Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thank you! I have a sixth-grader, and this is all new to me.

Get used to feeling like this. MCPS likes it this way. The less you know, the better

That has not been my experience in MCPS at all, and my sixth-grader has been in MCPS since kindergarten. There is a lot of information on line, and my child's teachers have always been very willing to answer questions.

Anonymous wrote:What is the purpose of these county-level formatives? What does "formative" really mean...what does it refer to? The concepts are in formation? I wish MCPS would explain their jargon.

I am a PP who "sides" with the OP. I think it's ridiculous that any test doesn't go home to be reviewed with parents if so chosen by student or parents. Why? Because that's how I learned when I was a student and I was a top student with excellent study skills. Part of studying is going over mistakes and re-doing, or at least looking closely at what was missed and understanding why it was missed (careless error? computational error? wrong set-up? teacher grading error? new type of problem--this one happens a lot--the formatives sometimes have problems that don't reflect what was in homework).

The reason I find this especially frustrating is that my kid is not a great math student and he does not have good study skills and his motivation lies in other subjects. And since he is young, I am still in the process of coaching him in study skills and monitoring his work so I know where he needs help. I am effectively his tutor, as many parents are. I don't think that in 45 minutes of going over the test in class time he is able to understand why he made some of his mistakes. I also want to understand how things are graded because in the past he has gotten low scores on things that he did mostly right. Sometimes I have needed to tell him he actually did well and demonstrated pretty good understanding despite getting a C--sometimes the grading is harsh.

Now with more demands for explaining every answer, this is all the more important. I have the type of kid who can figure out the answer in his head and write it down but can't show his work well and can't articulate how he did it. Imagine getting every answer right but getting a C because you could not say how you did it. I want to be able to say, Wow, you did great level problem solving--you really do know what you're doing (so he doesn't think he's terrible at math when he isn't), and now let's work on how to break down the steps you did in your head and write each step down.

There are many reasons to want to see a test that a child studies for and it is ridiculous that parents have to take time off to go in and see a test. It would make more sense to keep quizzes secret because less preparation goes into them but for a test that requires days of studying, to get so little feedback is just bad teaching. If the purpose of giving these formatives is for teachers to be able to assess what kids are grasping and where they need to allocate more teaching time, maybe they shouldn't grade them or make a big deal about them.

I will reiterate, some of these county tests present problems (in both math and English I've seen this) in ways the students haven't been taught. For me it's important to know how my kid does on novel problems, whether it's good or bad. The teachers are not invested in this level of detail and they seem to be fine with kids getting low grades. I do not see any additional intervention offered, so it's up to me. I accept that but I expect to be given the tools and information to help my kid learn and stay afloat. Some people's kids may be more independent or higher performing, but not all kids are like that.

I agree but sadly most parents don't care to help their middle schooler out so they don't give a crap if the tests come home or not.

Anonymous wrote:Thank you! I have a sixth-grader, and this is all new to me.

Get used to feeling like this. MCPS likes it this way. The less you know, the better

What is the purpose of these county-level formatives? What does "formative" really mean...what does it refer to? The concepts are in formation? I wish MCPS would explain their jargon.

I am a PP who "sides" with the OP. I think it's ridiculous that any test doesn't go home to be reviewed with parents if so chosen by student or parents. Why? Because that's how I learned when I was a student and I was a top student with excellent study skills. Part of studying is going over mistakes and re-doing, or at least looking closely at what was missed and understanding why it was missed (careless error? computational error? wrong set-up? teacher grading error? new type of problem--this one happens a lot--the formatives sometimes have problems that don't reflect what was in homework).

The reason I find this especially frustrating is that my kid is not a great math student and he does not have good study skills and his motivation lies in other subjects. And since he is young, I am still in the process of coaching him in study skills and monitoring his work so I know where he needs help. I am effectively his tutor, as many parents are. I don't think that in 45 minutes of going over the test in class time he is able to understand why he made some of his mistakes. I also want to understand how things are graded because in the past he has gotten low scores on things that he did mostly right. Sometimes I have needed to tell him he actually did well and demonstrated pretty good understanding despite getting a C--sometimes the grading is harsh.

Now with more demands for explaining every answer, this is all the more important. I have the type of kid who can figure out the answer in his head and write it down but can't show his work well and can't articulate how he did it. Imagine getting every answer right but getting a C because you could not say how you did it. I want to be able to say, Wow, you did great level problem solving--you really do know what you're doing (so he doesn't think he's terrible at math when he isn't), and now let's work on how to break down the steps you did in your head and write each step down.

There are many reasons to want to see a test that a child studies for and it is ridiculous that parents have to take time off to go in and see a test. It would make more sense to keep quizzes secret because less preparation goes into them but for a test that requires days of studying, to get so little feedback is just bad teaching. If the purpose of giving these formatives is for teachers to be able to assess what kids are grasping and where they need to allocate more teaching time, maybe they shouldn't grade them or make a big deal about them.

I will reiterate, some of these county tests present problems (in both math and English I've seen this) in ways the students haven't been taught. For me it's important to know how my kid does on novel problems, whether it's good or bad. The teachers are not invested in this level of detail and they seem to be fine with kids getting low grades. I do not see any additional intervention offered, so it's up to me. I accept that but I expect to be given the tools and information to help my kid learn and stay afloat. Some people's kids may be more independent or higher performing, but not all kids are like that.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

My kid says she is told ahead of time what kind of test it will be because school tests can be retaken -- county tests can not. The retest process is kind of cool because it gives the kid a chance to correct dumb mistakes, figure out something that wasn't understood, or just try for an improved score. My kid retook a rest and the process was completely transparent to me. Actually, my participation was required.

I am often critical of MCPS but this retest process seems like a large burden on the teachers. When do the students retake the test? Presumably it is not during class time. The participation of the parents is required? This seems like a large burden on parents who cannot get off from work. I am trying to imagine a class of 25 and say 10 students want to retake the test. Does the teacher hold 10 separate sessions with each student to go over the initial test (since the test cannot be taken home)? And she needs to do this for each of her classes? It is hard for me to imagine that this is standard procedure in MCPS but perhaps I am wrong.

The retake is to be scheduled by the student (so the student assumes responsibility for the process...a learning experience in itself). The kids have a study period, so I suppose it can be done then, or during class if there are enough students...or possibly before or after school. I don't know. As the parent, my participation is limited to signing off on having seen the original test (all retakeable tests are school-level, so they come home). I review it, and if my kid chooses to retake it, I can oversee my kid's correction of the incorrect work and completion of additional questions to demonstrate understanding -- she cannot retake the test unless she does all this. By participation, I do not mean that I go to the school to take it with her or observe. That would be crazy. My kid tells me that it's possible to retake tests in all classes for school-level tests. I was told by a teacher that it is meant to be burdensome so kids don't just screw around on tests with the expectation that they can just redo it...they have to really want to improve and take the steps to show they want to learn what they didn't get correct. I get the sense it's so much trouble that there aren't a lot of requests to retake unless there's a serious problem. But obviously there is a process for parents to get all up in their kids' business on these tests...which seems to be something many parents here want.

I have no idea whether this is a process allowed in all schools. Our kid goes to Pyle MS, and this is their process for all school-level (not county-level) tests. County level tests cannot be retaken, and they do not go home. For those, the teacher goes over the tests in class with the students and parents who still want to see the tests can ask to come in to see them.

Anonymous wrote:

My kid says she is told ahead of time what kind of test it will be because school tests can be retaken -- county tests can not. The retest process is kind of cool because it gives the kid a chance to correct dumb mistakes, figure out something that wasn't understood, or just try for an improved score. My kid retook a rest and the process was completely transparent to me. Actually, my participation was required.

I am often critical of MCPS but this retest process seems like a large burden on the teachers. When do the students retake the test? Presumably it is not during class time. The participation of the parents is required? This seems like a large burden on parents who cannot get off from work. I am trying to imagine a class of 25 and say 10 students want to retake the test. Does the teacher hold 10 separate sessions with each student to go over the initial test (since the test cannot be taken home)? And she needs to do this for each of her classes? It is hard for me to imagine that this is standard procedure in MCPS but perhaps I am wrong.

Me too -- we have a new 6th grader and I felt a little overwhelmed at BTSN. Sixth grade now is nothing like when I was a 6th grader. But the teachers have been good about explaining how this works -- our kid got a lot of documents that live in her binder that I spent some time reading through. There was a whole BTSN just to teach the parents how to understand the binder system the school drills into them. In just a month my kid has been transformed -- she was never organized before, but now she's getting things done without needing to be yelled at.

Thank you! I have a sixth-grader, and this is all new to me.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The point is that she didn't feel blindsided or confused about what she was being asked to master. If she told me it was stuff she didn't know or recognize, and she didn't do well, I'd reach out to her teacher and ask to see the summative. But the school formative grade matched the summative, I saw the school test, so what else do I need to know?

PP, could you please explain the difference between summative tests and formative tests as they exist in MCPS? I would find that very helpful!

Sure -- formative exams are like quizzes that students take to show how well they're learning the material. Some are school-level and can come home like graded homework and live in the MS student binders. Some tests are county-level formative assessments and because they're standardized, the kids review them with their teachers in class and then give them back. If I want to see it, I can also ask to see it. My kid says she is told ahead of time what kind of test it will be because school tests can be retaken -- county tests can not. The retest process is kind of cool because it gives the kid a chance to correct dumb mistakes, figure out something that wasn't understood, or just try for an improved score. My kid retook a rest and the process was completely transparent to me. Actually, my participation was required.

Summatives are like finals and are county-level tests. They also don't come home, and they can't be retaken. But as with the county formatives, if the results are out of whack with prior quizzes and homework, I can ask to discuss and review with the teacher. As it was described to me, it's meant to be a building process, building to the summatives. It sounds more complicated than it is...but it is really just midterms and finals... Does that help?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Feeling like running my head into a brick wall with these parents that are justifying that it is okay that they don't see any of their kids tests. Must be nice to have kids that get a 100% on everything

Who said they're parents in mcps? They sounds like screeching muppets without much to say about anything.

I'm stealing the phrase "screeching muppets."

Am I a screeching muppet, or an MCPS administrator? I'm so confused.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Feeling like running my head into a brick wall with these parents that are justifying that it is okay that they don't see any of their kids tests. Must be nice to have kids that get a 100% on everything

Who said they're parents in mcps? They sounds like screeching muppets without much to say about anything.

There we go, right on cue. Explain that (1) school formatives go home and can be reviewed and (2) county tests can be reviewed with the teacher, and you can't possibly be a parent...just a "screaming muppet" with no answers. At least more creative than calling me an admin.

Anonymous wrote:

The point is that she didn't feel blindsided or confused about what she was being asked to master. If she told me it was stuff she didn't know or recognize, and she didn't do well, I'd reach out to her teacher and ask to see the summative. But the school formative grade matched the summative, I saw the school test, so what else do I need to know?

PP, could you please explain the difference between summative tests and formative tests as they exist in MCPS? I would find that very helpful!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Feeling like running my head into a brick wall with these parents that are justifying that it is okay that they don't see any of their kids tests. Must be nice to have kids that get a 100% on everything

Who said they're parents in mcps? They sounds like screeching muppets without much to say about anything.

I'm stealing the phrase "screeching muppets."

Anonymous wrote:

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+1. And if the students study the old tests so that they can do the new one with these changes, that is good enough for me. That is called learning.

I call it cheating, unless MCPS makes all of the old tests available to everybody. And if MCPS does make all of the old tests available to everybody, I call it memorizing what's on the test.

In what way is that cheating, how creative do you think algebra is? If you change around the functions and numbers, and the kids still know how to do them, isn't that your goal?

They should make the old tests available to everybody. After all, there is nothing really new in algebra, but there is also no danger in running out of problems to ask on an exam.

+1
PP is silly. If we want a kid to learn to solve for X in equations like: 2X + 4 = 10, then one year we could use that equation. The next year, we could use 3x + 1 = 10
See how I did that? I just rewrote one question on an algebra exam! It took me 30 seconds!
So, if the exam had 20 questions, I could do it in about 10 minutes. Let's be generous and give me an hour. Whoo-boy.
And if the kid had access to last year's exam, then they would see that this year's exam would include questions like 2X + 4 = 10. And that would not be cheating, because it's a different question. And yet, it's instructive in the sense that it shows what kind of question we want them to be able to solve.
THIS. IS. JUST. NOT. THAT. HARD.

So, then, why can't the kids just study the same materials that they've been using in class all along? Homework, class work and notes? Why the need for the actual test papers if the problems are just variations on a theme?

Or the school-level formatives, which ARE returned? Why is that not enough practice and preparation?

IF in fact, the school-level formatives or quizzes were the same kind of questions, then it would be fine. But that's a big "if" that you don't actually know is true. And also, "if" the teachers actually don't make mistakes in grading the quizzes (remember, these are people we don't trust to make a new algebra question every year, so not sure where the blind faith on this score comes from), then this is also fine. But you know what else is fine? Looking at the kid's test, seeing where they made mistakes, and learning from that. It's valuable.
Here's another question -- maybe the kid gets nervous for big tests. maybe the quizzes are smaller or different in some way and the kid does well on them. But then blows the final exam. It would be helpful for a parent to see the exam so that the parent can see whether or not the questions are similar, to figure out if the problem is: 1) different kinds of questions were on the final, and the kid doesn't know that material; or 2) the kid got those kinds of questions right on the quizzes, but then got them wrong on the final; or 3) the final had the same kinds of questions, but in a tighter time frame, thus indicating the kid has issues with doing things quickly enough.
That's just one example of why this would be helpful, off the top of my head. We could come up with dozens of others. What's the reticence?

At the risk of bring accused of making up an imaginary child, I asked my MSer about the county-level test she just took, and she shrugged and said it was the same as the other school tests she'd taken.

Whoa What great lines of communication you have with one another. It sure make me feel better that I can't see the major tests.

The point is that she didn't feel blindsided or confused about what she was being asked to master. If she told me it was stuff she didn't know or recognize, and she didn't do well, I'd reach out to her teacher and ask to see the summative. But the school formative grade matched the summative, I saw the school test, so what else do I need to know?

Anonymous wrote:Feeling like running my head into a brick wall with these parents that are justifying that it is okay that they don't see any of their kids tests. Must be nice to have kids that get a 100% on everything

Who said they're parents in mcps? They sounds like screeching muppets without much to say about anything.