You have a few weeks worth of childcare and grandma wants the mornings to rest and get things done and so took it upon herself to find, register and pay for half day camp that happens to be at a church and your bitching about it? I bet you preach tolerance all the time don't you but five days of limited exposure and your flipping out. Do you even know what happen at Bible School? They don't sit around reading text from the New Testament. They will sing this little light of mine, make crafts, play games and eat a snack.

Anonymous wrote:

And if you don't make an effort in this society, your kids turn out Christian regardless of what you believe.

I was in agreement with you until here. I'm Jewish, I have made no effort whatsoever, and my kids have turned out to be atheists and are pretty into being atheists at an early age. Of course, like everything else, it is going to depend largely on the friends that kids associate with. I don't think OP should send her kids to the camp, but no need to overgeneralize.

This is me you're quoting up above and I probably wasn't being clear. I didn't mean that the kids turn out Christian in the sense that they're believers. I meant they turn out "Christian" in the sense that they have the same mainstream cultural identity as the rest of the country. They don't learn Jewish traditions, they don't care about them particularly, they don't identify as Jewish -- even as Jewish atheists.

My kids are almost 16 and 13 1/2, and neither of them is "religious." But they have both had bar/bat mitzvahs, the older one got confirmed this year (his choice), and they both identify as Jewish. Again, this was important to me not because I felt that either of my kids needed to believe in God, or be practicing Jews, but because I wanted them to understand where they come from.

That's what the OP's in laws are trying to disrupt. They are trying to instill a different identity in these kids that is counter to what the parents have agreed on. It's hard enough raising Jewish kids ...

I'd be done with these in-laws in a hot minute.

This is about defying parents' wishes and substituting judgment in an area that is 100% the parents' territory. This isn't Popsicles before dinner. It's a sign that they do not plan to treat OP and her spouse as the parents.

Run.

Set limits and put them on double - secret probation (from Animal House).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op if your in laws go to a mega bible church than you knew that this was bound to happen at some point. My mother has caught on that I don't buy it either (wasp here but with hard core mom)and she proselytizes a bit to my kids each time we visit and I am sure prays for us every day. . I butt in when it gets too much but have used it as an opportunity to talk about the social psychology and near universality of religion of all stripes. My kids see this religion as part of grandma but they know that others have different religions and some have none and that whatever speaks to them as they grow up is fine.

I can understand why the prostelyzing bothers you, but what is wrong with her praying for you everyday? If you don't believe in God, it hardly hurts you or your kids if she prays for you. Would you be this upset if she was New Agey and said she was burning herbs for you and consulting tarot cards. I don't believe in those things, but it doesn't harm me if someone feels like they are doing it on my behalf. What matters is that they care, right?

Not PP, but that praying is probably "Please God let my heathen child see the light and become Christian and bring her children to Christianity." It's a daily exercise in thinking about what your daughter is doing wrong with her life and her parenting. It doesn't hurt you, but it's sure as fuck annoying.

And if you don't make an effort in this society, your kids turn out Christian regardless of what you believe.

I was in agreement with you until here. I'm Jewish, I have made no effort whatsoever, and my kids have turned out to be atheists and are pretty into being atheists at an early age. Of course, like everything else, it is going to depend largely on the friends that kids associate with. I don't think OP should send her kids to the camp, but no need to overgeneralize.

Anonymous wrote:Think of the kids! Bible camp sucks!

+100 bible camp made me an atheist.

Think of the kids! Bible camp sucks!

There is a huge difference between being exposed to different religions and being told what you believe is wrong, that you're going to hell, and that your family is going hell.

I still remember a time in childhood during VBS when we were asked to write down the names of people we knew who didn't believe in Jesus "to pray for." We were warned, if they didn't believe, they'd go to hell-I was terrified.

The OP and her DH made the correct choice not to send them.

OP, you totally made the right call in cancelling your trip. It's clear from your posts that your inlaws don't respect you and your husband's decision to raise Jewish kids. Even if you had convinced yourself that a week of Bible school was harmless (and, as a fellow Jew, I agree with you that it isn't), your inlaws would have used this as an opening for further evangelism.

So many people who have posted here seem to have no understanding of just how hard it is to raise Jewish kids in a Christian society. This is not about diversity. The kids can learn about other religious practices when they're a little older and have a firmer sense of their own Jewish identities. Right now, it's a very precarious thing and the prevailing message from society (especially to little kids, with Christmas and other kinds of celebrations) is that "everyone" is Christian. Your inlaws are trying to get to your kids when they're young and undermine your efforts to establish their Jewish identity. You and your husband did well to prevent this.

And just to be clear here, in case anyone thinks I'm a fire breather, I'm not. I'm an atheist and a Reform Jew who cares about Jewish cultural identity and Jewish values. I did NOT want to raise Christian kids. And if you don't make an effort in this society, your kids turn out Christian regardless of what you believe.

Ok, I have only read two responses, but what the fuck. For background, I am Catholic, I majored in religious studies in college and I am very interested in learning about other religions myself and having my kids do so. But bible camp (against the parents' wishes!) is not "learning about other religions". What this grandma did is so far over the line, especially in light of the LONG history of Christians forcing their beliefs on Jews. I am so angry at this grandmother, I can't even.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Or, I would tell her, "we would love for the kids to come visit you for the week but we are not comfortable with them attending bible camp. If that's a problem we will make alternate arrangements."

+1

Completely inappropriate, but I guess the reactions on this thread illustrate that some people don't get it-- just like most people don't understand what's annoying about the term "old testament" (or even "judeo-christian values"). (and fwiwi, I actually sent my kid to a pre-school run by a church but it was a younger age and they weren't there to learn religion).

NP: I get the problem with Judeo Christian values but what is wrong with old testament? Have never heard this before and would like to be educated.

It's not a term Jews would ever use because it's part of the whole idea that Judaism was made "obsolete" by Christianity.

Thanks - I didn't know that and appreciate you taking time to respond.

NP here. That's interesting. I don't have that association, as "new" could also be upstart or Johnny-come-lately, but I'll keep this in mind. Is there a correct term to use, or is the point that you don't split the Bible into two halves?

The point is that we don't have the New Testament at all, so there's no need to distinguish between them for us - the "Old Testament" is all we have. We call it the Tanach. FWIW, I'm an NP, I'm Jewish and I'm not offended if someone refers to it as the Old Testament!
On the OP, I would also be really really bothered if my MIL did this. A camp that takes place at a church - no problem. A camp specifically called "Bible Camp"? Yes, there's a problem. I'm delighted for my Jewish children to learn about other religions, so a multifaith camp would be great, but not in an evangelical environment.

Anonymous wrote:Op if your in laws go to a mega bible church than you knew that this was bound to happen at some point. My mother has caught on that I don't buy it either (wasp here but with hard core mom)and she proselytizes a bit to my kids each time we visit and I am sure prays for us every day. . I butt in when it gets too much but have used it as an opportunity to talk about the social psychology and near universality of religion of all stripes. My kids see this religion as part of grandma but they know that others have different religions and some have none and that whatever speaks to them as they grow up is fine.

I can understand why the prostelyzing bothers you, but what is wrong with her praying for you everyday? If you don't believe in God, it hardly hurts you or your kids if she prays for you. Would you be this upset if she was New Agey and said she was burning herbs for you and consulting tarot cards. I don't believe in those things, but it doesn't harm me if someone feels like they are doing it on my behalf. What matters is that they care, right?

NP--has anyone considered that the grandparents just want to get the kids out of the house for a few hours a day? For some peace and quiet? That's why I sent my kids to VBS. It was fun and games and Jesus loves me. No harm--regardless of your beliefs, youu gotta admit that Jesus was a pretty loving and accepting guy. Kids could learn worse.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Or, I would tell her, "we would love for the kids to come visit you for the week but we are not comfortable with them attending bible camp. If that's a problem we will make alternate arrangements."

+1

Completely inappropriate, but I guess the reactions on this thread illustrate that some people don't get it-- just like most people don't understand what's annoying about the term "old testament" (or even "judeo-christian values"). (and fwiwi, I actually sent my kid to a pre-school run by a church but it was a younger age and they weren't there to learn religion).

NP: I get the problem with Judeo Christian values but what is wrong with old testament? Have never heard this before and would like to be educated.

It's not a term Jews would ever use because it's part of the whole idea that Judaism was made "obsolete" by Christianity.

Thanks - I didn't know that and appreciate you taking time to respond.

NP here. That's interesting. I don't have that association, as "new" could also be upstart or Johnny-come-lately, but I'll keep this in mind. Is there a correct term to use, or is the point that you don't split the Bible into two halves?

Anonymous wrote:Disrespecting parent wishes - - that is what this is people.

Religion, the specifics, can be debated. But the point is ILs are WAY out of line disrespecting the parents.

YESSSSSS