exploring the topic of study, don't provide a natural progression of easier to more challenging problems, and haven't gone through any quality control whatsoever. I'm surprised that anyone would think that a teacher could just cobble together free resources from the internet and end up with anything remotely akin to a textbook.

Grade school math has changed significantly in the last 30 years. Back in the day, we covered material more slowly, but also much more in depth. Classes had longer segments of whole class direct instruction, worktime, time to ask the teacher questions, having to present problems on the chalkboard, and so on. The entire class time was filled with learning.

In my kids' AAP center, they rotate through the game station, the computer station, the sudoku station, and things like that to waste time between sessions with the teacher. For the most part, they can't ask questions or clarifications, since the teacher is always busy with another group. Due to the station work, the class is a chaotic madhouse most of the time, and it's too noisy for kids to hear the teacher or concentrate. If the kids have questions, there's no textbook to turn to for answers. There's no consistency between the classes, since teachers in the same grade will cobble together their own internet resources. Most of these resources are poor quality and not a great fit for the lessons they are supposed to be learning. Math class is at best 25% class and 75% wasting time.

That sounds like hell. Poor teachers. Imagine the stress of being forced to create 2x the content to get half of the results.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Ten minutes of direct instruction and then time doing a worksheet is math class. Whether the worksheet came out of a textbook or not isn't an issue. For all those people lamenting the quality of grade school math, they seem to be forgetting that it is grade school math.

So what should kids be doing the other 45 minutes of math class?

Also, whether the worksheet came out of a textbook or not is an issue. If there's a textbook, then lessons are taught in a coherent manner with logical sequencing and worked examples. The problem sets provided with textbooks flow naturally from the lesson and reinforce it. Worksheets downloaded from the internet often don't fully follow the lesson, don't do a great job of fully exploring the topic of study, don't provide a natural progression of easier to more challenging problems, and haven't gone through any quality control whatsoever. I'm surprised that anyone would think that a teacher could just cobble together free resources from the internet and end up with anything remotely akin to a textbook.

Grade school math has changed significantly in the last 30 years. Back in the day, we covered material more slowly, but also much more in depth. Classes had longer segments of whole class direct instruction, worktime, time to ask the teacher questions, having to present problems on the chalkboard, and so on. The entire class time was filled with learning.

In my kids' AAP center, they rotate through the game station, the computer station, the sudoku station, and things like that to waste time between sessions with the teacher. For the most part, they can't ask questions or clarifications, since the teacher is always busy with another group. Due to the station work, the class is a chaotic madhouse most of the time, and it's too noisy for kids to hear the teacher or concentrate. If the kids have questions, there's no textbook to turn to for answers. There's no consistency between the classes, since teachers in the same grade will cobble together their own internet resources. Most of these resources are poor quality and not a great fit for the lessons they are supposed to be learning. Math class is at best 25% class and 75% wasting time.

Totally agree. Random worksheets from different sources are like sub teachers, there are no consistency whatsoever. Do you want to be in a class taught by different teachers all the time?? Different worksheets were designed by different authors with different goals, teaching philosophy, problem-solving strategies, and formats. This lack of coherency is awful for any learner, but especially the beginners.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The “US is terrible at teaching math” is just an excuse, one of a few I’ve heard, to spend money and make your 6yo sit and do extra math two nights a week.

I’ve lived in other countries. My kids have gone to their schools. It’s all the same. FWIW people in those other countries send their kids to kumon too.

and mathnasium

I’ve lived in other countries with less monetary resources but more qualified teachers willing to teach. None of those countries had Kumon, Mathnasium, or the others. Families spent more time outdoors and kids were more focused and welcoming in school. Parents were not harassing fellow parents with donations for school staff. The adm was very effective without receiving discretionary funds.

Good to know.

I’m glad you are learning. Time to put the knowledge to work and to make a better school system.