Anonymous
06/17/2019 21:51
Subject: Re:Estrangement Doesn't Just Happen to "Bad" Moms—It Happened to Me Too
Anonymous wrote:I read this article and the reddit thread, and it isn’t really clear to me who estranged who here. It sounds like the author and her son had a conflict and neither one wants to be the one who backs down, so things escalated. She threatened not to come to the wedding, he doesn’t know why. He called her bluff and forced her hand, she doesn’t know why he didn’t beg her to go. She called all of the relatives to explain why she wasn’t going and said they “could probably still go.” He wasn’t close enough with any of them that they came anyway or saw through her BS.
She knows where he lives (he is renting a house from her), but she doesn’t stop by. He knows where she lives and doesn’t stop by either. She sees him in the grocery store and says nothing. He doesn’t say anything either. She sends a text, he responds right away. Neither of them continue the texting conversation. They see each other to hand over keys. Both are cold and distant.
Neither attempts to visit the other for 4.5 years.
The more I type here, the more I wonder of this “estrangement” is actually a sideways, roundabout way for mother and son to continue an intense, unhealthy relationship. I am not saying that about every estrangement, but maybe this one. I mean, both of these people seem to spend a ton of time focused on their relationship with each other. Also, which gives you the bigger feels, your adult child coming to visit for Christmas, or your adult child NOT coming to Christmas because you are “estranged.” I am not saying which feels better, but in terms of quantity and emotional energy, the not coming is bigger. I am willing to bet that the family spends more time talking about Dan when he is not there than they would spend talking to him if they all had a typical parent/child relationship. Worse yet, it would actually be every other Christmas because holidays would be split with the in-laws. So, if you are in an enmeshed relationship with your son, and he gets married and starts to form his own family, and the thought of him leaving you feels like abandonment and feels intolerable, what do you do? Do you go to therapy and learn to live with every other Christmas where his attention is split between you and five other people, or do you create this estrangement and make sure that you are a big part of his thoughts every Christmas? (Bonus: you get to justify having him be the center of your thoughts as well). The price is that you never actually get to see him.
But I can imagine that for a certain type of person, it might be worth it. It’s worth never getting to see your mother, never getting to see your son, in exchange for the knowledge that they are always thinking about you. That you, as the estranged son, are more important than all of the other siblings. Your mom wrote a book about you! That you, as the estranged mom are more important than the in-laws. Again, I am not saying that this is true for every estranged relationship.
whoa. I realize you wrote this months ago, but it is very insightful! although the fact is that sometimes estrangement legit is the way to end an unhealthy relationship, I see a lot of truth in what you wrote both from my own behavior and that of others.
Anonymous
06/17/2019 21:44
Subject: Estrangement Doesn't Just Happen to "Bad" Moms—It Happened to Me Too
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:If my adult son wanted to propose to someone in a Disneyland theme park (!) I would cut him off right then and there, and never look back.
Because you wouid consider it a bad reflection on your parenting? How odd to end a relationship over something that has absolutely nothing to do with you.
Have you ever heard of sarcasm?
Anonymous
06/17/2019 02:26
Subject: Estrangement Doesn't Just Happen to "Bad" Moms—It Happened to Me Too
Was searching for some resources to cope emotionally with being estranged from my parents on Father's Day. Finding this dumb bitch nmom's article ruined my night; and dashed some of the hope that my own parents have reacted to our estrangement with anything other than digging in.
Yes, it is certainly *possible* that an estrangement between parents and an adult child is as much, or more, the fault of the child than the parent. But in this particular case, the parent's obvious personality disorder is just clearly written over the article (and presumably, the book). Depressing and unsettling.
- parent and regular reader of dcurbanmom, surprised to find this thread here
Yes, it is certainly *possible* that an estrangement between parents and an adult child is as much, or more, the fault of the child than the parent. But in this particular case, the parent's obvious personality disorder is just clearly written over the article (and presumably, the book). Depressing and unsettling.
- parent and regular reader of dcurbanmom, surprised to find this thread here
Anonymous
03/25/2019 04:13
Subject: Re:Estrangement Doesn't Just Happen to "Bad" Moms—It Happened to Me Too
I read this article and the reddit thread, and it isn’t really clear to me who estranged who here. It sounds like the author and her son had a conflict and neither one wants to be the one who backs down, so things escalated. She threatened not to come to the wedding, he doesn’t know why. He called her bluff and forced her hand, she doesn’t know why he didn’t beg her to go. She called all of the relatives to explain why she wasn’t going and said they “could probably still go.” He wasn’t close enough with any of them that they came anyway or saw through her BS.
She knows where he lives (he is renting a house from her), but she doesn’t stop by. He knows where she lives and doesn’t stop by either. She sees him in the grocery store and says nothing. He doesn’t say anything either. She sends a text, he responds right away. Neither of them continue the texting conversation. They see each other to hand over keys. Both are cold and distant.
Neither attempts to visit the other for 4.5 years.
The more I type here, the more I wonder of this “estrangement” is actually a sideways, roundabout way for mother and son to continue an intense, unhealthy relationship. I am not saying that about every estrangement, but maybe this one. I mean, both of these people seem to spend a ton of time focused on their relationship with each other. Also, which gives you the bigger feels, your adult child coming to visit for Christmas, or your adult child NOT coming to Christmas because you are “estranged.” I am not saying which feels better, but in terms of quantity and emotional energy, the not coming is bigger. I am willing to bet that the family spends more time talking about Dan when he is not there than they would spend talking to him if they all had a typical parent/child relationship. Worse yet, it would actually be every other Christmas because holidays would be split with the in-laws. So, if you are in an enmeshed relationship with your son, and he gets married and starts to form his own family, and the thought of him leaving you feels like abandonment and feels intolerable, what do you do? Do you go to therapy and learn to live with every other Christmas where his attention is split between you and five other people, or do you create this estrangement and make sure that you are a big part of his thoughts every Christmas? (Bonus: you get to justify having him be the center of your thoughts as well). The price is that you never actually get to see him.
But I can imagine that for a certain type of person, it might be worth it. It’s worth never getting to see your mother, never getting to see your son, in exchange for the knowledge that they are always thinking about you. That you, as the estranged son, are more important than all of the other siblings. Your mom wrote a book about you! That you, as the estranged mom are more important than the in-laws. Again, I am not saying that this is true for every estranged relationship.
She knows where he lives (he is renting a house from her), but she doesn’t stop by. He knows where she lives and doesn’t stop by either. She sees him in the grocery store and says nothing. He doesn’t say anything either. She sends a text, he responds right away. Neither of them continue the texting conversation. They see each other to hand over keys. Both are cold and distant.
Neither attempts to visit the other for 4.5 years.
The more I type here, the more I wonder of this “estrangement” is actually a sideways, roundabout way for mother and son to continue an intense, unhealthy relationship. I am not saying that about every estrangement, but maybe this one. I mean, both of these people seem to spend a ton of time focused on their relationship with each other. Also, which gives you the bigger feels, your adult child coming to visit for Christmas, or your adult child NOT coming to Christmas because you are “estranged.” I am not saying which feels better, but in terms of quantity and emotional energy, the not coming is bigger. I am willing to bet that the family spends more time talking about Dan when he is not there than they would spend talking to him if they all had a typical parent/child relationship. Worse yet, it would actually be every other Christmas because holidays would be split with the in-laws. So, if you are in an enmeshed relationship with your son, and he gets married and starts to form his own family, and the thought of him leaving you feels like abandonment and feels intolerable, what do you do? Do you go to therapy and learn to live with every other Christmas where his attention is split between you and five other people, or do you create this estrangement and make sure that you are a big part of his thoughts every Christmas? (Bonus: you get to justify having him be the center of your thoughts as well). The price is that you never actually get to see him.
But I can imagine that for a certain type of person, it might be worth it. It’s worth never getting to see your mother, never getting to see your son, in exchange for the knowledge that they are always thinking about you. That you, as the estranged son, are more important than all of the other siblings. Your mom wrote a book about you! That you, as the estranged mom are more important than the in-laws. Again, I am not saying that this is true for every estranged relationship.
Anonymous
03/24/2019 18:34
Subject: Estrangement Doesn't Just Happen to "Bad" Moms—It Happened to Me Too
NP. Wading into this pit.
Can we stop the fighting and agree that there are plenty of crazies out there on both sides? Every crazy MIL out there was once probably an equally crazy DIL herself. Narcissism exists in the young and old. For every justified estrangement there are probably a good proportion of crazy jerks who manipulated their spouses or children to mistreat another who didn’t deserve it?
As for me - I have the “crazy mother.” Yes, we are estranged. Yes, it was gut wrenching to do and a move I made when I became pregnant with my first and felt I needed to protect her. I spent years lingering in guilt out of concern for her when she gave less than two sh*ts about me growing up. But from past experiences with her I had the small, nagging worry that she is capable of hurting something I loved to hurt me (a pet in the past), and no amount of guilt was going to outweigh even the smallest risk that she would do the same to my children. Like so many other stories, she has “no idea” why I’m so “angry” with her or that I am “so bitter.” Despite the fact that I’ve spent hours and hours as a teen and young adult trying to get her to “understand” or the emails I’ve sent near the end explaining what I am doing. She’s a complete, innocent, clueless victim and I did it out of the blue, etc.
On the other hand, my husband’s brother is married to an extremely (I believe) anxious woman who takes out this unresolved mental issue on everyone around her. I’ve been on the receiving end of her rage even as a bystander. I’ve never seen anything like it. I’ve seen our MIL (she passed several years ago) walking on eggshells around her so as to not “lose access” to the grandchild, etc. MIL always did maintain a relationship with DIL before she died unexpectedly, but I can see how it could have blown up due to DIL’s crazy.
Flame away.
Can we stop the fighting and agree that there are plenty of crazies out there on both sides? Every crazy MIL out there was once probably an equally crazy DIL herself. Narcissism exists in the young and old. For every justified estrangement there are probably a good proportion of crazy jerks who manipulated their spouses or children to mistreat another who didn’t deserve it?
As for me - I have the “crazy mother.” Yes, we are estranged. Yes, it was gut wrenching to do and a move I made when I became pregnant with my first and felt I needed to protect her. I spent years lingering in guilt out of concern for her when she gave less than two sh*ts about me growing up. But from past experiences with her I had the small, nagging worry that she is capable of hurting something I loved to hurt me (a pet in the past), and no amount of guilt was going to outweigh even the smallest risk that she would do the same to my children. Like so many other stories, she has “no idea” why I’m so “angry” with her or that I am “so bitter.” Despite the fact that I’ve spent hours and hours as a teen and young adult trying to get her to “understand” or the emails I’ve sent near the end explaining what I am doing. She’s a complete, innocent, clueless victim and I did it out of the blue, etc.
On the other hand, my husband’s brother is married to an extremely (I believe) anxious woman who takes out this unresolved mental issue on everyone around her. I’ve been on the receiving end of her rage even as a bystander. I’ve never seen anything like it. I’ve seen our MIL (she passed several years ago) walking on eggshells around her so as to not “lose access” to the grandchild, etc. MIL always did maintain a relationship with DIL before she died unexpectedly, but I can see how it could have blown up due to DIL’s crazy.
Flame away.
Anonymous
03/10/2019 19:31
Subject: Estrangement Doesn't Just Happen to "Bad" Moms—It Happened to Me Too
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote: I'm also a mom who has an estranged ds. I have several other children, also. Ds is married.
Like the author of the article, the trouble began when the ds married. Unfortunately, dil has some signifigent mental health issues. Ds likely does as well, his biological father did so sometimes that happens.
One example of this is-their first Christmas, they were in temporary housing for college, and I got her a nice present for her beloved pet. In fact, I drove a long distance to purchase this-with my own then-newborn baby along-knowing that they had limited space and finances. Plus, they had mentioned this item for the pet and I was excited to buy it for her.
I then got a phone call from ds, questioning why I had gotten a present for pet and not dil? I could hear her in the backround of this call. I really did not know what to say.
They distanced themselves after this, and I am fine with that. Unlike the lady in the article, I'm not too upset, and I realize the problem is not with me-it's their mental illnesses. I can't take ownership of that.
I told the other kids (all young adults except for the little one) they of course can have any relationship they want with ds. One talks occasionally, the others choose none. I do not allow any contact with the little one-I won't expose the child to the mental illness.
I'm ok with the estrangement and don't mind how it is now. I ensured that ds had a good childhood and education and did my job well. Life goes on!
What are the “mental illnesses”? Have they been diagnosed by a licensed professional?
Hers have been, to my understanding. I've never asked about specifics though. Him, other than a visit to the school pyschologist after an incident with another student, hasn't seen one-although I don't know about since the estrangement.
For the record, not that it matters because anonymous-2 'baby daddies', married to no.2 for over twenty years now.
Anonymous
03/10/2019 11:01
Subject: Estrangement Doesn't Just Happen to "Bad" Moms—It Happened to Me Too
It’s so hard when mental illness strikes a family. I was so close with my brother growing up but as he reached his 20s he grew stranger and more hateful.
At first it seemed like his wife was the problem. She didn’t like our family. She’s not the nicest.
But she is not him. He is responsible for his own actions. For some reason he hates my husband although he never met him until we were married 10 years. DH is a kind person and great husband and father.
I’ve tried with him but it just doesn’t work. He has “investigated “ my DH many times and reported his “misdeeds”. DH is a public person so that’s a google search.
He takes bits and pieces of that public info and twists it into a hateful tale. His kids emigrated to a foreign country.
The final straw was him screaming “I (me) killed our mother !” Ouch.
He has a severe anger management issue but I’m not the receptacle of his rage. He lives in a bizarre fantasy world.
At first it seemed like his wife was the problem. She didn’t like our family. She’s not the nicest.
But she is not him. He is responsible for his own actions. For some reason he hates my husband although he never met him until we were married 10 years. DH is a kind person and great husband and father.
I’ve tried with him but it just doesn’t work. He has “investigated “ my DH many times and reported his “misdeeds”. DH is a public person so that’s a google search.
He takes bits and pieces of that public info and twists it into a hateful tale. His kids emigrated to a foreign country.
The final straw was him screaming “I (me) killed our mother !” Ouch.
He has a severe anger management issue but I’m not the receptacle of his rage. He lives in a bizarre fantasy world.
Anonymous
03/10/2019 10:44
Subject: Estrangement Doesn't Just Happen to "Bad" Moms—It Happened to Me Too
Estrangement goes hand in hand with abuse and mental illness. I wish someone more credible had written this book as the subject is interesting and timely.
When you come from an abusive family it’s a whole different reality. It’s not about holding the baby (although that was very hurtful) it about threatening to throw the baby out the window.
When you come from an abusive family it’s a whole different reality. It’s not about holding the baby (although that was very hurtful) it about threatening to throw the baby out the window.
Anonymous
03/10/2019 10:17
Subject: Estrangement Doesn't Just Happen to "Bad" Moms—It Happened to Me Too
Anonymous wrote: It wasn't a dog, and I am at peace as well. It's not safe or healthy to allow other people's toxicity and mental issues to negatively impact your life or the lives of others around you. You can't control people, and can only control your own environment.
How many baby daddies do you have? marriages, live in, boyfriends??
Anonymous
03/10/2019 08:59
Subject: Estrangement Doesn't Just Happen to "Bad" Moms—It Happened to Me Too
Anonymous wrote:Sorry, but something has to be missing. Would love to hear the son’s side and even what the siblings had to say.
I have a lot of empathy for her. Some families are very clannish and work from the beginning to exclude the in-laws, and sometimes the spouse. My husband's family is that way, but I was fortunate enough to be able to research their very extensive, weird background on the web which helped me understand what was going on.
My husband has tried over the years to separate me from my own family (who have been very accepting) but it hasn't happened and won't. My kids (now grown) see it for what it is.
Anonymous
03/09/2019 21:13
Subject: Estrangement Doesn't Just Happen to "Bad" Moms—It Happened to Me Too
Anonymous wrote: I'm also a mom who has an estranged ds. I have several other children, also. Ds is married.
Like the author of the article, the trouble began when the ds married. Unfortunately, dil has some signifigent mental health issues. Ds likely does as well, his biological father did so sometimes that happens.
One example of this is-their first Christmas, they were in temporary housing for college, and I got her a nice present for her beloved pet. In fact, I drove a long distance to purchase this-with my own then-newborn baby along-knowing that they had limited space and finances. Plus, they had mentioned this item for the pet and I was excited to buy it for her.
I then got a phone call from ds, questioning why I had gotten a present for pet and not dil? I could hear her in the backround of this call. I really did not know what to say.
They distanced themselves after this, and I am fine with that. Unlike the lady in the article, I'm not too upset, and I realize the problem is not with me-it's their mental illnesses. I can't take ownership of that.
I told the other kids (all young adults except for the little one) they of course can have any relationship they want with ds. One talks occasionally, the others choose none. I do not allow any contact with the little one-I won't expose the child to the mental illness.
I'm ok with the estrangement and don't mind how it is now. I ensured that ds had a good childhood and education and did my job well. Life goes on!
What are the “mental illnesses”? Have they been diagnosed by a licensed professional?
Anonymous
03/09/2019 20:44
Subject: Re:Estrangement Doesn't Just Happen to "Bad" Moms—It Happened to Me Too
Don't let your fingers dangle in the water ...
Anonymous
03/09/2019 20:43
Subject: Re:Estrangement Doesn't Just Happen to "Bad" Moms—It Happened to Me Too
This is not the right place for discussions about narcissists. I recommend finding a better place, if you need one. There are toxic people here. Ok for discussing real estate, some kids' issues, etc, but family relationships or anything MIL related? Oh no. Sharks patrol these waters!!
Anonymous
03/09/2019 18:10
Subject: Estrangement Doesn't Just Happen to "Bad" Moms—It Happened to Me Too
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The bizarre and crazy backstory narratives the pro-estrangement posters are weaving out of thin air are remarkable. Screaming "narcissist" while embellishing a wholly imaginary backstory does not make you sound rational or credible.
I think there are times estrangement is necessary. Not getting the exact present you wanted in college is not one of them.
Serious question, have you ever been affected by or spent time with a genuinely personality disordered individual? There are very distinct characteristics that are pretty obvious to those that have been there. There’s obviously more to the story about the college pet gift than Mom is relaying.
Yes. Making up wildly exaggerated stories and background was part of the dysfunction.
Ah, gaslighting by accusing the other person of gaslighting! My least fave :-/
You know, you are really building the case that the people screaming narcissist are unbalanced.
I believe there are cases where estrangement is warranted. I believe there are cases of years of abuse. I have friends, in fact, in that situation. But I also believe there are people like a lot of posters on this thread who live in entirely fantastical worlds, where they are imaginary victims. Making up whole cloth backstories is typical of this type. Look, I am not the one who made up an imaginary backstory here. I didn't come up with some fantasy world. That was you and the other pro-estrangement posters. And when you do that, you really weaken your credibility. The fact you don't even see this should be a red flag to you, but I bet it won't be.
Five bucks says this PP is the mom that wrote the post about giving her DIL the pet gift.
PP, you don't know any better than anyone else if there's a backstory or not as it relates to the situations posted on this thread. The fact you are so ridiculously insistent that there isn't says a lot about your motives and background. I choose to give people the benefit of the doubt, especially those who don't have the opportunity to defend themselves.
And personally, I don't give a crap if you take people's claims of narcissism seriously. Who are you, really? Nobody.
You can ask Jeff to confirm I am a different poster, if you'd like.
I am not taking a side here other than to point out that making up stories whole cloth doesn't make one sound credible. If that is a shock to you, you might want to ask why.
What hasn't sounded credible to you?
The posters who added backstory to the posts from the SIL with the new baby who cut everyone off, or who added to the story about the college girlfriend. Or the the poster who posted about how college girlfriend was right to be offended about getting a gift for her pet instead of her. I mean, for Pete's sake, that's ridiculous behavior.
I'm not saying that the original posters didn't leave something out, either. Maybe they did. But it's not credible just outright assume they're leaving out details and to therefore fill in the blanks with one's own imaginary backstories.
Anonymous
03/09/2019 18:01
Subject: Estrangement Doesn't Just Happen to "Bad" Moms—It Happened to Me Too
Which stories here seem made up?