"Because my kids can walk to their W school.

Because busing kids who can walk to school is environmentally irresponsible, a setback to the fight against childhood obesity, and a large additional cost to the county. Because academic performance improves for teenagers when there is a later start time, and busing will require them to wake up even earlier. Because I feel safer knowing that my child can walk home if there is a school emergency or if he misses his bus. Because I know many of my teenager's friends who live in the neighborhood."

Congrats. You are the very first poster opposing busing that has made any good points. Those would then need weighed off against the benefits of the change but at least they are more legitimate complaints instead of simply that you would have paid a lot to purchase an exclusive school (via your house) without getting to enjoy it in the end.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
If the wealthy people chose other educational opportunities for their children, they would probably either be a different public school system or a private school. I'm not sure you can pass a law that mandates people to use the public education system. Across MCPS, every child follows the same cirriculum so it's hard to say that a child in one school district isn't getting the same education as another. I don't think people are arguing about the actual cirriculum that is provided (2.0 aside) but it's the other things that the school district really can't control--- parent involvement, peer groups, motivations, family values that place a priority on education. Busing or forced integratin would be one way to address these issues, but it won't work if one side has the ability (money) to opt out.

First of all, all of the schools are in one school district: Montgomery County Public Schools.

Second of all, it's actually very easy to say this. It's so easy to say this, in fact, that people are saying it every single day -- literally -- on DCUM. In fact, people are saying it right here on this thread. Because if the education that kids get is the same at every school, why would people care whether their kid goes to this school, that school, or the other school?

It's not the education it's the lack of intellectually motivated peer group that is objectionable. The school district sets a county wide curriculum and all schools follow it. It's the implementation that differs and the implementation differs because of the student population that the material is presented to. For example, let's say Hamlet is a required read for all 11th graders in MCPS. One school might cover the book in 2 weeks and have a multiple choice exam at the end. Another school might cover the material over 4 weeks, require small group discussions, essays, and class presentations to invoke thoughtful discussion. The material as manadated to be covered is met by both schools. The education that the school board can control is the same. The insights and in depth learning that comes from being surrounded by like motivated peers is not something that the school board controls through its curriculum. For the school system, the curriculum is the education. The education is the same across all schools.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It seems to me that the people who live in Potomac or Bethesda are considered the wealthier citizens of the county. And if they had to go into a county wide lottery, there would be a good chance that those people might pull their children out of the lottery system and choose other educational opportunities. If the local residents were not a part of the W schools, what would that leave you and what benefit would other students gain?

1. Nobody, even on this thread, is proposing a county-wide lottery.
2. If the residents of Bethesda, Potomac, and Chevy Chase were not a part of the schools in Bethesda, Potomac, and Chevy Chase, that would leave me exactly where I am now.

The argument seems to be that the poor kids have to stay in their high-poverty schools because otherwise rich parents will pull their children out of the public schools. Sorry, poor kids. The preferences of rich parents are more important than your education.

PP at 13:43 thinks that a county-wide lottery is a great idea. And PP at 16:28 wants poorer children to be able to go to school wherever they want, regardless of money (which is a nice ideal in theory, but how to put that into practice?). In any event, I am not sure how you integrate places like Potomac and Bethesda, which have school populations that are less diverse (race and SES-wise) than elsewhere, unless you force long-distance busing to/from those places. These communities are next to other wealthy communities, by and large. It's not like adding a Rockville neighborhood to Churchill or Wootton really diversifies things much, does it? What does that do for the kids in Silver Spring or in the eastern parts of the county where schools are majority minority and/or lower-performing? There aren't many "high poverty schools" in clusters adjacent to high-SES schools, so if you want to make a real difference, you'd have to impose long-distance busing. People here seem to feel that families in wealthier parts of the county are not doing their fair share, and someone else already said it was pointless to have busing between two high-poverty school clusters, so beyond stating the obvious that forcing poor kids to stay in high-poverty, low-performing schools is not a good thing, what exactly do you propose to do?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Because if the education that kids get is the same at every school, why would people care whether their kid goes to this school, that school, or the other school?

Because my kids can walk to their W school.

Because busing kids who can walk to school is environmentally irresponsible, a setback to the fight against childhood obesity, and a large additional cost to the county. Because academic performance improves for teenagers when there is a later start time, and busing will require them to wake up even earlier. Because I feel safer knowing that my child can walk home if there is a school emergency or if he misses his bus. Because I know many of my teenager's friends who live in the neighborhood.

How nice for you in the W schools that the kids can go to their neighborhood schools while some of the kids not in the W schools are being bused to a school further away even though there is a school soooo much closer to their neighborhood.

Anonymous wrote:Because if the education that kids get is the same at every school, why would people care whether their kid goes to this school, that school, or the other school?

Because my kids can walk to their W school.

Because busing kids who can walk to school is environmentally irresponsible, a setback to the fight against childhood obesity, and a large additional cost to the county. Because academic performance improves for teenagers when there is a later start time, and busing will require them to wake up even earlier. Because I feel safer knowing that my child can walk home if there is a school emergency or if he misses his bus. Because I know many of my teenager's friends who live in the neighborhood.

Anonymous wrote:

Exactly. There are things that can't easily be bused to another school. Also, I think people are discounting the value of a neighborhood school that all the kids in a neighborhood attend. For working parents, it's great to know that a neighbor can pick up or watch kids in a pinch. We've done a magnet and it's a pain when you can't easily call on another parent to help with pick ups (because MCPS does not do door-to-door busing). We came from DC where a single neighborhood might have kids attending 15 different DCPS, charter, parochial or whatever school. It's a headache to do lotteries yearly, renegotiate commutes/pickup schedules constantly, and buses will only do so much. Kids going out of boundary are on their own, riding city buses or requiring parents to chauffer them everywhere. We came to MoCo to escape all that, and now people want to do that here on the pipe dream that giving every child an equal chance to attend a W school will make everything better? I can guarantee you that the day that the student body of one of the W schools is randomly selected from the entirety of the county and the connection between the students and the surrounding community is entirely severed, the school will cease to be high performing. You're fooling yourself if you think that it's just the building, teachers, and the location that makes a W school high performing.

Who is saying that? Who is saying that the solution to the segregated schools in Montgomery County is giving every child an equal chance to go to Whitman? Who is saying that it's the building, the teachers, and the location make Whitman high-performing?

Anonymous wrote:
It seems to me that the people who live in Potomac or Bethesda are considered the wealthier citizens of the county. And if they had to go into a county wide lottery, there would be a good chance that those people might pull their children out of the lottery system and choose other educational opportunities. If the local residents were not a part of the W schools, what would that leave you and what benefit would other students gain?

1. Nobody, even on this thread, is proposing a county-wide lottery.
2. If the residents of Bethesda, Potomac, and Chevy Chase were not a part of the schools in Bethesda, Potomac, and Chevy Chase, that would leave me exactly where I am now.

The argument seems to be that the poor kids have to stay in their high-poverty schools because otherwise rich parents will pull their children out of the public schools. Sorry, poor kids. The preferences of rich parents are more important than your education.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It seems to me that the people who live in Potomac or Bethesda are considered the wealthier citizens of the county. And if they had to go into a county wide lottery, there would be a good chance that those people might pull their children out of the lottery system and choose other educational opportunities. If the local residents were not a part of the W schools, what would that leave you and what benefit would other students gain?

Then we must find a way to change a law to force integration. Why can't the poor have the freedom to chose whatever education opportunities for their kids. Every kid deserves good education, not just the ones with money.

If the wealthy people chose other educational opportunities for their children, they would probably either be a different public school system or a private school. I'm not sure you can pass a law that mandates people to use the public education system. Across MCPS, every child follows the same cirriculum so it's hard to say that a child in one school district isn't getting the same education as another. I don't think people are arguing about the actual cirriculum that is provided (2.0 aside) but it's the other things that the school district really can't control--- parent involvement, peer groups, motivations, family values that place a priority on education. Busing or forced integratin would be one way to address these issues, but it won't work if one side has the ability (money) to opt out.

Exactly. There are things that can't easily be bused to another school. Also, I think people are discounting the value of a neighborhood school that all the kids in a neighborhood attend. For working parents, it's great to know that a neighbor can pick up or watch kids in a pinch. We've done a magnet and it's a pain when you can't easily call on another parent to help with pick ups (because MCPS does not do door-to-door busing). We came from DC where a single neighborhood might have kids attending 15 different DCPS, charter, parochial or whatever school. It's a headache to do lotteries yearly, renegotiate commutes/pickup schedules constantly, and buses will only do so much. Kids going out of boundary are on their own, riding city buses or requiring parents to chauffer them everywhere. We came to MoCo to escape all that, and now people want to do that here on the pipe dream that giving every child an equal chance to attend a W school will make everything better? I can guarantee you that the day that the student body of one of the W schools is randomly selected from the entirety of the county and the connection between the students and the surrounding community is entirely severed, the school will cease to be high performing. You're fooling yourself if you think that it's just the building, teachers, and the location that makes a W school high performing.

Anonymous wrote:
If the wealthy people chose other educational opportunities for their children, they would probably either be a different public school system or a private school. I'm not sure you can pass a law that mandates people to use the public education system. Across MCPS, every child follows the same cirriculum so it's hard to say that a child in one school district isn't getting the same education as another. I don't think people are arguing about the actual cirriculum that is provided (2.0 aside) but it's the other things that the school district really can't control--- parent involvement, peer groups, motivations, family values that place a priority on education. Busing or forced integratin would be one way to address these issues, but it won't work if one side has the ability (money) to opt out.

First of all, all of the schools are in one school district: Montgomery County Public Schools.

Second of all, it's actually very easy to say this. It's so easy to say this, in fact, that people are saying it every single day -- literally -- on DCUM. In fact, people are saying it right here on this thread. Because if the education that kids get is the same at every school, why would people care whether their kid goes to this school, that school, or the other school?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Have you tried to drive, during rush hour, from someplace like Potomac to anywhere east of Bethesda or far enough into Rockville that you're reaching kids who are not also wealthy? It's a long-ass drive. "

But part of the long commute is because the pull zone for the magnets is so big, right? If you are focusing the busing on particular areas rather than pick-up from very dispersed spots it might not take that long to reverse commute east.

Yes. Or north, to Rockville/Gaithersburg.

It is 6.5 miles from Churchill HS to Rockville HS, and 5.9 miles from Wootton to Rockville HS. From Wootton HS to Gaithersburg HS, the distance is 5.2 miles.

These are a similar distance as the distance from e.g. Blair HS to Einstein HS. The home school for families who live close to Blair in e.g. Woodside Park and Woodside Forest is Einstein, although Blair is closer. Thanks to economic diversity gerrymandering, those families bus their kids to Einstein HS.

In other words, the busing distance/logistics for the western downcounty schools would be comparable to the BUSING IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW in the downcounty/east.

So why aren't we doing that again?

How about just fixing your own area's busing then instead of trying to make others' kids and families' commutes way worse.
Traffic is a nightmare in this area.
Ever sit on the inner loop or Jones Bridge Road or E-W highway after 4:00 any given afternoon?
How would all these kids get from their after school programming, band, sports, language clubs, etc. to their homes? Johnny's mom can no longer just swing by and get them.

I'm not complaining. Nothing to fix here.

There's a lot to fix county-wide, however, particularly in the western part of the downcounty.

I'm familiar with traffic and you'll get no sympathy from me. We are not talking about 20 miles. We are talking about reasonable distances, distances that MANY OTHERS, including my kids and me, handle every day. Moreover, school buses exist for this purpose. No need to pick up - there are buses, and activity buses.

We can barely manage busing for the existing routes, and you want to add busing of children to/from other neighborhoods? And the closer you get to DC, the worse the traffic gets. It's about three miles between Whitman and BCC, and that "short" drive during rush hour can take 45 minutes or more one way. If we're talking about county-wide lotteries, that's a busing nightmare. More likely, parents will be responsible for getting their kids to central locations for further busing (this is how busing is done for HGC)...eliminating the ability to rely on your kids attending a neighborhood school that they can walk to or that is reasonably close to one's home is incredibly hard for households with parents working two or more jobs and no extra funds for a nanny or babysitter. It's hard for any working parents.

^ plus we are talking about commuting the opposite way of traffic if sw MoCo kids are headed east.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Have you tried to drive, during rush hour, from someplace like Potomac to anywhere east of Bethesda or far enough into Rockville that you're reaching kids who are not also wealthy? It's a long-ass drive. "

But part of the long commute is because the pull zone for the magnets is so big, right? If you are focusing the busing on particular areas rather than pick-up from very dispersed spots it might not take that long to reverse commute east.

Yes. Or north, to Rockville/Gaithersburg.

It is 6.5 miles from Churchill HS to Rockville HS, and 5.9 miles from Wootton to Rockville HS. From Wootton HS to Gaithersburg HS, the distance is 5.2 miles.

These are a similar distance as the distance from e.g. Blair HS to Einstein HS. The home school for families who live close to Blair in e.g. Woodside Park and Woodside Forest is Einstein, although Blair is closer. Thanks to economic diversity gerrymandering, those families bus their kids to Einstein HS.

In other words, the busing distance/logistics for the western downcounty schools would be comparable to the BUSING IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW in the downcounty/east.

So why aren't we doing that again?

How about just fixing your own area's busing then instead of trying to make others' kids and families' commutes way worse.
Traffic is a nightmare in this area.
Ever sit on the inner loop or Jones Bridge Road or E-W highway after 4:00 any given afternoon?
How would all these kids get from their after school programming, band, sports, language clubs, etc. to their homes? Johnny's mom can no longer just swing by and get them.

I'm not complaining. Nothing to fix here.

There's a lot to fix county-wide, however, particularly in the western part of the downcounty.

I'm familiar with traffic and you'll get no sympathy from me. We are not talking about 20 miles. We are talking about reasonable distances, distances that MANY OTHERS, including my kids and me, handle every day. Moreover, school buses exist for this purpose. No need to pick up - there are buses, and activity buses.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It seems to me that the people who live in Potomac or Bethesda are considered the wealthier citizens of the county. And if they had to go into a county wide lottery, there would be a good chance that those people might pull their children out of the lottery system and choose other educational opportunities. If the local residents were not a part of the W schools, what would that leave you and what benefit would other students gain?

Then we must find a way to change a law to force integration. Why can't the poor have the freedom to chose whatever education opportunities for their kids. Every kid deserves good education, not just the ones with money.

If the wealthy people chose other educational opportunities for their children, they would probably either be a different public school system or a private school. I'm not sure you can pass a law that mandates people to use the public education system. Across MCPS, every child follows the same cirriculum so it's hard to say that a child in one school district isn't getting the same education as another. I don't think people are arguing about the actual cirriculum that is provided (2.0 aside) but it's the other things that the school district really can't control--- parent involvement, peer groups, motivations, family values that place a priority on education. Busing or forced integratin would be one way to address these issues, but it won't work if one side has the ability (money) to opt out.

Sorry, forgot to add inching up 270 N or any of the alternates like 355, River Road, Seven Locks. People would like up to add those drives on to the day's end.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Have you tried to drive, during rush hour, from someplace like Potomac to anywhere east of Bethesda or far enough into Rockville that you're reaching kids who are not also wealthy? It's a long-ass drive. "

But part of the long commute is because the pull zone for the magnets is so big, right? If you are focusing the busing on particular areas rather than pick-up from very dispersed spots it might not take that long to reverse commute east.

Yes. Or north, to Rockville/Gaithersburg.

It is 6.5 miles from Churchill HS to Rockville HS, and 5.9 miles from Wootton to Rockville HS. From Wootton HS to Gaithersburg HS, the distance is 5.2 miles.

These are a similar distance as the distance from e.g. Blair HS to Einstein HS. The home school for families who live close to Blair in e.g. Woodside Park and Woodside Forest is Einstein, although Blair is closer. Thanks to economic diversity gerrymandering, those families bus their kids to Einstein HS.

In other words, the busing distance/logistics for the western downcounty schools would be comparable to the BUSING IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW in the downcounty/east.

So why aren't we doing that again?

How about just fixing your own area's busing then instead of trying to make others' kids and families' commutes way worse.
Traffic is a nightmare in this area.
Ever sit on the inner loop or Jones Bridge Road or E-W highway after 4:00 any given afternoon?
How would all these kids get from their after school programming, band, sports, language clubs, etc. to their homes? Johnny's mom can no longer just swing by and get them.