Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What are people saying about Woodward? What kind of school will it be?

One thing is sure. It will be lower in test scores than current WJ. How much lower will depend on exact boundary. That doesn't mean that it will be a poor school.

It could be a regular neighborhood school. It could be part of a consortium. It could have magnet or signature programs. Etc.

Anonymous wrote:What are people saying about Woodward? What kind of school will it be?

One thing is sure. It will be lower in test scores than current WJ. How much lower will depend on exact boundary. That doesn't mean that it will be a poor school.

Anonymous wrote:What are people saying about Woodward? What kind of school will it be?

People are saying a lot, but nobody knows anything yet.

What are people saying about Woodward? What kind of school will it be?

To get back on track-- You can't really go wrong with either Bethesda or Kensington. Town of Kensington has some amazing Victorian homes. Bethesda has potentially walkable/easy to bus to metro access. Kensington has the MARC train and driveable (within 2 miles) to Grosvenor-Strathmore, Forest Glen, or Wheaton metro on the red line.

Kensington has fun, family-friendly events throughout the year (of course you don't have to live in Kensington to enjoy them!)

For what it's worth, we live on the "other" side of Kensington near Einstein HS. We are white. Our neighbors are white. We have preschoolers, but are planning on using the public schools.

BTW there are also lots of preschool options in Kensington, and some are cheaper than Bethesda.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Exactly, the theory expressed above might work for a couple of ES, but it doesn't explain at all whats going on in every ES school in Silver Spring. SS is full of people in all categories who make far less than 250K and if that is the case it should be reflected in achievement if SES is so important.

At the population level, some of that is reflected in test scores and college matriculation rates. But at the individual level, kids who are demographically similar perform similarly across the county. So a MC/UMC kid with engaged and educated parents will have the same outcome whether their parents stay in their "starter house" in Takoma Park, or leverage to the eyeballs to move west. The outcomes are the same for those kids because the advantages that are conferred by engaged and educated parents are the same.

No one is arguing that Silver Spring schools are full to the rafters with kids whose parents make $250K or more. Most Silver Spring and Takoma Park schools are economically and racially integrated, which residents view as a feature, not a bug.

I also don't want to overlook high achieving kids whose parents aren't high earners. We have many of those on the east side as well. But if we're talking about an apples to apples comparison of middle class kids with good supports, the data shows those kids are going to do well no matter what and it is neither necessary nor preferable to choose segregated schools in order to "ensure" good outcomes.

Again, I get your point and I don't have first hand knowledge of the exact background of everyone living in certain clusters but the fact that the entire population of both Einstein/Wheaton compared to Churchill is virtually within the margin of error of the test is quite striking if you are coming from a perspective that SES matters.


Churchill 1257
Wheaton 1173
Einstein 1148

Those are not the SAT scores of the entire population of these schools but rather the SAT scores of the white students at these schools per table A8. (Perhaps that is what you meant to write)
https://montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/sharedaccountability/reports/2017/1771102HS%20Princ_SAT%20Partic_Perf%20Class%20of%202017.pdf

What is the margin of error for the SAT?
Also want to point out that Wheaton has a couple of wonderful application based academic programs that pull from the DCC and that might skew the results upwards.

It's also the average score of the students who took the SAT. If you look at the percentages of students who took the SAT, it varies a lot. For example 47.2% of white students in the Churchill Class of 2017 took the SAT according to the charts in the linked document. Is that because they take the ACT? Because they do not plan to go to college? Because they took a test other than the particular version of the SAT that the chart is tracking? Is the sample of students who did take the SAT a representative sample of the graduates as a whole? And if not, is the metric still useful because we're talking about whether college-bound UMC kids will have a cohort of students with similar intentions? Looking at Wheaton 70-80% of the White, Black, Asian demographics took the SAT. 40% of the Hispanic graduates did. Depending on the argument posters are making, the graduates who didn't take the SAT may (or may not) also be relevant.

Which is all to say that relying on standardized test scores to tell you if a school is "good" is not as simple as people want it to be. Personally, I think talking to neighbors and friends who have personal experience with the school is just as good of a way to figure out if you think it will be a good environment for your kid. Anecdotes don't tell you everything, but neither do statistics unless you have a LOT of time to dedicate to the project of digging up, sorting and analyzing the data based on what's important to you.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Exactly, the theory expressed above might work for a couple of ES, but it doesn't explain at all whats going on in every ES school in Silver Spring. SS is full of people in all categories who make far less than 250K and if that is the case it should be reflected in achievement if SES is so important.

At the population level, some of that is reflected in test scores and college matriculation rates. But at the individual level, kids who are demographically similar perform similarly across the county. So a MC/UMC kid with engaged and educated parents will have the same outcome whether their parents stay in their "starter house" in Takoma Park, or leverage to the eyeballs to move west. The outcomes are the same for those kids because the advantages that are conferred by engaged and educated parents are the same.

No one is arguing that Silver Spring schools are full to the rafters with kids whose parents make $250K or more. Most Silver Spring and Takoma Park schools are economically and racially integrated, which residents view as a feature, not a bug.

I also don't want to overlook high achieving kids whose parents aren't high earners. We have many of those on the east side as well. But if we're talking about an apples to apples comparison of middle class kids with good supports, the data shows those kids are going to do well no matter what and it is neither necessary nor preferable to choose segregated schools in order to "ensure" good outcomes.

Again, I get your point and I don't have first hand knowledge of the exact background of everyone living in certain clusters but the fact that the entire population of both Einstein/Wheaton compared to Churchill is virtually within the margin of error of the test is quite striking if you are coming from a perspective that SES matters.


Churchill 1257
Wheaton 1173
Einstein 1148

Those are not the SAT scores of the entire population of these schools but rather the SAT scores of the white students at these schools per table A8. (Perhaps that is what you meant to write)
https://montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/sharedaccountability/reports/2017/1771102HS%20Princ_SAT%20Partic_Perf%20Class%20of%202017.pdf

What is the margin of error for the SAT?
Also want to point out that Wheaton has a couple of wonderful application based academic programs that pull from the DCC and that might skew the results upwards.

Of course it is, that's the population we are speaking about this entire thread.

The margin of error for SAT is about 60 but individuals can swing about 120 points.

Lastly, the signature programs are in plenty of high schools but I wouldn't expect this small number of students to skew the whole school significantly.

I don't think Wheaton's signature programs could skew the DCC scores at all because I thought they're limited to students from the DCC.

Further, a fairly thorough analysis of the impact of Blair's vaunted magnet program on their average showed a mere 2.3% because the total number of out of boundary students involved was fairly small.

Good point about only DCC students in Wheaton's program, though in theory, the combined average for all of DCC wouldn't change but individual schools could fluctuate if students are moving around. As I'm the PP, I'm skeptical though of how much of a difference it would be.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Exactly, the theory expressed above might work for a couple of ES, but it doesn't explain at all whats going on in every ES school in Silver Spring. SS is full of people in all categories who make far less than 250K and if that is the case it should be reflected in achievement if SES is so important.

At the population level, some of that is reflected in test scores and college matriculation rates. But at the individual level, kids who are demographically similar perform similarly across the county. So a MC/UMC kid with engaged and educated parents will have the same outcome whether their parents stay in their "starter house" in Takoma Park, or leverage to the eyeballs to move west. The outcomes are the same for those kids because the advantages that are conferred by engaged and educated parents are the same.

No one is arguing that Silver Spring schools are full to the rafters with kids whose parents make $250K or more. Most Silver Spring and Takoma Park schools are economically and racially integrated, which residents view as a feature, not a bug.

I also don't want to overlook high achieving kids whose parents aren't high earners. We have many of those on the east side as well. But if we're talking about an apples to apples comparison of middle class kids with good supports, the data shows those kids are going to do well no matter what and it is neither necessary nor preferable to choose segregated schools in order to "ensure" good outcomes.

Again, I get your point and I don't have first hand knowledge of the exact background of everyone living in certain clusters but the fact that the entire population of both Einstein/Wheaton compared to Churchill is virtually within the margin of error of the test is quite striking if you are coming from a perspective that SES matters.


Churchill 1257
Wheaton 1173
Einstein 1148

Those are not the SAT scores of the entire population of these schools but rather the SAT scores of the white students at these schools per table A8. (Perhaps that is what you meant to write)
https://montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/sharedaccountability/reports/2017/1771102HS%20Princ_SAT%20Partic_Perf%20Class%20of%202017.pdf

What is the margin of error for the SAT?
Also want to point out that Wheaton has a couple of wonderful application based academic programs that pull from the DCC and that might skew the results upwards.

Of course it is, that's the population we are speaking about this entire thread.

The margin of error for SAT is about 60 but individuals can swing about 120 points.

Lastly, the signature programs are in plenty of high schools but I wouldn't expect this small number of students to skew the whole school significantly.

I don't think Wheaton's signature programs could skew the DCC scores at all because I thought they're limited to students from the DCC.

Further, a fairly thorough analysis of the impact of Blair's vaunted magnet program on their average showed a mere 2.3% because the total number of out of boundary students involved was fairly small.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Exactly, the theory expressed above might work for a couple of ES, but it doesn't explain at all whats going on in every ES school in Silver Spring. SS is full of people in all categories who make far less than 250K and if that is the case it should be reflected in achievement if SES is so important.

At the population level, some of that is reflected in test scores and college matriculation rates. But at the individual level, kids who are demographically similar perform similarly across the county. So a MC/UMC kid with engaged and educated parents will have the same outcome whether their parents stay in their "starter house" in Takoma Park, or leverage to the eyeballs to move west. The outcomes are the same for those kids because the advantages that are conferred by engaged and educated parents are the same.

No one is arguing that Silver Spring schools are full to the rafters with kids whose parents make $250K or more. Most Silver Spring and Takoma Park schools are economically and racially integrated, which residents view as a feature, not a bug.

I also don't want to overlook high achieving kids whose parents aren't high earners. We have many of those on the east side as well. But if we're talking about an apples to apples comparison of middle class kids with good supports, the data shows those kids are going to do well no matter what and it is neither necessary nor preferable to choose segregated schools in order to "ensure" good outcomes.

Again, I get your point and I don't have first hand knowledge of the exact background of everyone living in certain clusters but the fact that the entire population of both Einstein/Wheaton compared to Churchill is virtually within the margin of error of the test is quite striking if you are coming from a perspective that SES matters.


Churchill 1257
Wheaton 1173
Einstein 1148

Those are not the SAT scores of the entire population of these schools but rather the SAT scores of the white students at these schools per table A8. (Perhaps that is what you meant to write)
https://montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/sharedaccountability/reports/2017/1771102HS%20Princ_SAT%20Partic_Perf%20Class%20of%202017.pdf

What is the margin of error for the SAT?
Also want to point out that Wheaton has a couple of wonderful application based academic programs that pull from the DCC and that might skew the results upwards.

Of course it is, that's the population we are speaking about this entire thread.

The margin of error for SAT is about 60 but individuals can swing about 120 points.

Lastly, the signature programs are in plenty of high schools but I wouldn't expect this small number of students to skew the whole school significantly.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

All I know is the average SAT score for my kid's cohort at Blair even not including magnet students is still better than any W.

Funny, Blair's scores are so low compared to the rest of the county, there must only be a precious few of your cohort there and not enough to move the needle. Shame most of them go home west after school hours compounding your kid's unicorn status

That is funny because the county's data shows otherwise.

Blair 1326
BCC 1291
Walter Johnson 1275
Wooton 1262
Churchill 1257

here the source on page 16 of the pdf or listed as 8 on the document
https://bit.ly/2x3tS5X

I remember reading this a while ago. Their intent was to look past simple averages that GS uses which serve only to identify which high-schools draw a higher percentage of rich kids., and provide a better, refined analysis that looks at the granular data.

When you isolate for race which is proxy a for socioeconomic status there is not much of a disparity between the performance of kids of the same backgrounds across these schools. For example, when you compare average SAT scores for MCPS schools for a larger demographic common to all these schools where the great schools narrative begins to fall apart and it becomes clear they're not all that different.

If that's true than the socioeconomic difference between W's and SS ( which there almost certainly has to be a difference) has no impact on scores for some groups.

That makes some sense, as the research shows the biggest indicator of test scores is parental education and to a lesser extent SES. Here on DCUM, we're used to parsing the difference between being in the top 5% of Americans for income (HHI of $200K) and the top 1% (HHI of $500K +), but those gradations don't make much difference on student outcomes, in part because people in the top 5% and people in the top 1% tend to have pretty similar education levels.

So, a two-federal worker family in Silver Spring has a HHI of around $250K. A two private sector family in Potomac has a HHI of $750K. But there is unlikely to be a substantial difference in parental education levels between those two families. Both families probably have parents with advanced degrees, where higher education is encouraged and expected, etc. Both families can afford to support extracurricular activities to allow their kids to pursue their passions. One family has nicer cars, a "better' neighborhood, probably more interesting vacations, but the fundamentals are pretty similar and outcomes are also similar.

great post

By far most of the people in silver spring are not close to a 250K double fed family. Most people in Potomac are at least that. That is the difference and if you don’t think the burden of the dregs of society aren’t a factor of an area’s QOL then you’re naive

Silver Spring is enormous. I doubt you are actually familiar with most of it. In 20901 and 20910 $250k is fairly typical. Based on what I and my neighbors do for a living, I’d say that’s the norm in our neighborhood.
But I don’t expect someone who talks about “the dregs if society “ to believe that. But you are only showing your ignorance.

We live in 20902 zoned to Flora Singer and this cohort is our neighborhood. Lots of dual income families many feds, advanced degrees in that HHI range.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Exactly, the theory expressed above might work for a couple of ES, but it doesn't explain at all whats going on in every ES school in Silver Spring. SS is full of people in all categories who make far less than 250K and if that is the case it should be reflected in achievement if SES is so important.

At the population level, some of that is reflected in test scores and college matriculation rates. But at the individual level, kids who are demographically similar perform similarly across the county. So a MC/UMC kid with engaged and educated parents will have the same outcome whether their parents stay in their "starter house" in Takoma Park, or leverage to the eyeballs to move west. The outcomes are the same for those kids because the advantages that are conferred by engaged and educated parents are the same.

No one is arguing that Silver Spring schools are full to the rafters with kids whose parents make $250K or more. Most Silver Spring and Takoma Park schools are economically and racially integrated, which residents view as a feature, not a bug.

I also don't want to overlook high achieving kids whose parents aren't high earners. We have many of those on the east side as well. But if we're talking about an apples to apples comparison of middle class kids with good supports, the data shows those kids are going to do well no matter what and it is neither necessary nor preferable to choose segregated schools in order to "ensure" good outcomes.

Again, I get your point and I don't have first hand knowledge of the exact background of everyone living in certain clusters but the fact that the entire population of both Einstein/Wheaton compared to Churchill is virtually within the margin of error of the test is quite striking if you are coming from a perspective that SES matters.


Churchill 1257
Wheaton 1173
Einstein 1148

Those are not the SAT scores of the entire population of these schools but rather the SAT scores of the white students at these schools per table A8. (Perhaps that is what you meant to write)
https://montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/sharedaccountability/reports/2017/1771102HS%20Princ_SAT%20Partic_Perf%20Class%20of%202017.pdf

What is the margin of error for the SAT?
Also want to point out that Wheaton has a couple of wonderful application based academic programs that pull from the DCC and that might skew the results upwards.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

All I know is the average SAT score for my kid's cohort at Blair even not including magnet students is still better than any W.

Funny, Blair's scores are so low compared to the rest of the county, there must only be a precious few of your cohort there and not enough to move the needle. Shame most of them go home west after school hours compounding your kid's unicorn status

That is funny because the county's data shows otherwise.

Blair 1326
BCC 1291
Walter Johnson 1275
Wooton 1262
Churchill 1257

here the source on page 16 of the pdf or listed as 8 on the document
https://bit.ly/2x3tS5X

I remember reading this a while ago. Their intent was to look past simple averages that GS uses which serve only to identify which high-schools draw a higher percentage of rich kids., and provide a better, refined analysis that looks at the granular data.

When you isolate for race which is proxy a for socioeconomic status there is not much of a disparity between the performance of kids of the same backgrounds across these schools. For example, when you compare average SAT scores for MCPS schools for a larger demographic common to all these schools where the great schools narrative begins to fall apart and it becomes clear they're not all that different.

If that's true than the socioeconomic difference between W's and SS ( which there almost certainly has to be a difference) has no impact on scores for some groups.

That makes some sense, as the research shows the biggest indicator of test scores is parental education and to a lesser extent SES. Here on DCUM, we're used to parsing the difference between being in the top 5% of Americans for income (HHI of $200K) and the top 1% (HHI of $500K +), but those gradations don't make much difference on student outcomes, in part because people in the top 5% and people in the top 1% tend to have pretty similar education levels.

So, a two-federal worker family in Silver Spring has a HHI of around $250K. A two private sector family in Potomac has a HHI of $750K. But there is unlikely to be a substantial difference in parental education levels between those two families. Both families probably have parents with advanced degrees, where higher education is encouraged and expected, etc. Both families can afford to support extracurricular activities to allow their kids to pursue their passions. One family has nicer cars, a "better' neighborhood, probably more interesting vacations, but the fundamentals are pretty similar and outcomes are also similar.

great post

Agree. As a data point, we are a physician/attorney couple near downtown Silver Spring and making close to $400k total. We could afford to live in Bethesda, but chose Silver Spring for a variety of reasons. We also chose public service, not private sector, because we truly enjoy the fascinating work we get to do, and we also wanted work/life balance. We spend a lot of time and energy engaging in our children's education, and some of our private sector friends (with private sector hours) making more $$ and living in more expensive areas do not have that luxury.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Exactly, the theory expressed above might work for a couple of ES, but it doesn't explain at all whats going on in every ES school in Silver Spring. SS is full of people in all categories who make far less than 250K and if that is the case it should be reflected in achievement if SES is so important.

At the population level, some of that is reflected in test scores and college matriculation rates. But at the individual level, kids who are demographically similar perform similarly across the county. So a MC/UMC kid with engaged and educated parents will have the same outcome whether their parents stay in their "starter house" in Takoma Park, or leverage to the eyeballs to move west. The outcomes are the same for those kids because the advantages that are conferred by engaged and educated parents are the same.

No one is arguing that Silver Spring schools are full to the rafters with kids whose parents make $250K or more. Most Silver Spring and Takoma Park schools are economically and racially integrated, which residents view as a feature, not a bug.

I also don't want to overlook high achieving kids whose parents aren't high earners. We have many of those on the east side as well. But if we're talking about an apples to apples comparison of middle class kids with good supports, the data shows those kids are going to do well no matter what and it is neither necessary nor preferable to choose segregated schools in order to "ensure" good outcomes.

Again, I get your point and I don't have first hand knowledge of the exact background of everyone living in certain clusters but the fact that the entire population of both Einstein/Wheaton compared to Churchill is virtually within the margin of error of the test is quite striking if you are coming from a perspective that SES matters.


Churchill 1257
Wheaton 1173
Einstein 1148

It also stands to reason that each school of more than 2000 students has a high-achieving cohort (critical mass). Perhaps, one has an additional section of AP Calculus, but any student can learn this topic equally well at either school since ultimately use the same curriculum and teachers.

Anonymous wrote:

Exactly, the theory expressed above might work for a couple of ES, but it doesn't explain at all whats going on in every ES school in Silver Spring. SS is full of people in all categories who make far less than 250K and if that is the case it should be reflected in achievement if SES is so important.

At the population level, some of that is reflected in test scores and college matriculation rates. But at the individual level, kids who are demographically similar perform similarly across the county. So a MC/UMC kid with engaged and educated parents will have the same outcome whether their parents stay in their "starter house" in Takoma Park, or leverage to the eyeballs to move west. The outcomes are the same for those kids because the advantages that are conferred by engaged and educated parents are the same.

No one is arguing that Silver Spring schools are full to the rafters with kids whose parents make $250K or more. Most Silver Spring and Takoma Park schools are economically and racially integrated, which residents view as a feature, not a bug.

I also don't want to overlook high achieving kids whose parents aren't high earners. We have many of those on the east side as well. But if we're talking about an apples to apples comparison of middle class kids with good supports, the data shows those kids are going to do well no matter what and it is neither necessary nor preferable to choose segregated schools in order to "ensure" good outcomes.

This makes sense to me and aligns with my personal experiences having lived on both sides of the county. I also felt my children were better served by attending a diverse desegregated school but that’s the subject for another day n

Anonymous wrote:

Exactly, the theory expressed above might work for a couple of ES, but it doesn't explain at all whats going on in every ES school in Silver Spring. SS is full of people in all categories who make far less than 250K and if that is the case it should be reflected in achievement if SES is so important.

At the population level, some of that is reflected in test scores and college matriculation rates. But at the individual level, kids who are demographically similar perform similarly across the county. So a MC/UMC kid with engaged and educated parents will have the same outcome whether their parents stay in their "starter house" in Takoma Park, or leverage to the eyeballs to move west. The outcomes are the same for those kids because the advantages that are conferred by engaged and educated parents are the same.

No one is arguing that Silver Spring schools are full to the rafters with kids whose parents make $250K or more. Most Silver Spring and Takoma Park schools are economically and racially integrated, which residents view as a feature, not a bug.

I also don't want to overlook high achieving kids whose parents aren't high earners. We have many of those on the east side as well. But if we're talking about an apples to apples comparison of middle class kids with good supports, the data shows those kids are going to do well no matter what and it is neither necessary nor preferable to choose segregated schools in order to "ensure" good outcomes.

Again, I get your point and I don't have first hand knowledge of the exact background of everyone living in certain clusters but the fact that the entire population of both Einstein/Wheaton compared to Churchill is virtually within the margin of error of the test is quite striking if you are coming from a perspective that SES matters.


Churchill 1257
Wheaton 1173
Einstein 1148