Anonymous
Post 09/30/2014 01:43     Subject: Is Dark Matter Where the Seven Heavens Lie?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:And we explained countless times that our belief is not based on science.

We are not discussing whether heaven exists. But this is what you atheists repeatedly try to discuss with us.

So there is no discussion. No believer is interested in engaging a cyclical argument over whether God or heaven exists. We know it does. Not up for discussion. Its foolish to keep revisiting this since we are not likely to change our belief system.



Atheists know full well that religious belief is not based on science. If you don't like what atheists say here, I suggest that you do not engage with them, instead of trying to throw them off the thread.


I'm not sure I buy OP's theory about dark matter, and I'm pretty sure I don't buy into there being seven heavens. I am religious, however.

But, the issue here is that some atheists are actively trying to derail OP's thread, while others might be well-intentioned but they're still effectively derailing instead of engaging OP.

Which is how it goes any time someone tries to discuss faith: ask a serious question about faith and a bunch of atheist scolds come on to tell us we shouldn't believe anything in the first place, and now we should all discuss baseline questions like whether heaven or God exists. Which is why so few people of faith engage on this forum.

Can we change this? Probably not. For a few (not all!) atheists, it's just too much fun (and their lives are clearly so devoid of family and hobbies) to derail with annoying nonsense. For the well-intentioned atheists, why is it too much to ask you to stop derailing threads like this one, and to start your own threads on the baseline questions about heaven's existence? If it intrigues you so much, why not hit "new topic" and go for it? I don't care about this particular thread that much, but I'd love to see this dynamic play out differently on threads I do care about.


It's just absurd for atheists to say because a topic of science is being discussed in relation to heaven, they have something relevant to add to this discourse. This topic is not about dark matter. It's about the possibility of heaven existing there. If one does not believe in heaven, why would you even post? It's the premise of the thread for goodness sake. If dark matter interests you, by all means click on new topic and start a purely scientific discussion on dark matter. The agenda of mostly atheists here is to feign interest in science to sabotage the threads. That much is clear to me and now to others. In fact, I'm seeing a pattern in other religious threads too where atheists come to mock and derail topics even when it has nothing to do with science. I can only imagine they are bored in their lives and hate the feeling of being left out. Christmas, Thanksgiving, Hanukah, Easter, Eid, whatever your religious holidays are, must be lonely times for these atheists. So rather than create their own group, they work to try to break down our religious groups. It doesn't work to minimize our faith. All it does is make atheists a pain in the tush. We just have to learn to ignore them and continue to have conversations about religion.
Anonymous
Post 09/29/2014 12:36     Subject: Is Dark Matter Where the Seven Heavens Lie?
Anonymous wrote:So sorry we believers can not live up to your intellectual standard.

Is anyone in the religious forum wondering the same thing I am? Why are atheists on our threads that discuss religious questions? Are these threads inviting the atheist perspective if the question is about God or afterlife or Heaven? I would think not. So, why do atheists feel their view here is relevant to the topic??



I'm the pp, the above poster was referring to. I've already explained that I am religious, not an atheist. Yet, it seems it doesn't matter if someone has a religion or not. If it's not your religion or if it doesn't fit in with your beliefs then we shouldn't be posting.

So no other religions, no atheists, and no one that doesn't believe in your vision of heaven. Got it, but then this really should not be called the Religion forum. The Dogma forum for non-questioners seems more appropriate.
Anonymous
Post 09/29/2014 12:31     Subject: Is Dark Matter Where the Seven Heavens Lie?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:And we explained countless times that our belief is not based on science.

We are not discussing whether heaven exists. But this is what you atheists repeatedly try to discuss with us.

So there is no discussion. No believer is interested in engaging a cyclical argument over whether God or heaven exists. We know it does. Not up for discussion. Its foolish to keep revisiting this since we are not likely to change our belief system.



Atheists know full well that religious belief is not based on science. If you don't like what atheists say here, I suggest that you do not engage with them, instead of trying to throw them off the thread.


I'm not sure I buy OP's theory about dark matter, and I'm pretty sure I don't buy into there being seven heavens. I am religious, however.

But, the issue here is that some atheists are actively trying to derail OP's thread, while others might be well-intentioned but they're still effectively derailing instead of engaging OP.

Which is how it goes any time someone tries to discuss faith: ask a serious question about faith and a bunch of atheist scolds come on to tell us we shouldn't believe anything in the first place, and now we should all discuss baseline questions like whether heaven or God exists. Which is why so few people of faith engage on this forum.

Can we change this? Probably not. For a few (not all!) atheists, it's just too much fun (and their lives are clearly so devoid of family and hobbies) to derail with annoying nonsense. For the well-intentioned atheists, why is it too much to ask you to stop derailing threads like this one, and to start your own threads on the baseline questions about heaven's existence? If it intrigues you so much, why not hit "new topic" and go for it? I don't care about this particular thread that much, but I'd love to see this dynamic play out differently on threads I do care about.
Anonymous
Post 09/29/2014 12:04     Subject: Is Dark Matter Where the Seven Heavens Lie?
Anonymous wrote:And we explained countless times that our belief is not based on science.

We are not discussing whether heaven exists. But this is what you atheists repeatedly try to discuss with us.

So there is no discussion. No believer is interested in engaging a cyclical argument over whether God or heaven exists. We know it does. Not up for discussion. Its foolish to keep revisiting this since we are not likely to change our belief system.



Atheists know full well that religious belief is not based on science. If you don't like what atheists say here, I suggest that you do not engage with them, instead of trying to throw them off the thread.
Anonymous
Post 09/29/2014 11:59     Subject: Is Dark Matter Where the Seven Heavens Lie?
Anonymous wrote:The only reason for an atheist to come and intrude into a religious discussion among believers is to try to weaken people's faith. If people were leaving religion in droves, why would you need to be here?

You keep telling yourself whatever helps you to sleep at night, dear. Regardless of people leaving religion, they are not leaving belief in God or an afterlife.

Like I said, find your own buddy group so you can find some solace in your life too.


In your opinion. There are sometimes religious people on atheist threads. If your faith can we weakened by an atheist, then perhaps it isn't very strong or perhaps you're open to outside information. People often move from one religion to another, or from religion to no religion. It seems like a pretty human, natural thing to do.

People change their minds about all sorts of things for all sorts of reasons. According to some brands of Christianity, doubt and questioning and outside attacks on their religion only makes faith stronger. If that's the case, then atheists are doing believers a favor by presenting a different point of view which you can then reject.
FruminousBandersnatch
Post 09/29/2014 11:49     Subject: Is Dark Matter Where the Seven Heavens Lie?
Anonymous wrote:10:27 again. Since I'm in apoloqizing mode, let me add an apology to Fruminous for my earlier comment about the Fruminous theory of angels. That time my tongue was firmly in my cheek. Of course, it would not surprise me if the same were true of the Fruminous response to that note.


No apology necessary or merited! I thought your comment was funny!
Anonymous
Post 09/29/2014 11:45     Subject: Is Dark Matter Where the Seven Heavens Lie?
Anonymous wrote:The only reason for an atheist to come and intrude into a religious discussion among believers is to try to weaken people's faith. If people were leaving religion in droves, why would you need to be here?

You keep telling yourself whatever helps you to sleep at night, dear. Regardless of people leaving religion, they are not leaving belief in God or an afterlife.

Like I said, find your own buddy group so you can find some solace in your life too.


Many atheists do have "buddy groups" especially in towns as large as DC. In many cases, the aim of atheists expressing their views is not to convert, but to inform and converse.

though I guess it's possible, I haven't heard of atheists who were converted by another person (as often happens in religious conversions). Instead, they usually read and think and research and eventually leave their supernatural beliefs behind. Also , Some atheists seem to be "born" that way -- impervious to religion, even though they are taught it as a child.
Anonymous
Post 09/29/2014 11:03     Subject: Is Dark Matter Where the Seven Heavens Lie?
10:27 again. Since I'm in apoloqizing mode, let me add an apology to Fruminous for my earlier comment about the Fruminous theory of angels. That time my tongue was firmly in my cheek. Of course, it would not surprise me if the same were true of the Fruminous response to that note.
FruminousBandersnatch
Post 09/29/2014 10:36     Subject: Is Dark Matter Where the Seven Heavens Lie?
Anonymous wrote:And we explained countless times that our belief is not based on science.


I never said it was. However, this thread is about whether Heaven (or the Seven Heavens) is in dark matter. I attempted to explain why that hypothesis is unlikely to be correct, and some of the consequences if it is.

Anonymous wrote:We are not discussing whether heaven exists. But this is what you atheists repeatedly try to discuss with us.


Nope. I said I disagree with you, but that I'm not going to argue about the existence of Heaven (or the Seven Heavens).

Anonymous wrote:So there is no discussion. No believer is interested in engaging a cyclical argument over whether God or heaven exists. We know it does. Not up for discussion. Its foolish to keep revisiting this since we are not likely to change our belief system.



And, I specifically said that I'm not trying to change your belief system. This thread is about applying a real world cosmological hypothesis (the existence of dark matter) to a theological concept in terms of asking the question about whether Heaven (or the Seven Heavens) could be in dark matter. All I've tried to do is explain the consequences and questions raised by that application. If you still want to believe in it, that's fine with me - you have every right to believe whatever you choose.
Anonymous
Post 09/29/2014 10:27     Subject: Is Dark Matter Where the Seven Heavens Lie?
This is a repetition and expansion of something I wrote earlier. Rather than asking whether the seven heavens lie, I thnk the question should be whether it is God that is spread throughout the universe, providing the Force that keeps everything in order.

I would further suggest that both heaven and hell consist of our souls residing within God, being rewarded for our goodness and cleansed of our sins.

And to those offended by an atheist intruding in the discussion, I apologize. I am not being sarcastic, but trying to put myself in a believer's frame of mind and to treat the question seriously.
Anonymous
Post 09/29/2014 09:50     Subject: Is Dark Matter Where the Seven Heavens Lie?
And we explained countless times that our belief is not based on science.

We are not discussing whether heaven exists. But this is what you atheists repeatedly try to discuss with us.

So there is no discussion. No believer is interested in engaging a cyclical argument over whether God or heaven exists. We know it does. Not up for discussion. Its foolish to keep revisiting this since we are not likely to change our belief system.

FruminousBandersnatch
Post 09/29/2014 09:18     Subject: Is Dark Matter Where the Seven Heavens Lie?
Anonymous wrote:The only reason for an atheist to come and intrude into a religious discussion among believers is to try to weaken people's faith. If people were leaving religion in droves, why would you need to be here?

You keep telling yourself whatever helps you to sleep at night, dear. Regardless of people leaving religion, they are not leaving belief in God or an afterlife.

Like I said, find your own buddy group so you can find some solace in your life too.


As an atheist, I can say unequivocally that I am not trying to weaken anyone's faith in their deity of choice. You have the unfettered right to believe whatever you choose, and I support your right to do so.

I came into this conversation because it was a discussion of a scientific topic, attempting to apply aspects of a cosmological hypothesis to religion, and I attempted to explain why trying to link the supernatural/spiritual does not make sense.
Anonymous
Post 09/29/2014 08:26     Subject: Is Dark Matter Where the Seven Heavens Lie?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Right -- it only strengthens your faith. Meanwhile, people are leaving religion in droves, so something is causing that to happen. Also, you're not in position to know that most of the people here are believers -- all the while complaining about atheists!


We're leaving this forum in droves. That's what your derailments do. But you're ultimately not successful in converting people to atheism, because your inane posts don't make any kind of coherent case against religion.

Get it? Your inanity isn't persuasive, it's plum annoying.
Anonymous
Post 09/29/2014 00:16     Subject: Is Dark Matter Where the Seven Heavens Lie?
The only reason for an atheist to come and intrude into a religious discussion among believers is to try to weaken people's faith. If people were leaving religion in droves, why would you need to be here?

You keep telling yourself whatever helps you to sleep at night, dear. Regardless of people leaving religion, they are not leaving belief in God or an afterlife.

Like I said, find your own buddy group so you can find some solace in your life too.
Anonymous
Post 09/28/2014 23:55     Subject: Is Dark Matter Where the Seven Heavens Lie?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:[
I am sorry but I haven't read through your post. Again, I assume heaven exists, regardless of science. Its not up for debate here. You seem desperate to have a conversation butI'm just not interested in trying to validate my beliefs.


then why are you trying to show how your beliefs fit with science?


Because its a glorious moment for believers when science can validate what we always knew to be true. It reaffirms our faith. But it was not needed to instill it.


And, yet, you admitted to not reading FruminousBandersnatch's post explaining why science would make it difficult for your hypothesis about Heaven being out in the dark matter to be correct. So your "glorious moment" is just you looking at a scientific result that you don't actually understand and saying, "Wow. This might validate my faith!" And when people who actually understand the science (and seem to have a better grasp of theology) weigh in, you get pissy and say they're disrupting the conversation.


Sorry I haven't read your post either.


Excellent way to keep your faith strong!


You just don't get it do you? I read this post of yours because it's one line, not enough to bore me to tears. I read all the other posts from pages 1 through 8. Your thoughts and ideas and refutations were boring, based on old information, and nothing novel or insightful. So it's a waste of my time. I could go back and read pages 8 through 10 but it won't change my belief in God. You will never succeed in your endeavor to weaken people's faith. The majority of people who will write on religious forums are believers. Many are probably devout also. If your hope is to weaken people's faith in their religion, honey, you came to the wrong place.


Right -- it only strengthens your faith. Meanwhile, people are leaving religion in droves, so something is causing that to happen. Also, you're not in position to know that most of the people here are believers -- all the while complaining about atheists!