Anonymous wrote:OP you seem to not understand that even though folks around here make more money, we have much higher living expenses. Our HHI is $180 and we live in DC. Mortgage is $1,800 and we have two kids in daycare at a neighborhood place run in a church basement for $2,400/month, which is pretty cheap for two kids under two in D.C.

My older sister and her family live in rural Indiana. Her HHI is $55k. Their mortgage is $300. Until recently they had two kids in daycare as well and that was by far heir biggest expense at $500/month.

Point is, our basic living expenses eat up a much larger portion of our income than what my sister's family does, even though we make several times what she does.

No one is debating that the COL is high in DC and other major metro areas. The fact still remains that 180k is still not poor/lower middle like some would suggest on these boards.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP you seem to not understand that even though folks around here make more money, we have much higher living expenses. Our HHI is $180 and we live in DC. Mortgage is $1,800 and we have two kids in daycare at a neighborhood place run in a church basement for $2,400/month, which is pretty cheap for two kids under two in D.C.

My older sister and her family live in rural Indiana. Her HHI is $55k. Their mortgage is $300. Until recently they had two kids in daycare as well and that was by far heir biggest expense at $500/month.

Point is, our basic living expenses eat up a much larger portion of our income than what my sister's family does, even though we make several times what she does.

So many people here seem not to understand that choosing to live in a major city is an expensive lifestyle choice. Most people living in rural America realize that the mere ability to live within a major city is outside of their budget... living in a city is not a middle class lifestyle (at least not if it comes with all the other things people seem to be associating with "middle class"). I grew up in the rural Midwest and knew many people who commuted 90 miles to the nearest city for work every day because they did not see it as financially feasible to live closer. Living in a city, then calling yourself middle class despite having an income in the top 5% of the country ($214,462 or above) is like choosing to buy a mansion then complaining about not being able to afford a "middle class car" because of your mortgage. There is nothing wrong with living in a city, it gives access to a lot of great amenities, culture, educational opportunities, white collar jobs, short commutes, etc that rural America does not have. But it comes at a cost. If you make over $100-150k you are not middle class even if you choose to live in a high cost of living area (That being said, since so many people do live in the city with much lower incomes, I'm pretty sure it's elitist to consider yourself middle class at a $300k HHI even if just comparing yourself to the locals).

Using your logic everyone making over 33k is rich http://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/050615/are-you-top-one-percent-world.asp

It's all relative to where you live, drill down to country and neighborhood.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread is talking about how ppl with your income that feel like they aren't getting by.

This thread is about an utter misunderstanding of income and class.

A married prole couple could easily make $100k or more. They're still not middle class.

A married middle class couple could easily make $200k or more and not be upper middle class.

Until you don't have to work because of your wealth, you're not upper class.

And unless you inherited your wealth, you'll never be at the top class.

If they are not middle class - then what are they???

Middle class. Married couple, no kids, 450k mortgage, 2 Hondas, no debt, net worth is 2.5MM (home equity is 500k of that). We're definitely middle class in this area.

OMG. You are the problem and you don't even realize it.

How can you say a $2.5MM net worth is middle class with a straight face?

Anonymous wrote:"We drive old cars!"

I think this has been settled for a long time. ALL Americans live in the belief that they are middle class whether they are struggling with a retail job in southwest Virginia or sending their kids to private school even though they are in the Bethesda-Chevy Chase school cluster.

...and that's the problem. Until the upper income recognize that they are showing how out of touch they are in comparison to the rest of the country, they will alienate voters. Especially outrageous is when people on DCUM see an individual earning $100,000 as "poor."

My brother and SIL earn about $140,000, with one toddler. They really wanted to move to Bethesda for the top school district and closer access to his job but it was too expensive, and so they settled for Gaithersburg. Living in DC? Out of consideration entirely, even though my brother works In the city. It's a long Metro ride in, but that's what he and real middle-income households have to do.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP you seem to not understand that even though folks around here make more money, we have much higher living expenses. Our HHI is $180 and we live in DC. Mortgage is $1,800 and we have two kids in daycare at a neighborhood place run in a church basement for $2,400/month, which is pretty cheap for two kids under two in D.C.

My older sister and her family live in rural Indiana. Her HHI is $55k. Their mortgage is $300. Until recently they had two kids in daycare as well and that was by far heir biggest expense at $500/month.

Point is, our basic living expenses eat up a much larger portion of our income than what my sister's family does, even though we make several times what she does.

So many people here seem not to understand that choosing to live in a major city is an expensive lifestyle choice. Most people living in rural America realize that the mere ability to live within a major city is outside of their budget... living in a city is not a middle class lifestyle (at least not if it comes with all the other things people seem to be associating with "middle class"). I grew up in the rural Midwest and knew many people who commuted 90 miles to the nearest city for work every day because they did not see it as financially feasible to live closer. Living in a city, then calling yourself middle class despite having an income in the top 5% of the country ($214,462 or above) is like choosing to buy a mansion then complaining about not being able to afford a "middle class car" because of your mortgage. There is nothing wrong with living in a city, it gives access to a lot of great amenities, culture, educational opportunities, white collar jobs, short commutes, etc that rural America does not have. But it comes at a cost. If you make over $100-150k you are not middle class even if you choose to live in a high cost of living area (That being said, since so many people do live in the city with much lower incomes, I'm pretty sure it's elitist to consider yourself middle class at a $300k HHI even if just comparing yourself to the locals).

Yes, this! The high-income people are just not getting it. It's like talking to a wall.

These complainers could take that $250,000 HHI, still keeping their DC jobs, and move out 45 minutes where housing is half the price, and other expenses are significantly lower as well. That's what people in the real middle class do - they can't afford the city life. But it is only because these high earners have so much money coming in that they can afford to live in a major city in the first place.

It's as if I moved to Manhattan making $400.000' and then started complaining that my rent is $5000 for a little apartment - and that I'm really a middle class guy like the rest of America, once you factor in my higher living expenses. BUT....I could move out to Bethpage, LI and live like a king. The people in Bethpage (I just picked an example of a real middle to lower-middle income town) will see him as a 1 percenter, and correctly so.

But the underlying point is that when these upper-income people keep insisting how it's a middle-class lifestyle on $350,000 in the city, they are coming across as out-of-touch snobs to the majority of people who can't afford the city at all, and in fact are just getting by on 25% of that income.

"We drive old cars!"

I think this has been settled for a long time. ALL Americans live in the belief that they are middle class whether they are struggling with a retail job in southwest Virginia or sending their kids to private school even though they are in the Bethesda-Chevy Chase school cluster.

Anonymous wrote:OP you seem to not understand that even though folks around here make more money, we have much higher living expenses. Our HHI is $180 and we live in DC. Mortgage is $1,800 and we have two kids in daycare at a neighborhood place run in a church basement for $2,400/month, which is pretty cheap for two kids under two in D.C.

My older sister and her family live in rural Indiana. Her HHI is $55k. Their mortgage is $300. Until recently they had two kids in daycare as well and that was by far heir biggest expense at $500/month.

Point is, our basic living expenses eat up a much larger portion of our income than what my sister's family does, even though we make several times what she does.

So many people here seem not to understand that choosing to live in a major city is an expensive lifestyle choice. Most people living in rural America realize that the mere ability to live within a major city is outside of their budget... living in a city is not a middle class lifestyle (at least not if it comes with all the other things people seem to be associating with "middle class"). I grew up in the rural Midwest and knew many people who commuted 90 miles to the nearest city for work every day because they did not see it as financially feasible to live closer. Living in a city, then calling yourself middle class despite having an income in the top 5% of the country ($214,462 or above) is like choosing to buy a mansion then complaining about not being able to afford a "middle class car" because of your mortgage. There is nothing wrong with living in a city, it gives access to a lot of great amenities, culture, educational opportunities, white collar jobs, short commutes, etc that rural America does not have. But it comes at a cost. If you make over $100-150k you are not middle class even if you choose to live in a high cost of living area (That being said, since so many people do live in the city with much lower incomes, I'm pretty sure it's elitist to consider yourself middle class at a $300k HHI even if just comparing yourself to the locals).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:



I think you need to reexamine your life. You sound mean and angry. What's wrong? Upset you don't make $350k/year?

Ha, not at all. I'm not actually the OP so I have no skin in the game, I just stepped in because the claim that a family that makes $350,000 a year couldn't afford to fly first class to Europe unless they had an inheritance was so laughable I had to say something

I'm not the idiot who keeps insulting the other poster about her 100k income, but seriously, a family with HHI of 350k cannot afford a first class trip to Europe without outside help, saving for years, or running out of money for other things. In this area, 350k will get you a middle class lifestyle, nothing more. Expenses have gone up, and a 6 figure income doesn't get you much. To the people making less than 250k in this or other hcol area, do you have everything a middle class lifestyle provides without struggling? A family of at least 4, 3-4 bedroom house in a nice, safe neighborhood zoned to good schools, couple of moderate vacations a year, able to help with college because expenses have risen astronomically?

HHI of about 220K and yes, we actually do.

Really? Show us the breakdown of your income. How many kids? Where do you live? Be specific

OP you seem to not understand that even though folks around here make more money, we have much higher living expenses. Our HHI is $180 and we live in DC. Mortgage is $1,800 and we have two kids in daycare at a neighborhood place run in a church basement for $2,400/month, which is pretty cheap for two kids under two in D.C.

My older sister and her family live in rural Indiana. Her HHI is $55k. Their mortgage is $300. Until recently they had two kids in daycare as well and that was by far heir biggest expense at $500/month.

Point is, our basic living expenses eat up a much larger portion of our income than what my sister's family does, even though we make several times what she does.

Anonymous wrote:http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/dfs/olderadultservices/pdf/federal-poverty-guidelines.pdf


A little reality check for people who really think making 100K/year would qualify a family for public assistance in this area. I agree with OP-so many of these posters are so out of touch with reality.

Thank you for your support! I actually picked up a little troll who keeps saying that I have self-esteem issues over being so poor with my $100,000 salary - and that I'm close to qualifying for welfare. Geez......

For others, here's an interesting study by PEW research as to what percent are middle class in any given city, and for that middle class segment, what the median family income is. For Washington, DC, 49% of the people are middle-class, and the median middle class HHI income is $79,380. And this is family, not individual.

http://www.businessinsider.com/what-middle-income-residents-earn-in-major-us-cities-2016-6/#-15

http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/dfs/olderadultservices/pdf/federal-poverty-guidelines.pdf


A little reality check for people who really think making 100K/year would qualify a family for public assistance in this area. I agree with OP-so many of these posters are so out of touch with reality.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:



I think you need to reexamine your life. You sound mean and angry. What's wrong? Upset you don't make $350k/year?

Ha, not at all. I'm not actually the OP so I have no skin in the game, I just stepped in because the claim that a family that makes $350,000 a year couldn't afford to fly first class to Europe unless they had an inheritance was so laughable I had to say something

I'm not the idiot who keeps insulting the other poster about her 100k income, but seriously, a family with HHI of 350k cannot afford a first class trip to Europe without outside help, saving for years, or running out of money for other things. In this area, 350k will get you a middle class lifestyle, nothing more. Expenses have gone up, and a 6 figure income doesn't get you much. To the people making less than 250k in this or other hcol area, do you have everything a middle class lifestyle provides without struggling? A family of at least 4, 3-4 bedroom house in a nice, safe neighborhood zoned to good schools, couple of moderate vacations a year, able to help with college because expenses have risen astronomically?

HHI of about 220K and yes, we actually do.

OP here. I'm glad you're rolling your eyes! The PP above you is challenging you that you cannot have a middle class life here on less than $250K. How do you think that makes the family making $100K feel? Or $80K? Because they live here too. And they vote!

....and one more thing....

There's been additional debate about "middle income" vs "middle class." My point is that you - as a $300,000 HHI putting kids through private school and having to fly coach (shudder) to Europe - are NOT seen as middle class by 90% of the country. You are seen as wealthy. Rich, even. And when you claim that you are middle class, you are telling people that are earning around $70K or less (many of whom are college graduates) that they're lower class. NOT a way to win over people at the ballot box.

OMG. I am dying!

No, not literally. I'm the OP, and I came back to take a look at the debate here, and the comments (many of them) are demonstrating precisely what I'm talking about. You are such smart people, and I don't understand why there are such blinders on with this topic.

I opened the thread by remarking that so many of the so-called "liberal elitists" (I know...I know...) view a professional who earns a salary of $100,000 "below average" and even lower-class (and almost qualify for government assistance, according to one person!) and worry whether they are on track with a $3 million retirement fund in their mid-40s. I pointed out that the perspective of what "good money" is are so skewed by many of the high-earning Costal "elites" (there's that word again) that they are alienating your average-earning American, who manages to get by on $50,000 or $60,000 a year (family income) - and that it's showing up at the ballot box.

Some of you got this; most did not. You guys are claiming that $450,000 is still middle class, and that $350,000 might be "comfortable" but it's not all that luxurious. Sure, you have a $1 million dollar home and send your children to private school, but....hey....that's pretty run-of-the-mill, isn't it? Or discussions about whether or not you fly first class or coach on European vacations, implying that it's the former that moves one into the upper class.

Hello?? People! The average HHI in the country is $54,000. Only about 10% of those 55+ have $25,000 or more socked away for retirement. To them, a person earning $100K (or $200K per couple) is like heaven on earth. That's the real world, where the largest voting bloc lives. Democrats are driving them away in buckets. Like that guy at the Democratic fundraiser, who remarked to someone he didn't even know (and whose career he didn't know either) about how it's impossible to live on $80,000. Completely out-of-touch.

And I hear all this about how you really need $350K to have a decent house in DC and send your kids to good private schools. But again, that's a challenge of the affluent. The fact that you can do it at all shows that you are upper-income (probably the top 2% or 3%), as most people - the true "middle" - have to live out in the 'burbs in a modest house or, heaven forbid - an apartment rental. (One out of three adults rent.)

If Democrats want to win at the polls, the upper-income will have to start showing they recognize - and emphasize with - the middle class, the real middle class. Otherwise, the lower-middle and working class will align with the Republicans again.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:



I think you need to reexamine your life. You sound mean and angry. What's wrong? Upset you don't make $350k/year?

Ha, not at all. I'm not actually the OP so I have no skin in the game, I just stepped in because the claim that a family that makes $350,000 a year couldn't afford to fly first class to Europe unless they had an inheritance was so laughable I had to say something

I'm not the idiot who keeps insulting the other poster about her 100k income, but seriously, a family with HHI of 350k cannot afford a first class trip to Europe without outside help, saving for years, or running out of money for other things. In this area, 350k will get you a middle class lifestyle, nothing more. Expenses have gone up, and a 6 figure income doesn't get you much. To the people making less than 250k in this or other hcol area, do you have everything a middle class lifestyle provides without struggling? A family of at least 4, 3-4 bedroom house in a nice, safe neighborhood zoned to good schools, couple of moderate vacations a year, able to help with college because expenses have risen astronomically?

HHI of about 220K and yes, we actually do.