Honestly, the academic standards in America are so low nowadays, compared even to when I was growing up in the public schools one generation ago.

Thank no child left behind.

You almost have to take it upon yourself as a parent to teach your kids ahead of the current "grade level" curricular standards if you want them to be well prepared to be a global citizen and be able to participate in a meaningful way in the 21st first century economy.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Whatever. Just keep pushing your kids. Make sure they are a full year ahead at math. It doesn’t matter. Our kids will end up making the same salary in 20, 30, 40 years from now.
Push push push. It’s all the same.
Your kid is a year ahead? They have a 4.6 gpa?
Cool beans
See that kid over there? He’s got a 3.8.
Those kids will have remarkably similar outcomes.
None of this matters.

It’s totally fine that some kids crave a challenge. Let then have it. Hopefully they will also be well rounded. Do what you can.
Just don’t expect exponentially different outcomes.

Why are you so fixated on math? You seem to have some bizarre strawman that there are a lot of kids cramming for hours every day on math to get ahead one grade level because they need to be the best. That simply isn't happening. I know a lot of math superstars and a lot of kids who are taking Algebra I in 6th. They are all doing extracurricular math, but only 2-3 hours per week. It's hardly mentally torturous, and they all have plenty of time for other activities. The overwhelming majority of those kids are doing extra math because they love math and find the regular school math lacking. It seems like you're creating some bizarre fantasy about people cramming to ridiculous extents in math to justify why your kid isn't the best. You can't accept that your kid isn't as bright as you think he is, and instead have to assume that all of the kids who are better are attending cram school.

Also, do you think parents aren't pushing their kids absurdly hard in travel soccer, elite gymnastics, or violin? Do you think the kids are somehow immune to the stress and pressure of their parents expectations when it's non-academic? Do you see kids as "well rounded" when they single-mindedly focus on one activity that is not academics? My parenting philosophy is similar to yours, in that we aim for being jacks of all trades, master of none. I don't think there's anything intrinsically wrong with the parents and kids who pursue excellence in one area rather than well-roundedness, though. Their kids will be better than mine in that area of focus, and good for them! I still don't see why I should care or grumble about the way other people are parenting.

I think parents pushing their kids in soccer have zero impact on classroom culture and curriculum. Same with violin etc. And I’m not fixated on math or science for that matter. I’m responding in the few minutes I have between actually parenting my kid.

Anonymous wrote:Whatever. Just keep pushing your kids. Make sure they are a full year ahead at math. It doesn’t matter. Our kids will end up making the same salary in 20, 30, 40 years from now.
Push push push. It’s all the same.
Your kid is a year ahead? They have a 4.6 gpa?
Cool beans
See that kid over there? He’s got a 3.8.
Those kids will have remarkably similar outcomes.
None of this matters.

It’s totally fine that some kids crave a challenge. Let then have it. Hopefully they will also be well rounded. Do what you can.
Just don’t expect exponentially different outcomes.

Why are you so fixated on math? You seem to have some bizarre strawman that there are a lot of kids cramming for hours every day on math to get ahead one grade level because they need to be the best. That simply isn't happening. I know a lot of math superstars and a lot of kids who are taking Algebra I in 6th. They are all doing extracurricular math, but only 2-3 hours per week. It's hardly mentally torturous, and they all have plenty of time for other activities. The overwhelming majority of those kids are doing extra math because they love math and find the regular school math lacking. It seems like you're creating some bizarre fantasy about people cramming to ridiculous extents in math to justify why your kid isn't the best. You can't accept that your kid isn't as bright as you think he is, and instead have to assume that all of the kids who are better are attending cram school.

Also, do you think parents aren't pushing their kids absurdly hard in travel soccer, elite gymnastics, or violin? Do you think the kids are somehow immune to the stress and pressure of their parents expectations when it's non-academic? Do you see kids as "well rounded" when they single-mindedly focus on one activity that is not academics? My parenting philosophy is similar to yours, in that we aim for being jacks of all trades, master of none. I don't think there's anything intrinsically wrong with the parents and kids who pursue excellence in one area rather than well-roundedness, though. Their kids will be better than mine in that area of focus, and good for them! I still don't see why I should care or grumble about the way other people are parenting.

Anonymous wrote:Whatever. Just keep pushing your kids. Make sure they are a full year ahead at math. It doesn’t matter. Our kids will end up making the same salary in 20, 30, 40 years from now.
Push push push. It’s all the same.
Your kid is a year ahead? They have a 4.6 gpa?
Cool beans
See that kid over there? He’s got a 3.8.
Those kids will have remarkably similar outcomes.
None of this matters.

It’s totally fine that some kids crave a challenge. Let then have it. Hopefully they will also be well rounded. Do what you can.
Just don’t expect exponentially different outcomes.

DP... I don't see anyone saying they think their kid will make oodles more than your kid. I think Asian Americans know that we have to have outperform academically in order to get into colleges like even UMD College Park, good school, but not even top tier. That's the hurdle we are facing.

BTW, my kids have never gone to a prep type class, ever. They had Singapore math workbooks when they were in ES, which they did off and on. I never had a set time for them to do it. My one DC is now in a magnet, and this DC actually hardly ever did the Singapore math workbook. I ended up giving it to DC#2, who does it.. well, I can't even remember the last time DC cracked open that workbook. Both kids are a year ahead in math.

I used to also judge parents for sending their kids to after school tutoring, but you know what? I don't so much anymore. As long as the kid does other things and has some free time to socialize, why is it such a big deal if they spend a couple of hours every week in a cram school. What else should they do with those hours? Play on their computers? That's why my DC#1 does... too much of it. Sometimes I think about putting DC#1 in after school tutoring, but I don't because it's not a priority for me. I do make sure DC does other things, though.

I don't agree with pushing kids too hard in anything, be it sports or academics. I've seen some parents in the magnet program want their children to be two, three years ahead in math. I don't know if their kid is actually a math whiz or they are just pushy. I've also seen parents push their kids in sports, and I don't know if the kid wants it more than the parents sometimes or vice versa.

A child doing only sports is not well rounded, just as a child who only knows academics is not well rounded.

Anonymous wrote:

physical activity is important, but doing an organized physical activity is not

+100 My son loves soccer and I'm glad he does it because he enjoys it. I am under NO delusion that his soccer team experience is a life building skill and he should be guaranteed a C-suite job because of this.

The focus on sports is a throw back to the old tradition of the rich white guy that played on the football team, was a football star and then became CEO or senior level of a company. While most of these guys ended up selling mattresses, the stories of the congressmen or CEO's reminiscing about how their football days gave them the leadership skills to succeed created a powerful myth that fools still buy into today.

White parents see sports as a path into popularity and success. It may have been this way in the manufacturing and managerial era but not in the Information Age. Nerds rule now.

Actually, nerds who are academically successful and athletically successful rule. Sorry.

Whatever. Just keep pushing your kids. Make sure they are a full year ahead at math. It doesn’t matter. Our kids will end up making the same salary in 20, 30, 40 years from now.
Push push push. It’s all the same.
Your kid is a year ahead? They have a 4.6 gpa?
Cool beans
See that kid over there? He’s got a 3.8.
Those kids will have remarkably similar outcomes.
None of this matters.

It’s totally fine that some kids crave a challenge. Let then have it. Hopefully they will also be well rounded. Do what you can.
Just don’t expect exponentially different outcomes.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

We seem to be perfectly fine with this in athletics. No one complains when the star athlete practices two hours every day. In fact, we idolize him and shower him with praise for talent and hard work.

The point is that athletics is different from school work. A child or teen spends all day in school, and then they go out on to the athletic field and do something different from what they’ve been doing all day. A child who spends all day in school and then sends the after school hours in outside academic classes or tutoring is simply doing more of the same, not expanding knowledge into a completely different area than academics.

The children who excel in school and in a more physical activity are developing lives with many different facets. They have a foundation to build an adult life as a strong and healthy person who can win and lose as part of a team and be just as successful academically. Kids who can excel in school while spending their after school hours in non academic pursuits are sought after by colleges who want students who can be successful and contribute in a number of different areas.

That's fine for you, and your family. The equivalent would be me complaining that PE classes need to be dumbed down more for my kid because yours is so athletic.

That actually would not be the equivalent since PE classes are not particularly challenging or difficult for most kids. The point is that it is better for the development of most kids to be exposed to a variety of activities. Kids do better overall when their after school time is spent on non academic activities (unless they’re having trouble keeping up in school, of course). Spending all day in school and then doing more school after school does not lead to growth in a variety of areas for a child.

I have a kid at a HYPSM school in a STEM major, and many of the kids are lacking in physical fitness. These are incredibly smart kids, but they need to learn to take care of the health of their bodies while engaged in academics.

Kids need to learn from an early age to do both. Spending after school time doing athletic activities helps them to learn to balance academics with developing strength and physical fitness. A bonus is that physical fitness helps with better mental health, too.

physical activity is important, but doing an organized physical activity is not

So, a kid who goes to the playground after school for an hour, then goes to a math tutoring program for an hour is not healthy but a kid who goes to 2 hours of football practice after school is healthy. Even if the former kid is considered healthy by their pediatrician, those parents are clearing stunting their child's growth.

After all the recent studies about CTE in football players, you can't seriously say that football is a healthy way to get physical activity.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

physical activity is important, but doing an organized physical activity is not

+100 My son loves soccer and I'm glad he does it because he enjoys it. I am under NO delusion that his soccer team experience is a life building skill and he should be guaranteed a C-suite job because of this.

The focus on sports is a throw back to the old tradition of the rich white guy that played on the football team, was a football star and then became CEO or senior level of a company. While most of these guys ended up selling mattresses, the stories of the congressmen or CEO's reminiscing about how their football days gave them the leadership skills to succeed created a powerful myth that fools still buy into today.

White parents see sports as a path into popularity and success. It may have been this way in the manufacturing and managerial era but not in the Information Age. Nerds rule now.

Yes! I see this all the time. Most parents have a desire for their child to be part of a group, and sports is the way to do it.

So sports is the only way to do it. Those who have their kids compete on Math Team, Quiz Bowl, Robotics teams don't count and their kids should be encouraged not to excel in their competition of choice because some families feel that their children are disadvantaged by families who choose to tutor their children outside of school.

Right.

I think that families complaining about outside tutoring need to get used to the fact that their bright but lazy students are middle-tracked instead of fast tracked in school. If they want to choose to balance their child's life without any outside academic tutoring, that's fine, but does not guarantee them anything beyond the standard middle track schooling.

Anonymous wrote:

physical activity is important, but doing an organized physical activity is not

+100 My son loves soccer and I'm glad he does it because he enjoys it. I am under NO delusion that his soccer team experience is a life building skill and he should be guaranteed a C-suite job because of this.

The focus on sports is a throw back to the old tradition of the rich white guy that played on the football team, was a football star and then became CEO or senior level of a company. While most of these guys ended up selling mattresses, the stories of the congressmen or CEO's reminiscing about how their football days gave them the leadership skills to succeed created a powerful myth that fools still buy into today.

White parents see sports as a path into popularity and success. It may have been this way in the manufacturing and managerial era but not in the Information Age. Nerds rule now.

Yes! I see this all the time. Most parents have a desire for their child to be part of a group, and sports is the way to do it.

physical activity is important, but doing an organized physical activity is not

+100 My son loves soccer and I'm glad he does it because he enjoys it. I am under NO delusion that his soccer team experience is a life building skill and he should be guaranteed a C-suite job because of this.

The focus on sports is a throw back to the old tradition of the rich white guy that played on the football team, was a football star and then became CEO or senior level of a company. While most of these guys ended up selling mattresses, the stories of the congressmen or CEO's reminiscing about how their football days gave them the leadership skills to succeed created a powerful myth that fools still buy into today.

White parents see sports as a path into popularity and success. It may have been this way in the manufacturing and managerial era but not in the Information Age. Nerds rule now.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

We seem to be perfectly fine with this in athletics. No one complains when the star athlete practices two hours every day. In fact, we idolize him and shower him with praise for talent and hard work.

The point is that athletics is different from school work. A child or teen spends all day in school, and then they go out on to the athletic field and do something different from what they’ve been doing all day. A child who spends all day in school and then sends the after school hours in outside academic classes or tutoring is simply doing more of the same, not expanding knowledge into a completely different area than academics.

The children who excel in school and in a more physical activity are developing lives with many different facets. They have a foundation to build an adult life as a strong and healthy person who can win and lose as part of a team and be just as successful academically. Kids who can excel in school while spending their after school hours in non academic pursuits are sought after by colleges who want students who can be successful and contribute in a number of different areas.

That's fine for you, and your family. The equivalent would be me complaining that PE classes need to be dumbed down more for my kid because yours is so athletic.

That actually would not be the equivalent since PE classes are not particularly challenging or difficult for most kids. The point is that it is better for the development of most kids to be exposed to a variety of activities. Kids do better overall when their after school time is spent on non academic activities (unless they’re having trouble keeping up in school, of course). Spending all day in school and then doing more school after school does not lead to growth in a variety of areas for a child.

I have a kid at a HYPSM school in a STEM major, and many of the kids are lacking in physical fitness. These are incredibly smart kids, but they need to learn to take care of the health of their bodies while engaged in academics.

Kids need to learn from an early age to do both. Spending after school time doing athletic activities helps them to learn to balance academics with developing strength and physical fitness. A bonus is that physical fitness helps with better mental health, too.

physical activity is important, but doing an organized physical activity is not

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

We seem to be perfectly fine with this in athletics. No one complains when the star athlete practices two hours every day. In fact, we idolize him and shower him with praise for talent and hard work.

The point is that athletics is different from school work. A child or teen spends all day in school, and then they go out on to the athletic field and do something different from what they’ve been doing all day. A child who spends all day in school and then sends the after school hours in outside academic classes or tutoring is simply doing more of the same, not expanding knowledge into a completely different area than academics.

The children who excel in school and in a more physical activity are developing lives with many different facets. They have a foundation to build an adult life as a strong and healthy person who can win and lose as part of a team and be just as successful academically. Kids who can excel in school while spending their after school hours in non academic pursuits are sought after by colleges who want students who can be successful and contribute in a number of different areas.

That's fine for you, and your family. The equivalent would be me complaining that PE classes need to be dumbed down more for my kid because yours is so athletic.

That actually would not be the equivalent since PE classes are not particularly challenging or difficult for most kids. The point is that it is better for the development of most kids to be exposed to a variety of activities. Kids do better overall when their after school time is spent on non academic activities (unless they’re having trouble keeping up in school, of course). Spending all day in school and then doing more school after school does not lead to growth in a variety of areas for a child.

I have a kid at a HYPSM school in a STEM major, and many of the kids are lacking in physical fitness. These are incredibly smart kids, but they need to learn to take care of the health of their bodies while engaged in academics.

Kids need to learn from an early age to do both. Spending after school time doing athletic activities helps them to learn to balance academics with developing strength and physical fitness. A bonus is that physical fitness helps with better mental health, too.

Anonymous wrote:There is so much math phobia in this thread. Larlo does travel sports and spends 3 hours/night on his sport. That's great! Carla is an elite pianist and practices 2 hours every day. Awesome! Larla is a bookwork who reads for hours after school every day. Bob takes art classes and draws all of the time. Sally is in a chess club and spends a ton of time practicing for tournaments. Billy is spending an hour every night learning to speak German. All of these are great! Chloe takes a single math enrichment class, and collectively everyone clutches their pearls and starts grumbling about ruining childhood, too much pressure, and those damn strivers. Nobody grumbles that any of the other kids worked too hard, didn't truly earn their advanced status, and shouldn't be given advanced opportunities. They only do so for math.

It seems like the parents grumbling about the striver culture think that no kids could possibly love math and that math is the one and only activity that is not acceptable for after school classes or enrichment. People here seem to think that kids should be placed according to their level of advancement in everything except math. In math, working harder and being more advanced = cheating and stealing the glory from the kids who are naturally more brilliant.

exactly.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
On one hand it’s unfair for UMC parents to tsk tsk the practice of hot housing academics on young kids. They have less to worry about as far as maintaining their child’s class status. But in this case they are right. No expert in education thinks pushing down academics is a good thing. The idea that kids should go to 8 hours of school and then do academics afterward isn’t an education ideal. The Asian communities that do this are a disaster and no one would say otherwise.

This is a huge exaggeration though for elementary aged kids. None of them are attending hours of schooling each night. Most of them are maybe doing a couple enrichment classes for only a few hours total per week. It's just not as big of a deal as you're making it out to be. Also, elementary kids are not going to 8 hours of school each day. They're doing fewer than 7 hours, and by the time you account for lunch, recess, specials, and the rest, they're doing only about 3.5 hours of academics per day.

No. Try 5.
Let’s at least have an honest conversation here.

I'm looking directly at my kid's schedule. They spend 1 hour on math, 1 hour on Social Studies or Science, and 1.5 hours on Language arts. The rest of the day is filled with specials, lunch, recess, morning meeting, "quiet time", pack up time, and so on. There really are only 3.5 hours of academics in a 6 hour, 45 minute schooldays (FCPS school)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What is all this pressure you talk of? Many elementary schools have no HW or minimal HW. Schools bend of backward to reduce workload. Effort, not results, is emphasized. Homework is typically not graded for my middle schooler.

It is very different than it was five years ago.

That’s all good. But there are schools in the DMV and beyond where students are learning next year’s math outside of school and then lobbying the administration for a subject acceleration. When more and more kids do this it changes the culture of the school.

There should definitely be no pressure in elementary school. I’m not seeing that when 5 kids in 6th grade are selected to take Algebra I in 6th grade—not because they are brilliant or gifted but because they studied for hundreds of hours outside school and and prepped for tests most parents have no clue exist.
When a school does this it condones the pressure put on these kids outside of school and encourages other families to follow suit. Typically it’s not UMC white families that feel the pressure to “be the best” but rather the less wealthy and 1st or 2nd generation immigrants who feel this anxiety.

On one hand it’s unfair for UMC parents to tsk tsk the practice of hot housing academics on young kids. They have less to worry about as far as maintaining their child’s class status. But in this case they are right. No expert in education thinks pushing down academics is a good thing. The idea that kids should go to 8 hours of school and then do academics afterward isn’t an education ideal. The Asian communities that do this are a disaster and no one would say otherwise.

Oh PUL-eeze! If your kid were put in the top reading group or a math pullout, you'd be gloating about how they are "naturally advanced." You resent the kids taking algebra in 6th grade because it makes your own kid look behind or (gasp) average. This is 100% about your insecurity.

Yes, I hate to say it, but I agree. If a student can work at a higher level then the school should allow that. No child should be held back!