Anonymous wrote:

Sure, it's all very simple... among rational, level-headed people. Unfortunately, there are certain women who will claim after the fact that a sexual encounter wasn't consensual when it very much was, whether in a drunk stupor or heat of the moment or what-have-you. So it's very flippant and facile to say consensual sex is acceptable, until someone decides to throw out a false narrative, either out of regret, embarrassment, anger, etc. Of course we should be teaching our boys to be respectful of women and when no means no. But our girls absolutely need to know that false accusations are completely unacceptable and IMO, should be strictly sanctioned. Did anything ever happen to "Jackie," of UVA fame? Any apology from her?

If you were in a drunken stupor, you cannot consent to sex, in which case the sex was not consensual.

Also, if we stop at teaching boys when no means no, we are not teaching our boys (or our girls) about consent. The absence of no does not constitute consent. Only consent constitutes consent.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Frankly, I am less concerned that my daughter will be rape than a girl will have next morning regrets and accuse my don of rape. I saw it happen more than once in college--that and breakup revenge rape claims.

Absolutely agree. I also saw this frequently in college and it's frightening and disgusting. And yes, to the obvious responders: so is rape. But false accusations cannot simply be dismissed because the fact is, they happen often.

I would love some links that show they happen "often."

This is a spot-on article about false accusations.
http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/09/false_rape_accusations_why_must_be_pretend_they_never_happen.html

That's actually a pretty well-balanced article that also outlines the prevelance of rape and how women haven't historically been believed. I believe that any woman who falsely accuses a man of rape should be in big fat trouble for this. Of course some women lie, and that is hugely wrong.

I like the counterpart article to this (also on Slate) that discusses how often rapes aren't even reported. It's terribly sad how many women (and men, too) are terrified to go to authorities for being raped.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Frankly, I am less concerned that my daughter will be rape than a girl will have next morning regrets and accuse my don of rape. I saw it happen more than once in college--that and breakup revenge rape claims.

Absolutely agree. I also saw this frequently in college and it's frightening and disgusting. And yes, to the obvious responders: so is rape. But false accusations cannot simply be dismissed because the fact is, they happen often.

I would love some links that show they happen "often."

This is a spot-on article about false accusations.
http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/09/false_rape_accusations_why_must_be_pretend_they_never_happen.html

I'd like my apology from the men who raped me, and I'm sure my friends that have been raped would like theirs, too.

How the hell is an unconscious person going to say "No?"

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

+1 Seems like maybe the people of past generations had a point in fostering rigid and strict sexual mores among st young folk. So far this free love experiment has just led to more confusion and accusations. If that is so, we can return to the sexual mores of before, no sex before marriage. Full stop. At least society can be upfront about that instead of espousing free love and sex positivity then leading to all this hand wringing over what is acceptable sex and what is not.

I don't know why the hand-wringing. It's very simple.

Acceptable = all involved parties consented
Not acceptable = everything else

Also, the official sexual mores of before may have been no sex before marriage, but what people actually did was very different.

Sure, it's all very simple... among rational, level-headed people. Unfortunately, there are certain women who will claim after the fact that a sexual encounter wasn't consensual when it very much was, whether in a drunk stupor or heat of the moment or what-have-you. So it's very flippant and facile to say consensual sex is acceptable, until someone decides to throw out a false narrative, either out of regret, embarrassment, anger, etc. Of course we should be teaching our boys to be respectful of women and when no means no. But our girls absolutely need to know that false accusations are completely unacceptable and IMO, should be strictly sanctioned. Did anything ever happen to "Jackie," of UVA fame? Any apology from her?

Considering there are over 10 pages of debate over what consent is. Yes, consent in various situations can be very grey and nebulous, even when talking about enthusiastic straightforward consent. .

http://hr.umich.edu/stopabuse/resources/definitions.html

Examples of sexual violence include: discounting the partner's feelings regarding sex; criticizing the partner sexually; touching the partner sexually in inappropriate and uncomfortable ways; demanding sex; forcing partner to strip as a form of humiliation (maybe in front of children), to witness sexual acts, to participate in uncomfortable sex or sex after an episode of violence, to have sex with other people; and using objects and/or weapons to hurt during sex or threats to back up demands for sex.

I see they took the definition for witholding sex off after scrutiny;
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/susan-kruth/university-of-michigan-sexual-violence_b_5910788.html

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Frankly, I am less concerned that my daughter will be rape than a girl will have next morning regrets and accuse my don of rape. I saw it happen more than once in college--that and breakup revenge rape claims.

Absolutely agree. I also saw this frequently in college and it's frightening and disgusting. And yes, to the obvious responders: so is rape. But false accusations cannot simply be dismissed because the fact is, they happen often.

I would love some links that show they happen "often."

Anonymous wrote:Frankly, I am less concerned that my daughter will be rape than a girl will have next morning regrets and accuse my don of rape. I saw it happen more than once in college--that and breakup revenge rape claims.

Absolutely agree. I also saw this frequently in college and it's frightening and disgusting. And yes, to the obvious responders: so is rape. But false accusations cannot simply be dismissed because the fact is, they happen often.

I don't see those definitions that are in the article on the actual page - http://hr.umich.edu/stopabuse/resources/definitions.html

Anonymous wrote:So taking a step back - if we, whom I'm guessing are majority women - can't even agree on what constitutes rape, doesn't that impact how you want your sons treating women?

My best friend from high school and I were talking about this the other day...how much intense pressure some of the guys would put on us, and how while we don't think we would have said rape at the time, it was definitely next to impossible to say no.

What I would want for my son is to not be the guy putting that kind of pressure on a girl. I would want my son to not be the "But I'm the nice guy, so you should have sex with me" guy. I don't want my son to be in the position where there is a gray line.

Now, when it comes to girls pressuring him, that's a fully different conversation, and one that should also be had, but not at the expense of him not being the gray line guy.

We also need to teach boys not to pressure each other. College boys can be brutal to their virgin friends.

Anonymous wrote:I think the tangent and bizarre focus on the break-up example is strange, and if anything is diluting this topic, it's that. As others have stated, rape is a real problem. Boys not truly understanding consent is a real problem.

So can we all just stop with the more far-fetched scenario that is being thrown out here? There are coercion examples that would most definitely constitute as rape. I don't see anyone here saying that every situation where a guy is a jerk and begs for sex to be rape, but I do see a lot of dismissal of the overall facts about rape, and how a lot of guys just don't get it.

In other words, all this nitpicking bullshit is stupid, and I think most of us agree more than we disagree.

However that was a perfect example of the dilution of the rape definition. The previous posters were talking about verbal emotional manipulation as now being rape. Yes verbal emotional manipulation may be horrible, but it is not rape.

Withholding affection as sexual assault as campus policy happened at University of Michigan: http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/19448/
he other examples, such as “discounting the partner’s feelings regarding sex … criticizing the partner sexually … withholding sex and affection,” are found.
Also included in the definition of sexual violence is the example of having “sex with other people.”
yes bad behavior - but not sexual assault

As for the study saying that campus men would get away with rape if they could: Another example of a flawed biased study aimed at furthering an agenda. Just like the one in 5 women surveys being raped where even their authors have admitted is not representative. I trust the Department of Justice survey as it is biased and systematically designed - showing that your daughter is safer on campus than off.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/396233/1-3-college-men-would-rape-woman-stat-based-survey-73-dudes-katherine-timpf
Seventy-three men from a single college do not accurately represent the views of “college men.” A survey at one school is of course not representative, and such a small sample size statistically means the 31.7 percent number could probably be off by double digits. Sure, the outlets eventually explain how small the study was in the body of their posts. But we live in an age where most people don’t read beyond headlines or tweets. This is how false information spreads. Many people will see this “news” and assume that it represents the views of college men in general, because that is what these headlines (falsely) assert. This movement’s repeated use of these tactics, like the debunked one-in-five-sexually-assaulted statistic, will eventually discredit it — something that is particularly devastating when we’re talking about an issue as serious as rape.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What I am disagreeing with, even in the title of this thread is the assumption that young men are demons that needed to be taught not to rape or to disrespect women. Everyone understands rape is awful. There are some evil people that even though rape is awful will decide to do it. However the majority of young men are people trying to figure it out. However in some victim crusade people are determined to demonize them, leading to a fake campus rape hysteria that has been debunked.

This is true, if you define rape as a strange man jumping out of the bushes and physically assaulting a woman. If you define rape as sex without consent, then no, everybody does not understand that rape is awful. Unfortunately.

Also, the great majority of rapes are not committed by confused men who mean well and are just trying to figure things out. They are committed by men who know that they are engaging in sex without consent.

https://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/

That's a great link, and you are spot on that too many people think that rape means some guy jumping out of the bushes, when it reality the rapist is often someone that the victim already knows. I knew my rapist - he was in the dorm next to mine, and I even thought he was cute. That type of guy is much more likely to rape than a stranger in the middle of the night.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

All well and good. However it still does not answer the question what is consent?
In these cases you guys are crying rape even if both people are drunk and eagerly consenting if the girl wakes up later and decides she did not consent, it is rape to you even though the guy was just as drunk.
if a girl says yes to sex but after the sexat decides she really meant no under your definition it is rape too.
The goal posts keep shifting. In some campuses now a hug is sexual assault. So people should just stop hugging each other. Other policies include withholding affection as sexual assault.

Instead of hand wringing just make it clear and say no sex. Full stop.

Depending on how you drunk you are, you might be able to consent, or you might not be able to consent. If you are incapacitatingly drunk, you cannot consent. You can agree, but you cannot consent. What's more, this has nothing to do with what you might think after you wake up the next morning. If you were sober enough to consent last night, but this morning upon sober consideration you decide it was a bad idea, that is not rape. If you not sober enough last night to able to consent, that was rape. You = anybody, by the way; not just women.

Also, don't hug people who don't want to be hugged.

As for supposed campus policies that include withholding affection as sexual assault, please provide a specific reference to a specific campus's specific policy.

But yes, certainly, if you don't think that you can navigate the complexities of "only have sex with people if you are certain that they are consenting", then it is best just to avoid all sexual contact.

Great, great post, and one that shows that no, not everyone understands what rape is.

Anonymous wrote:What I am disagreeing with, even in the title of this thread is the assumption that young men are demons that needed to be taught not to rape or to disrespect women. Everyone understands rape is awful. There are some evil people that even though rape is awful will decide to do it. However the majority of young men are people trying to figure it out. However in some victim crusade people are determined to demonize them, leading to a fake campus rape hysteria that has been debunked.

This is true, if you define rape as a strange man jumping out of the bushes and physically assaulting a woman. If you define rape as sex without consent, then no, everybody does not understand that rape is awful. Unfortunately.

Also, the great majority of rapes are not committed by confused men who mean well and are just trying to figure things out. They are committed by men who know that they are engaging in sex without consent.

https://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/