Anonymous wrote:^pp I feel like your advice is good but would be better for someone who is unable to save vs someone who is in massive debt.

It seems like the op is spending too much because of certain choices she's made around her number of children, house, commute and childrens' activities. Until she makes some big changes she's going to have a hard time not ordering convenient food.

Her biggest outflows are related to her home, childcare and two cars. Something has to give because she needs to almost free up an entire salary to go towards the debt. She needs at least 50k a year going to the debt. That's not going to happen by quitting some activities and cooking at home. It's going to happen by moving to an inexpensive apartment, selling a car, changing the childcare situation, etc.

Regardless op needs to do the math. It all comes down to inflow vs outflow. The numbers don't lie. Do the math op. Figure out how you can dedicate 5-6k a month towards the debt and to savings.

I disagree with you, for several reasons. First, while $50k a year toward debt would be great, it is not actually necessary for OP to tackle this situation. Will it take longer with smaller repayments? Of course. But that doesn't mean it's impossible. Lots of people carry a mortgage, students loans and a car loan or two, and still manage to be very financially secure.

Second, in a couple of years when the youngest is in elementary school, one of those three major expenses you've cited will naturally drop dramatically, as long as OP doesn't put that money toward something else (like nicer vacations or more kids activities). A lot people with young kids go through periods where they don't save much while their young children are in childcare, and then make up for it later. On the mortgage thing, didn't OP say her mortgage was $2,500 a month? She's not going to find an apartment for 5 for much less than that unless they move so far out they're looking at 90+ minute commutes for both of them each way, which just isn't good for the kids. I do agree that she can cut kid activities, I addressed that in my advice above. Cars may not be so easy as you say to get out of, if getting rid of a car means having to pay a bunch out of their savings because they're underwater and then they start incurring a bunch of other expenses related to commuting adjustments. If they move far away from their jobs to get the cheaper apartment you mention, getting rid of a car is probably even less feasible and they drive up their fuel costs.

Third, if OP starts with small changes, it may turn into big changes. After a few cuts they may not really notice the small cuts anymore, and seeing that extra $500 a month going toward their debt might motivate them to make bigger changes and pay it off faster. Whether you agree with it or not, OP isn't willing to make big changes right now, and isn't it better to make small changes (with an eye toward bigger changes, like putting former child care money toward debt repayment in a couple of years) than to make no changes at all?

^pp I feel like your advice is good but would be better for someone who is unable to save vs someone who is in massive debt.

It seems like the op is spending too much because of certain choices she's made around her number of children, house, commute and childrens' activities. Until she makes some big changes she's going to have a hard time not ordering convenient food.

Her biggest outflows are related to her home, childcare and two cars. Something has to give because she needs to almost free up an entire salary to go towards the debt. She needs at least 50k a year going to the debt. That's not going to happen by quitting some activities and cooking at home. It's going to happen by moving to an inexpensive apartment, selling a car, changing the childcare situation, etc.

Regardless op needs to do the math. It all comes down to inflow vs outflow. The numbers don't lie. Do the math op. Figure out how you can dedicate 5-6k a month towards the debt and to savings.

OP, I'm going to try responding again. I've posted twice before in this thread with realistic, non-judgmental suggestions, and you haven't acknowledged them (or similar suggestions from others) at all, you've responded only to people you can argue with. If that's the way the thread continues, I'm not wasting my time on this anymore.

Given everything you've posted, I think it might help you to start by taking a longer view of your debt. Just like it seems that a lot of your debt was built up through instant gratification (e.g., I need to pick up more expensive RTH food from TJs because my husband is traveling instead of anticipating the travel and making some freezer meals on the weekend for less money), your approach to debt elimination seems to be seeking instant gratification as well (i.e., who can I hire who will just make this go away). It's not going to work that way, though, so that's a notion you should toss aside right now.

If I've read your posts correctly, you have one child in elementary, one who will be in elementary school next fall, and one who will in elementary school in 2.5 years. As each child enters elementary school, your child care costs should drop significantly, because after care is so much less expensive than daycare, and the cost of summer camp shouldn't completely offset that savings. So accept that until September, while you can make some headway on your debt, it won't be huge. Once your middle child is in kindergarten and your child care costs go down, you can put all of that savings each month toward your debt. Once the youngest is in elementary school, you take that further savings and put it toward cc debt (if you still have it at that point, hopefully you won't) or other financial goals.

In the meantime, you can still find smaller ways to find extra cash to put toward debt, so don't just sit around and wait until September to start tackling this. I'm guessing you're home with the snow today, so get started working on a budget in your preferred system. I like mint, but something else might suit you better. I know you had some security concerns about mint, but I did a lot of research before signing up a few years ago, and security was very well addressed (including the fact that you can't make any changes to your bank or credit card accounts from Mint; the information only goes one direction, from the financial institution to Mint, nothing can go the other way). Mint got great reviews from all the major tech sites for its security. Use that (or whatever you choose) to start categorizing your spending from the past six months.

Once you have your spending categorized, go category by category and really scrutinize it to see if there's any way to cut down the expense -- can you get yourself into a cheaper cell phone plan? Saving on internet costs if you go with slightly slower speed? Do you make a lot of trips to grocery stores that involve impulse purchases, so maybe using Peapod or Harris Teeter express lane might actually save you money (and time) because what you'll save in impulse shopping more than offsets the service fee? Can you try to get into a routine of making freezer meals so you don't do take-out as often? I used to be really bad about take out and prepared foods until I got into a habit of 1-2x a week making a meal that's freezable, and then making a double or triple batch so I could put 1-2 meals into the freezer. Do this regularly with different meals and you can actually get a lot of variety going. Can you limit each child to one activity to save costs? Can you find a local independent place to take you car for maintenance instead of going to the dealership (which is a lot more expensive)?

Then set a firm budget for yourself in a way that's easy to maintain through the month. This is another reason I love Mint -- you can create a budget, and then since your spending is automatically entered and categorized, it's easy to check the app on your phone to see how much you've spend in each category. It's saved me plenty of times when I'm tempted to order pizza for dinner, check the app and see I only have $15 left in the take-out budget and it's only mid-month, so I should skip it and cook that chicken in the refrigerator. Once the budget is set, you'll be left with a fixed amount you can put toward your credit card debt every month. Making that payment should be a top priority. If you have unexpected expenses one month, try to cut back in other categories (e.g., eat some cheaper vegetarian meals instead of expensive meat; cut back by $5 on what you spend on birthday party gifts, etc.). If it's more than you can cover that way, pay for it out of savings and then cut back like this for a few months until you've built your savings back up.

On the summer camp thing, can you tell us what region of the are you're in? We might be able to suggest some substantially cheaper options that people have had good experiences with.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op again. We are navigating the summer camp thing now. $450 (or even higher... Smithsonian camps are closer to $540/week with aftercare!) seems to be pretty standard unless you do a city camp or Ymca type camp, which are ok but not for the whole summer. They aren't always well organized. We are looking at sending kids to stay with relatives for part of the summer.

I honestly think a big problem is the cost of living here. $450/week per child for camp is so crazy. Housing is so expensive. Even food is more expensive. Daycare most expensive in nation. I would love to move somewhere cheaper. But I am a fed and DH also works on the Hill.

DH and I live in Loudoun County (I'm thr poster who got out of 100k in consumer debt in 18mos) and EVERYTHING is more expensive in DC. Not a single summer camp is 450/wk where I live. I'm in a SFH with 4BRS 3.5BAs and a full suite in the basement for our AuPair for 2500/mo. Granted we work in Reston/Tysons, but that is no accident. We didn't want to be in your position, high income and stretched to the max. I really think that people like you who live in DC are outrageous. I simply don't get it whrn there are so many jobs elsewhere. The government doesn't even pay well (relatively speaking). I see no upside. If I need a "DC" experience we just trek it there with the kids.

Op here and I agree with you. I would consider a move out further to outer Fairfax county (w Springfield, Burke, Clifton) or even Prince William, but DH won't because of our commute to DC. I want so badly to move out. All our friends in other parts of the country are doing so much better.

I realize I have made financial mistakes. Using credit cards to help through grad schools and maternity leave. Taking a longer maternity leave and not getting paid. I decided to take lwop for an extra month with each child. But that was precious extra time that I couldn't get back. Now I am trying to make things right or better.

Moving will not help, there are costs to selling and buying a house.

She probably has equity in her home. Selling a house for 900k and buying one for 475k will make a huge dent.

She said she's in a close in burb, bought her house pre-kids, she is living in the solution to all her problems. Massive equity right there.

Then refine the house to pay off all the debt and have one really really HUGE mortgage. But only if they cut day to day costs and cut up their credit cards.

That is the debt shuffle aND a common tool used by people who are outwardly rich and perpetually inwardly poor.

Only option here is a full reset. They are drowning.

They are drowning - but not willing to make changes. The OP mentioned after the original post sending her child to Smithsonian summer camp. Seriously - you have 50K of consumer debt and think this is an option?
If I was in their shoes I would take the SUV and sell it. Purchase a used sedan - most sedans fit 3 boosters. Get rid of the Odessey and buy a Kia. Yes - Honda's last for ever but this is about cash flow right now - not long term investments.

Go on the Michelle Singletary Financial Fast. The reason I am recommending this tool is that this family needs to go cold turkey and stop making excuses (my husband is out of town, it is only pizza, my 6 YO is a gifted musician)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/31/AR2009123103495.html

They have acknowledged they made bad financial choices in the past - but they do not know how to make good choices. Michelle Singletary is good for that.

Once you see how to save $ each month through the financial fast - you apply Dave Ramsey's approach.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op again. We are navigating the summer camp thing now. $450 (or even higher... Smithsonian camps are closer to $540/week with aftercare!) seems to be pretty standard unless you do a city camp or Ymca type camp, which are ok but not for the whole summer. They aren't always well organized. We are looking at sending kids to stay with relatives for part of the summer.

I honestly think a big problem is the cost of living here. $450/week per child for camp is so crazy. Housing is so expensive. Even food is more expensive. Daycare most expensive in nation. I would love to move somewhere cheaper. But I am a fed and DH also works on the Hill.

DH and I live in Loudoun County (I'm thr poster who got out of 100k in consumer debt in 18mos) and EVERYTHING is more expensive in DC. Not a single summer camp is 450/wk where I live. I'm in a SFH with 4BRS 3.5BAs and a full suite in the basement for our AuPair for 2500/mo. Granted we work in Reston/Tysons, but that is no accident. We didn't want to be in your position, high income and stretched to the max. I really think that people like you who live in DC are outrageous. I simply don't get it whrn there are so many jobs elsewhere. The government doesn't even pay well (relatively speaking). I see no upside. If I need a "DC" experience we just trek it there with the kids.

Op here and I agree with you. I would consider a move out further to outer Fairfax county (w Springfield, Burke, Clifton) or even Prince William, but DH won't because of our commute to DC. I want so badly to move out. All our friends in other parts of the country are doing so much better.

I realize I have made financial mistakes. Using credit cards to help through grad schools and maternity leave. Taking a longer maternity leave and not getting paid. I decided to take lwop for an extra month with each child. But that was precious extra time that I couldn't get back. Now I am trying to make things right or better.

Moving will not help, there are costs to selling and buying a house.

She probably has equity in her home. Selling a house for 900k and buying one for 475k will make a huge dent.

She said she's in a close in burb, bought her house pre-kids, she is living in the solution to all her problems. Massive equity right there.

Then refine the house to pay off all the debt and have one really really HUGE mortgage. But only if they cut day to day costs and cut up their credit cards.

That is the debt shuffle aND a common tool used by people who are outwardly rich and perpetually inwardly poor.

Only option here is a full reset. They are drowning.

As I hope you realize by now, you are in deep and won't be able to get out without making changes you will find uncomfortable. As a jumpstart, I would consider paying off most of your credit card debt with your 50k savings. You are paying high interest on that money that you can't afford. If an emergency happens (a real emergency, not paying music camp fees) and you have to charge it, you won't be any worse off than you are now with the balance.

You need to work on your monthly cash flow as well. You need to cut expenses or increase income, starting now. Every time you purchase something, ask yourself if you honestly really need it. Once you get a little cash flow breathing room, rebuild your emergency fund and then start paying down the cars faster. Seriously though, if it doesn't hurt, you aren't doing enough. Good luck!

Anonymous wrote:The OP is so far behind that I'm not sure she'll ever catch up!

Let's say she does sell the cars, move etc and is able to dedicate 5k a month it debt service. That's 60k a year. But she has 250k of debt. So that's almost five years to pay down the credit card debt and student loans.

I know she doesn't want to sell her house and move but I don't see any other options.

Also it seems the husband isn't on board which will prove all of this impossible. They probably need to listen to Dave Ramsey together or go to some sort of counselor. This problem will only get worse and worse. Eventually they won't be able to make their car payment. Then they will be behind on their mortgage.

Five years to get to zero, then ten more to save for college for thier children, then then more to save for retirement. Sounds like a plan (and life for that matter)

The OP is so far behind that I'm not sure she'll ever catch up!

Let's say she does sell the cars, move etc and is able to dedicate 5k a month it debt service. That's 60k a year. But she has 250k of debt. So that's almost five years to pay down the credit card debt and student loans.

I know she doesn't want to sell her house and move but I don't see any other options.

Also it seems the husband isn't on board which will prove all of this impossible. They probably need to listen to Dave Ramsey together or go to some sort of counselor. This problem will only get worse and worse. Eventually they won't be able to make their car payment. Then they will be behind on their mortgage.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op again. We are navigating the summer camp thing now. $450 (or even higher... Smithsonian camps are closer to $540/week with aftercare!) seems to be pretty standard unless you do a city camp or Ymca type camp, which are ok but not for the whole summer. They aren't always well organized. We are looking at sending kids to stay with relatives for part of the summer.

I honestly think a big problem is the cost of living here. $450/week per child for camp is so crazy. Housing is so expensive. Even food is more expensive. Daycare most expensive in nation. I would love to move somewhere cheaper. But I am a fed and DH also works on the Hill.

DH and I live in Loudoun County (I'm thr poster who got out of 100k in consumer debt in 18mos) and EVERYTHING is more expensive in DC. Not a single summer camp is 450/wk where I live. I'm in a SFH with 4BRS 3.5BAs and a full suite in the basement for our AuPair for 2500/mo. Granted we work in Reston/Tysons, but that is no accident. We didn't want to be in your position, high income and stretched to the max. I really think that people like you who live in DC are outrageous. I simply don't get it whrn there are so many jobs elsewhere. The government doesn't even pay well (relatively speaking). I see no upside. If I need a "DC" experience we just trek it there with the kids.

Op here and I agree with you. I would consider a move out further to outer Fairfax county (w Springfield, Burke, Clifton) or even Prince William, but DH won't because of our commute to DC. I want so badly to move out. All our friends in other parts of the country are doing so much better.

I realize I have made financial mistakes. Using credit cards to help through grad schools and maternity leave. Taking a longer maternity leave and not getting paid. I decided to take lwop for an extra month with each child. But that was precious extra time that I couldn't get back. Now I am trying to make things right or better.

Moving will not help, there are costs to selling and buying a house.

She probably has equity in her home. Selling a house for 900k and buying one for 475k will make a huge dent.

She said she's in a close in burb, bought her house pre-kids, she is living in the solution to all her problems. Massive equity right there.

Then refine the house to pay off all the debt and have one really really HUGE mortgage. But only if they cut day to day costs and cut up their credit cards.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op again. We are navigating the summer camp thing now. $450 (or even higher... Smithsonian camps are closer to $540/week with aftercare!) seems to be pretty standard unless you do a city camp or Ymca type camp, which are ok but not for the whole summer. They aren't always well organized. We are looking at sending kids to stay with relatives for part of the summer.

I honestly think a big problem is the cost of living here. $450/week per child for camp is so crazy. Housing is so expensive. Even food is more expensive. Daycare most expensive in nation. I would love to move somewhere cheaper. But I am a fed and DH also works on the Hill.

DH and I live in Loudoun County (I'm thr poster who got out of 100k in consumer debt in 18mos) and EVERYTHING is more expensive in DC. Not a single summer camp is 450/wk where I live. I'm in a SFH with 4BRS 3.5BAs and a full suite in the basement for our AuPair for 2500/mo. Granted we work in Reston/Tysons, but that is no accident. We didn't want to be in your position, high income and stretched to the max. I really think that people like you who live in DC are outrageous. I simply don't get it whrn there are so many jobs elsewhere. The government doesn't even pay well (relatively speaking). I see no upside. If I need a "DC" experience we just trek it there with the kids.

Op here and I agree with you. I would consider a move out further to outer Fairfax county (w Springfield, Burke, Clifton) or even Prince William, but DH won't because of our commute to DC. I want so badly to move out. All our friends in other parts of the country are doing so much better.

I realize I have made financial mistakes. Using credit cards to help through grad schools and maternity leave. Taking a longer maternity leave and not getting paid. I decided to take lwop for an extra month with each child. But that was precious extra time that I couldn't get back. Now I am trying to make things right or better.

Moving will not help, there are costs to selling and buying a house.

She probably has equity in her home. Selling a house for 900k and buying one for 475k will make a huge dent.

She said she's in a close in burb, bought her house pre-kids, she is living in the solution to all her problems. Massive equity right there.

I agree. Although with the OPs track record I wouldn't be surprised if they did a cash out refi at some point!

Yea, I was thinking that too.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op again. We are navigating the summer camp thing now. $450 (or even higher... Smithsonian camps are closer to $540/week with aftercare!) seems to be pretty standard unless you do a city camp or Ymca type camp, which are ok but not for the whole summer. They aren't always well organized. We are looking at sending kids to stay with relatives for part of the summer.

I honestly think a big problem is the cost of living here. $450/week per child for camp is so crazy. Housing is so expensive. Even food is more expensive. Daycare most expensive in nation. I would love to move somewhere cheaper. But I am a fed and DH also works on the Hill.

DH and I live in Loudoun County (I'm thr poster who got out of 100k in consumer debt in 18mos) and EVERYTHING is more expensive in DC. Not a single summer camp is 450/wk where I live. I'm in a SFH with 4BRS 3.5BAs and a full suite in the basement for our AuPair for 2500/mo. Granted we work in Reston/Tysons, but that is no accident. We didn't want to be in your position, high income and stretched to the max. I really think that people like you who live in DC are outrageous. I simply don't get it whrn there are so many jobs elsewhere. The government doesn't even pay well (relatively speaking). I see no upside. If I need a "DC" experience we just trek it there with the kids.

Op here and I agree with you. I would consider a move out further to outer Fairfax county (w Springfield, Burke, Clifton) or even Prince William, but DH won't because of our commute to DC. I want so badly to move out. All our friends in other parts of the country are doing so much better.

I realize I have made financial mistakes. Using credit cards to help through grad schools and maternity leave. Taking a longer maternity leave and not getting paid. I decided to take lwop for an extra month with each child. But that was precious extra time that I couldn't get back. Now I am trying to make things right or better.

Moving will not help, there are costs to selling and buying a house.

She probably has equity in her home. Selling a house for 900k and buying one for 475k will make a huge dent.

She said she's in a close in burb, bought her house pre-kids, she is living in the solution to all her problems. Massive equity right there.

I agree. Although with the OPs track record I wouldn't be surprised if they did a cash out refi at some point!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op again. We are navigating the summer camp thing now. $450 (or even higher... Smithsonian camps are closer to $540/week with aftercare!) seems to be pretty standard unless you do a city camp or Ymca type camp, which are ok but not for the whole summer. They aren't always well organized. We are looking at sending kids to stay with relatives for part of the summer.

I honestly think a big problem is the cost of living here. $450/week per child for camp is so crazy. Housing is so expensive. Even food is more expensive. Daycare most expensive in nation. I would love to move somewhere cheaper. But I am a fed and DH also works on the Hill.

DH and I live in Loudoun County (I'm thr poster who got out of 100k in consumer debt in 18mos) and EVERYTHING is more expensive in DC. Not a single summer camp is 450/wk where I live. I'm in a SFH with 4BRS 3.5BAs and a full suite in the basement for our AuPair for 2500/mo. Granted we work in Reston/Tysons, but that is no accident. We didn't want to be in your position, high income and stretched to the max. I really think that people like you who live in DC are outrageous. I simply don't get it whrn there are so many jobs elsewhere. The government doesn't even pay well (relatively speaking). I see no upside. If I need a "DC" experience we just trek it there with the kids.

Op here and I agree with you. I would consider a move out further to outer Fairfax county (w Springfield, Burke, Clifton) or even Prince William, but DH won't because of our commute to DC. I want so badly to move out. All our friends in other parts of the country are doing so much better.

I realize I have made financial mistakes. Using credit cards to help through grad schools and maternity leave. Taking a longer maternity leave and not getting paid. I decided to take lwop for an extra month with each child. But that was precious extra time that I couldn't get back. Now I am trying to make things right or better.

Moving will not help, there are costs to selling and buying a house.

She probably has equity in her home. Selling a house for 900k and buying one for 475k will make a huge dent.

She said she's in a close in burb, bought her house pre-kids, she is living in the solution to all her problems. Massive equity right there.

OP, I would look for $1000 in monthly expenses you can start cutting today. You need more but $1000 is doable today. We started cleaning our own house for starters, no cable, yes we both work and make over $200k but have more debt than i feel comfortable with. A weekly budget for food, cash only. If you buy pizza you have to eat pasta another night.

I would consider cutting all college savings and 401k to the match as long as you are disciplined enough to put all that money toward debt and not spend it. If it pains you not to contribute to college or send kid to music camp that will be inspiration for next year. Do it before kids are older and want more material things.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am just stuck on the fact that 2 children in daycare barely getting home by 6pm are in activities after that.

Even if they were not in 50k of debt I don't get this.

And a family that eats out (restaurant, take out, order in, whatever) 3-4 times per week is bleeding a serious amount of cash.

It's fascinating to me how obvious this is to everyone but the OP.

Op here. Yes, one child has music lesson after school pickup. The other activities are on weekends. And we don't eat out 3-4x week. We eat out or get carry out or pizza 1-2x week. Twice if DH is traveling and I am doing all the pickups. But that is something that can go. The music lessons cannot go bc of DCs commitment and dedication to it. This isn't a kid who grudgingly goes to piano lessons, but a kid whose music teacher at school flagged him as gifted, which has proven true thus far. Also the issue with camps.... Music camps aren't cheap.

How old is the child?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op again. We are navigating the summer camp thing now. $450 (or even higher... Smithsonian camps are closer to $540/week with aftercare!) seems to be pretty standard unless you do a city camp or Ymca type camp, which are ok but not for the whole summer. They aren't always well organized. We are looking at sending kids to stay with relatives for part of the summer.

I honestly think a big problem is the cost of living here. $450/week per child for camp is so crazy. Housing is so expensive. Even food is more expensive. Daycare most expensive in nation. I would love to move somewhere cheaper. But I am a fed and DH also works on the Hill.

DH and I live in Loudoun County (I'm thr poster who got out of 100k in consumer debt in 18mos) and EVERYTHING is more expensive in DC. Not a single summer camp is 450/wk where I live. I'm in a SFH with 4BRS 3.5BAs and a full suite in the basement for our AuPair for 2500/mo. Granted we work in Reston/Tysons, but that is no accident. We didn't want to be in your position, high income and stretched to the max. I really think that people like you who live in DC are outrageous. I simply don't get it whrn there are so many jobs elsewhere. The government doesn't even pay well (relatively speaking). I see no upside. If I need a "DC" experience we just trek it there with the kids.

Op here and I agree with you. I would consider a move out further to outer Fairfax county (w Springfield, Burke, Clifton) or even Prince William, but DH won't because of our commute to DC. I want so badly to move out. All our friends in other parts of the country are doing so much better.

I realize I have made financial mistakes. Using credit cards to help through grad schools and maternity leave. Taking a longer maternity leave and not getting paid. I decided to take lwop for an extra month with each child. But that was precious extra time that I couldn't get back. Now I am trying to make things right or better.

Moving will not help, there are costs to selling and buying a house.