Anonymous
Post 08/25/2018 06:39     Subject: Re:Can you reconcile remaining Catholic?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:As a non catholic watching this unfold, it is so heartbreaking to see. Obviously tears and rage for the victims. But I also feel so badly for those of you trying to figure out how to respond from the laity. The problem, in my opinion, is that the Catholic Church, perhaps more than any other religious institution prides itself on its history (Church of Paul), it’s rituals (glorious and soul lifting), and it’s hierarchy (how this tradition is passed and it’s lineage preserved). If you don’t value the priesthood, what does it really mean to be a Catholic rather than say Episcopalian? I don’t envy you the identity crisis and wish you strength and healing.


Finally a thoughtful response from a non-Catholic.


Eh more like a (not so) subtle plug for the Episcopalian church. Poaching the fresh meat!

These are children being raped. If you are conflicted about continuing to support the Catholic church either in money or attendance, something is wrong.
Anonymous
Post 08/24/2018 20:04     Subject: Re:Can you reconcile remaining Catholic?
As a catholic I value the history of the church and its steadfastness. Maybe I don't value the priesthood or haven't for many years as things have gotten worse. It's not an easy thing to do. One of my catholic friends wrote how sad she is for the good priests going through so much pain right now. Hasn't addressed the victims at all. It made me sick to my stomach. Any priest in the US has known about many issues in the priesthood for decades and while they may be good themselves, they made the decision to look away.
Anonymous
Post 08/24/2018 20:01     Subject: Re:Can you reconcile remaining Catholic?
Anonymous wrote:As a non catholic watching this unfold, it is so heartbreaking to see. Obviously tears and rage for the victims. But I also feel so badly for those of you trying to figure out how to respond from the laity. The problem, in my opinion, is that the Catholic Church, perhaps more than any other religious institution prides itself on its history (Church of Paul), it’s rituals (glorious and soul lifting), and it’s hierarchy (how this tradition is passed and it’s lineage preserved). If you don’t value the priesthood, what does it really mean to be a Catholic rather than say Episcopalian? I don’t envy you the identity crisis and wish you strength and healing.


Finally a thoughtful response from a non-Catholic.
Anonymous
Post 08/24/2018 19:56     Subject: Re:Can you reconcile remaining Catholic?
As a non catholic watching this unfold, it is so heartbreaking to see. Obviously tears and rage for the victims. But I also feel so badly for those of you trying to figure out how to respond from the laity. The problem, in my opinion, is that the Catholic Church, perhaps more than any other religious institution prides itself on its history (Church of Paul), it’s rituals (glorious and soul lifting), and it’s hierarchy (how this tradition is passed and it’s lineage preserved). If you don’t value the priesthood, what does it really mean to be a Catholic rather than say Episcopalian? I don’t envy you the identity crisis and wish you strength and healing.
Anonymous
Post 08/24/2018 00:34     Subject: Can you reconcile remaining Catholic?
Anonymous wrote:How are you able to reconcile practicing the Catholic faith after yesterday's release of more sexual abuse by priests? I ask out of genuine curiosity.


1. Child abuse is disgusting and horrifying and child abusers need to be jailed.

2. Child abuse exists in a lot of settings. Including many different religions, schools (including public), sports (gymnastics, Penn State), entertainment (tons of hollywood scandals), summer camps, etc.

3. The Catholic Church has a number of special issues relating to celibacy, which attracted a lot of closeted homosexual clergy (80% of abuse cases were teenage boys), and a hierarchical structure that promotes consistent teaching of the faith but also discourages challenges to the decisions of the hierarchy. So while abuse can and does happen in many settings, there were particular problems in the Church that must be addressed and cannot be waived away.

4. Most of the abuse in the Catholic Church was prior to the turn of the century. I am sure things are not perfect, but I do think many steps have been made since then. But I also 100% agree that some steps are not enough. I don't want to sit idly by. I want to change the culture of the church, call the cops on any remaining child abusers, and throw out any bishops that failed at their job. If I failed at my private sector job I'd be fired in a heartbeat. There are plenty of good priests that can replace some of these failed bishops, and it's a disgrace that the Vatican doesn't send them packing and bring in new blood.

5. If we root out the gay subculture in the Church that will solve a lot of problems. That group was responsible for a lot of the culture of "don't snitch on father so-and-so." They did not want people to call them out on their moral indiscretions, so they turned a blind eye to the indiscretions of others. In some cases, like Cardinal McCarrick, members of that subgroup would band together and encourage each other's rise up the hierarchy and then cover up for each other and encourage an environment where questions were not asked and investigations were never made. Most of these folks were simply sexually active with other adults, but this was the corrupt backdrop in which abusers (both homosexual abusers of teenage boys and pedophiles abusing younger children) could thrive.

#5 may not be politically correct but anyone who has dug into this scandal in great depth cannot deny it is a factor. The culture of the Church has actually changed a lot in the next few decades so I'm hopeful that things are turning around. But the current corrupt generation of leaders at the top needs to die off or get replaced before we can be confident real change will occur. I vote replaced, so I will stay and push for reform for my church.

Cardinal Wuerl (and Cardinal Tobin in Newark for that matter) should resign immediately. I wouldn't mind seeing O'Malley (Boston) and Dolan (NY) resign too.


Anonymous
Post 08/20/2018 22:38     Subject: Can you reconcile remaining Catholic?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I will understand if no one writes back or if no one is still reading at this point. I don't have time to read 11 pages and have skimmed the news - but can someone just fill me in on what new information we got from this report? Why is everyone acting like this is new information? I thought we have always known about rampant sex abuse in the Catholic Church (I say this as a Catholic, I'm not trying to be a jerk). But this is not new information, right? Just more examples of the same?


http://www.philly.com/philly/news/catholic-church-clergy-sex-abuse-read-the-full-grand-jury-report-20180814.html

Beginning of linked article:
A redacted version of the long-awaited grand jury report alleging decades of sexual abuse and cover-ups by Roman Catholic officials across the state was released Tuesday.

The 1,356-page document is the culmination of the Pa. Attorney General Office’s investigation into seven decades of allegations of sexual abuse by Catholic priests in the dioceses of Pittsburgh, Allentown, Erie, Greensburg, Harrisburg, and Scranton. The two other Pennsylvanian Catholic dioceses of Philadelphia and Altoona-Johnstown were also investigated in recent years.

In the report, the grand jury said the two-year investigation uncovered credible allegations of sexual abuse by over 300 priests, with thousands of victims.

The judge overseeing the grand jury ordered this report released in June. But about two dozen current and former clergy named in the report succeeded in blocking its release, claiming it would violate their rights to due process and reputation. On July 27, the Pa. Supreme Court ordered the report’s release by Tuesday, with identifying information about those clergy petitioners redacted in the meantime, while the court considers their claims.



And this is the rebuttal if you can stomach it from the catholic league president https://www.catholicleague.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/PA-GRAND-JURY-REPORT-DEBUNKED1.pdf
Here's a sample gem from it!

Myth: The priests “raped” their victims. Shapiro said that “Church officials routinely and purposely described the abuse as horseplay and wrestling and inappropriate contact. It was none of those things.” He said it was “rape.” Similarly, the New York Times quoted from the report saying that Church officials used such terms as “horseplay” and “inappropriate contact” as part of their “playbook for concealing the truth.”

Fact: This is an obscene lie. Most of the alleged victims were not raped: they were groped or otherwise abused, but not penetrated, which is what the word “rape” means. This is not a defense—it is meant to set the record straight and debunk the worst case scenarios attributed to the offenders.

Read more from the previously mentioned link https://ascienceenthusiast.com/catholic-league-president-says-its-not-rape-if-the-child-isnt-penetrated/


Bill Donohue is garbage and a disgrace to the church he claims to, but does not, represent.

And these days, being a disgrace to the Catholic Church takes a lot of effort! But Bill manages.
Anonymous
Post 08/20/2018 17:47     Subject: Can you reconcile remaining Catholic?
I truly hope that Catholicism finds a way to solve this issue while maintaining what makes the faith great and has made such good people of many of my friends.

I have a hard enough time getting my head around Christianity in general (I grew up with a different faith), but I think the stress on work over faith is a good thing, and that many elements of the culture are wonderful.

There has to be a way for the faith to move forward with a happier life for their clergy.
Anonymous
Post 08/20/2018 16:18     Subject: Can you reconcile remaining Catholic?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I will understand if no one writes back or if no one is still reading at this point. I don't have time to read 11 pages and have skimmed the news - but can someone just fill me in on what new information we got from this report? Why is everyone acting like this is new information? I thought we have always known about rampant sex abuse in the Catholic Church (I say this as a Catholic, I'm not trying to be a jerk). But this is not new information, right? Just more examples of the same?


http://www.philly.com/philly/news/catholic-church-clergy-sex-abuse-read-the-full-grand-jury-report-20180814.html

Beginning of linked article:
A redacted version of the long-awaited grand jury report alleging decades of sexual abuse and cover-ups by Roman Catholic officials across the state was released Tuesday.

The 1,356-page document is the culmination of the Pa. Attorney General Office’s investigation into seven decades of allegations of sexual abuse by Catholic priests in the dioceses of Pittsburgh, Allentown, Erie, Greensburg, Harrisburg, and Scranton. The two other Pennsylvanian Catholic dioceses of Philadelphia and Altoona-Johnstown were also investigated in recent years.

In the report, the grand jury said the two-year investigation uncovered credible allegations of sexual abuse by over 300 priests, with thousands of victims.

The judge overseeing the grand jury ordered this report released in June. But about two dozen current and former clergy named in the report succeeded in blocking its release, claiming it would violate their rights to due process and reputation. On July 27, the Pa. Supreme Court ordered the report’s release by Tuesday, with identifying information about those clergy petitioners redacted in the meantime, while the court considers their claims.



And this is the rebuttal if you can stomach it from the catholic league president https://www.catholicleague.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/PA-GRAND-JURY-REPORT-DEBUNKED1.pdf
Here's a sample gem from it!

Myth: The priests “raped” their victims. Shapiro said that “Church officials routinely and purposely described the abuse as horseplay and wrestling and inappropriate contact. It was none of those things.” He said it was “rape.” Similarly, the New York Times quoted from the report saying that Church officials used such terms as “horseplay” and “inappropriate contact” as part of their “playbook for concealing the truth.”

Fact: This is an obscene lie. Most of the alleged victims were not raped: they were groped or otherwise abused, but not penetrated, which is what the word “rape” means. This is not a defense—it is meant to set the record straight and debunk the worst case scenarios attributed to the offenders.

Read more from the previously mentioned link https://ascienceenthusiast.com/catholic-league-president-says-its-not-rape-if-the-child-isnt-penetrated/
Anonymous
Post 08/20/2018 16:09     Subject: Can you reconcile remaining Catholic?
Anonymous wrote:I will understand if no one writes back or if no one is still reading at this point. I don't have time to read 11 pages and have skimmed the news - but can someone just fill me in on what new information we got from this report? Why is everyone acting like this is new information? I thought we have always known about rampant sex abuse in the Catholic Church (I say this as a Catholic, I'm not trying to be a jerk). But this is not new information, right? Just more examples of the same?


http://www.philly.com/philly/news/catholic-church-clergy-sex-abuse-read-the-full-grand-jury-report-20180814.html

Beginning of linked article:
A redacted version of the long-awaited grand jury report alleging decades of sexual abuse and cover-ups by Roman Catholic officials across the state was released Tuesday.

The 1,356-page document is the culmination of the Pa. Attorney General Office’s investigation into seven decades of allegations of sexual abuse by Catholic priests in the dioceses of Pittsburgh, Allentown, Erie, Greensburg, Harrisburg, and Scranton. The two other Pennsylvanian Catholic dioceses of Philadelphia and Altoona-Johnstown were also investigated in recent years.

In the report, the grand jury said the two-year investigation uncovered credible allegations of sexual abuse by over 300 priests, with thousands of victims.

The judge overseeing the grand jury ordered this report released in June. But about two dozen current and former clergy named in the report succeeded in blocking its release, claiming it would violate their rights to due process and reputation. On July 27, the Pa. Supreme Court ordered the report’s release by Tuesday, with identifying information about those clergy petitioners redacted in the meantime, while the court considers their claims.
Anonymous
Post 08/20/2018 15:28     Subject: Can you reconcile remaining Catholic?
I will understand if no one writes back or if no one is still reading at this point. I don't have time to read 11 pages and have skimmed the news - but can someone just fill me in on what new information we got from this report? Why is everyone acting like this is new information? I thought we have always known about rampant sex abuse in the Catholic Church (I say this as a Catholic, I'm not trying to be a jerk). But this is not new information, right? Just more examples of the same?
Anonymous
Post 08/20/2018 15:16     Subject: Can you reconcile remaining Catholic?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I hate to say it, but priests abusing kids is not a strictly catholic thing.
It gets the majority of the public attention because it is a big church, the media also tends to be more sensitive to how they write about minority religions


Do you think the fact that abuse happens in other religions minimizes the crimes of the catholic church? It would seem that is the point of your post you disgusting, garbage human being.


Part of religion is controlling people and that often leads to abuse! She’s not a bad person for pointing that out.


It’s epidemic numbers and it does happen in other religions and more will be exposed. Conservative Jewish friends say the Orthodox Jews are just a bad. If people flee RC church for other brick and mortar faith and they choose Episcopalian or Lutheran, are kids safer? Catholic schools safe? Hebrew schools safe? Mosques? Greek Orthodox? It’s all an abomination! If you search, you will find.

My family’s faith is now between us and God. No liaison needed. We’ll continue to do good work for others.
Anonymous
Post 08/20/2018 11:34     Subject: Re:Can you reconcile remaining Catholic?
Anonymous wrote:Does anyone know if there are going to be "rolling" reviews of sexual abuse claims in each state? Will they review sexual abuse claims in the Archdiocese of Washington?


That is up to each state, I suppose. This was a Commonwealth of PA special statewide grand jury investigation. The ADW spans three states, so it could be federal, I guess. But, there's no telling whether other grand juries would take the extraordinary step of issuing a report like this, which they did out of frustration because, given that the records spanned 70 years and most of the perps are dead or already in prison, they could only find two incidents where they could indict.

"But we are not satisfied by the few charges we can bring, which represent only a tiny
percentage of all the child abusers we saw. We are sick over all the crimes that will go unpunished
and uncompensated. This report is our only recourse. We are going to name their names, and
describe what they did – both the sex offenders and those who concealed them. We are going to
shine a light on their conduct, because that is what the victims deserve. And we are going to make
our recommendations for how the laws should change so that maybe no one will have to conduct
another inquiry like this one. We hereby exercise our historical and statutory right as grand jurors
to inform the public of our findings."
Anonymous
Post 08/20/2018 11:31     Subject: Can you reconcile remaining Catholic?
My DH was horribly mistreated by the Catholic Church. He recalls his days as a seminarian being psychological tortured by his superiors. He also had a very evil boss who was a priest. Despite this, my DH still has faith. I was considering sending my dd to Catholic school because our public school is not good. I have made the decision that the Catholic school won’t be a suitable alternative. I don’t want to give the Church a dime.
Anonymous
Post 08/20/2018 11:01     Subject: Can you reconcile remaining Catholic?
Priest shortgage issues - decline in seminarians and steady numbers of deacons [rise in total] since Vatican II:
https://cara.georgetown.edu/Overview201516.pdf

Some parishes also lost membership due to doctrine while replaced with out of boundary members. https://newrepublic.com/article/101420/santorums-church-opus-dei

Parishes are geographic so a Mclean parish got an overload.
Anonymous
Post 08/20/2018 09:07     Subject: Can you reconcile remaining Catholic?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I hate to say it, but priests abusing kids is not a strictly catholic thing.
It gets the majority of the public attention because it is a big church, the media also tends to be more sensitive to how they write about minority religions


Do you think the fact that abuse happens in other religions minimizes the crimes of the catholic church? It would seem that is the point of your post you disgusting, garbage human being.


Part of religion is controlling people and that often leads to abuse! She’s not a bad person for pointing that out.


Controlling weak minded sheep, perhaps. But don't deflect the conversation away from the institutional corruption at every level of the catholic church. If you don't own your crimes and your complicity you have no hope of ever overcoming them.