Anonymous
11/09/2017 21:33
Subject: Re:Multi-generation Princeton double-legacy. DC doesn't want to go there...help
Honestly consider yourself very fortunate that:
1. Your child has grades good enough to get into Princeton
2. He is independent-minded and can obviously think for himself
3. Your family is fortunate enough to have this kind of legacy.
I don't know why you are asking for "Help". Your kid sounds like he will do just fine if you back off.
1. Your child has grades good enough to get into Princeton
2. He is independent-minded and can obviously think for himself
3. Your family is fortunate enough to have this kind of legacy.
I don't know why you are asking for "Help". Your kid sounds like he will do just fine if you back off.
Anonymous
11/09/2017 21:20
Subject: Multi-generation Princeton double-legacy. DC doesn't want to go there...help
I was a legacy at Princeton and similar to your son- refused to apply. Now I really regret that for a variety of reasons.
You could tell your son my story, but I dont know if it will do any good. But... good luck!
You could tell your son my story, but I dont know if it will do any good. But... good luck!
Anonymous
11/09/2017 21:06
Subject: Multi-generation Princeton double-legacy. DC doesn't want to go there...help
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Princeton was historically the finishing school of the slave-owning, southern elites. Just saying.
As long as Princeton tolerates its remaining selective eating clubs (e.g., Cottage, Ivy, Cap & Gown, Tiger and Tower), its reputation for social exclusivity will remain intact. They shape the perception of Princeton in a way that the final clubs and secret societies do not at Harvard or Yale.
However, when I went there over 30 years ago, the number of students from the South was quite small in comparison to the number from NY, NJ, CT, PA, IL and CA. Most of the kids from VA were from NoVa or Richmond, with just a handful from other parts of the state. And the number from the Deep South was very small. I can't imagine that's changed.
The eating clubs that you mention are quite different from each other and lumping them together is a mistake. They have very different types of members and very different ways to choose members. I was a member of one of the clubs you denigrate. Our rush (we called it "bicker") process was totally devoid of hazing of any kind and was simply meant as a way to meet people. Our rush process produced a fairly diverse club in terms of race, sexual orientation, and socio-economic background. We also took everyone we could fit -- we didn't artificially reject people to be exclusive for the sake of exclusivity. This is very different from some of the other clubs where the bicker process is more questionable and it produces a more homogeneous group of members.
Let's say 120 people apply and the club can fit 100. What are the alternatives? You either have some sort of selection process or you just do a lottery. I can understand why some people prefer a lottery -- and if you don't want to bicker -- the other half of the clubs do use a lottery. But, there is nothing inherently wrong with having a selection process and such a process happens in many other aspects of society.
And, as an aside, Harvard and Yale actually have more of a secret society element on campus. There numbers are (pretty much by definition) smaller, but there you don't have an option of "non-selective" clubs which you do at Princeton.
Anonymous
11/09/2017 20:30
Subject: Multi-generation Princeton double-legacy. DC doesn't want to go there...help
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Princeton was historically the finishing school of the slave-owning, southern elites. Just saying.
Interesting. What are Yale, Harvard, Penn, and Brown's historical reps?
This is from wikipedia:
Edward Digby Baltzell wrote: "The three major upper-class institutions in America have been Harvard, Yale, and Princeton." These colleges have, in the past, been set apart from others by a special historic connection with the White-Anglo-Saxon Protestant (WASP) establishment. Baltzell added, "Throughout the thirties and well into the forties, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and the University of Pennsylvania were still staffed almost entirely by old-stock Protestants."[7] Of the three, Princeton University was traditionally the preferred choice of the Southern upper class.[8]
The Saturday Review found in 1963 that Harvard, Yale, and Princeton enrolled 45% of boys on the New York Social Register. The University of Pennsylvania was fourth and the other Ivy League members had far fewer, below such schools as Trinity College and the University of Virginia.[10] That year Nathaniel Burt described the social prestige of the Big Three:
It is, above all, the national social prestige of the Big Three which is competition with the purely local social prestige of the University [of Pennsylvania]. Upper-class boys from all over the country, including Philadelphia, go to Harvard, Yale, and Princeton. Only from Philadelphia do upper-class boys go in any significant numbers to Penn. This is of course a universal national phenomenon. The pattern of upper-class male college preference, as deduced from a counting of noses in the various Social Registers, can be summed up as "The Big Three and a Local Favorite."[11]
Burt continued, "Every city sends or has sent its Socially Registered sons to Harvard, Yale, and Princeton, in some preferred order, and to one local institution. This order varies. New York sets the pattern with Yale first, Harvard second, Princeton third, then Columbia. St. Louis and Baltimore are Princeton towns. Most other cities (Chicago, Cleveland, Cincinnati) are Yale towns. Only Boston, and occasionally Washington, are Harvard towns."
One of the main reasons HYP were historically more prestigious than Penn and Columbia was the fact that the former retained their traditional exclusivity to everyone else outside the WASP elite and discriminated against Jews for a long time, while the latter two became major destinations for jewish students much earlier.
Anonymous
11/09/2017 20:26
Subject: Multi-generation Princeton double-legacy. DC doesn't want to go there...help
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:^I would argue Amy Gutman of Penn is at least up there with him. She is amazing.
I had her as a professor and she isn't nearly as impressive as Eisgruber.
As a professor maybe not, but as a president and administrator she definitely is. She has done wonders for Penn.
Anonymous
11/09/2017 20:18
Subject: Multi-generation Princeton double-legacy. DC doesn't want to go there...help
Anonymous wrote:^I would argue Amy Gutman of Penn is at least up there with him. She is amazing.
I had her as a professor and she isn't nearly as impressive as Eisgruber.
Anonymous
11/09/2017 19:39
Subject: Multi-generation Princeton double-legacy. DC doesn't want to go there...help
Anonymous wrote:Princeton was historically the finishing school of the slave-owning, southern elites. Just saying.
Who cares? It's 2017.....let it go.
Anonymous
11/09/2017 18:47
Subject: Re:Multi-generation Princeton double-legacy. DC doesn't want to go there...help
Did not read through the entire thread, but kudos to your DS for carving his own way. Let him figure it out on his own. Get him to at least apply and then cross the bridge of a decision when (and if) the time comes. There is no reason to discuss it until next summer/fall when you start the application process and that is a long time from now. He's probably acting out due to all the pressure coming from your DH and the rest of the family. Let it lay for a while, and maybe he will come around.
Anonymous
11/09/2017 18:26
Subject: Multi-generation Princeton double-legacy. DC doesn't want to go there...help
^I would argue Amy Gutman of Penn is at least up there with him. She is amazing.
Anonymous
11/09/2017 17:23
Subject: Re:Multi-generation Princeton double-legacy. DC doesn't want to go there...help
I'm in the camp of those who'd let OP's kid go where his heart takes him, legacies be damned.
However, Princeton is a great school and there is no better leader among the Ivy League presidents right now than Chris Eisgruber. He is fantastic.
However, Princeton is a great school and there is no better leader among the Ivy League presidents right now than Chris Eisgruber. He is fantastic.
Anonymous
11/09/2017 16:46
Subject: Multi-generation Princeton double-legacy. DC doesn't want to go there...help
As I suspect 16:11 already knows, in recent years, Harvard, Yale, and Brown have all documented their ties to slavery.
Here are links to those reports:
Brown:
http://www.brown.edu/Research/Slavery_Justice/documents/SlaveryAndJustice.pdf
Yale:
http://www.yaleslavery.org/YSA.pdf
Harvard:
http://www.harvardandslavery.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Harvard-Slavery-Book-111110.pdf
Penn denies any links to slavery.
A series of other universities (including William & Mary, University of Maryland, and Georgetown) have embarked upon projects to understand how slavery shaped their histories.
And
Princeton is doing a symposium on the issue this month, with Toni Morrison as the keynote speaker:
http://arts.princeton.edu/events/princeton-slavery-project-symposium/2017-11-17/
Here are links to those reports:
Brown:
http://www.brown.edu/Research/Slavery_Justice/documents/SlaveryAndJustice.pdf
Yale:
http://www.yaleslavery.org/YSA.pdf
Harvard:
http://www.harvardandslavery.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Harvard-Slavery-Book-111110.pdf
Penn denies any links to slavery.
A series of other universities (including William & Mary, University of Maryland, and Georgetown) have embarked upon projects to understand how slavery shaped their histories.
And
Princeton is doing a symposium on the issue this month, with Toni Morrison as the keynote speaker:
http://arts.princeton.edu/events/princeton-slavery-project-symposium/2017-11-17/
Anonymous
11/09/2017 16:33
Subject: Multi-generation Princeton double-legacy. DC doesn't want to go there...help
Anonymous wrote:Princeton was historically the finishing school of the slave-owning, southern elites. Just saying.
As long as Princeton tolerates its remaining selective eating clubs (e.g., Cottage, Ivy, Cap & Gown, Tiger and Tower), its reputation for social exclusivity will remain intact. They shape the perception of Princeton in a way that the final clubs and secret societies do not at Harvard or Yale.
However, when I went there over 30 years ago, the number of students from the South was quite small in comparison to the number from NY, NJ, CT, PA, IL and CA. Most of the kids from VA were from NoVa or Richmond, with just a handful from other parts of the state. And the number from the Deep South was very small. I can't imagine that's changed.
Anonymous
11/09/2017 16:17
Subject: Multi-generation Princeton double-legacy. DC doesn't want to go there...help
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Princeton was historically the finishing school of the slave-owning, southern elites. Just saying.
Interesting. What are Yale, Harvard, Penn, and Brown's historical reps?
This is from wikipedia:
Edward Digby Baltzell wrote: "The three major upper-class institutions in America have been Harvard, Yale, and Princeton." These colleges have, in the past, been set apart from others by a special historic connection with the White-Anglo-Saxon Protestant (WASP) establishment. Baltzell added, "Throughout the thirties and well into the forties, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and the University of Pennsylvania were still staffed almost entirely by old-stock Protestants."[7] Of the three, Princeton University was traditionally the preferred choice of the Southern upper class.[8]
The Saturday Review found in 1963 that Harvard, Yale, and Princeton enrolled 45% of boys on the New York Social Register. The University of Pennsylvania was fourth and the other Ivy League members had far fewer, below such schools as Trinity College and the University of Virginia.[10] That year Nathaniel Burt described the social prestige of the Big Three:
It is, above all, the national social prestige of the Big Three which is competition with the purely local social prestige of the University [of Pennsylvania]. Upper-class boys from all over the country, including Philadelphia, go to Harvard, Yale, and Princeton. Only from Philadelphia do upper-class boys go in any significant numbers to Penn. This is of course a universal national phenomenon. The pattern of upper-class male college preference, as deduced from a counting of noses in the various Social Registers, can be summed up as "The Big Three and a Local Favorite."[11]
Burt continued, "Every city sends or has sent its Socially Registered sons to Harvard, Yale, and Princeton, in some preferred order, and to one local institution. This order varies. New York sets the pattern with Yale first, Harvard second, Princeton third, then Columbia. St. Louis and Baltimore are Princeton towns. Most other cities (Chicago, Cleveland, Cincinnati) are Yale towns. Only Boston, and occasionally Washington, are Harvard towns."
Anonymous
11/09/2017 16:11
Subject: Multi-generation Princeton double-legacy. DC doesn't want to go there...help
Anonymous wrote:Princeton was historically the finishing school of the slave-owning, southern elites. Just saying.
Interesting. What are Yale, Harvard, Penn, and Brown's historical reps?
Anonymous
11/09/2017 15:11
Subject: Multi-generation Princeton double-legacy. DC doesn't want to go there...help
Princeton was historically the finishing school of the slave-owning, southern elites. Just saying.