IB always seemed like an incomprehensible and non useful program foisted on the lower income schools. Why do we need an "international" degree when our kids are going to American colleges.

Anonymous wrote:

As for the non-IB diploma candidates at IB schools going to the bottom of the pile at most selective colleges, wouldn't that be the same for anyone that doesn't get "most rigorous" marked on their college app?

The concern is that, for non-IB diploma students at IB schools, that decision has already effectively been made. The determination for students at AP schools is less binary.

I'm convinced this is one of the primary reasons why parents at schools like Langley, McLean, Madison, Woodson and Oakton remain staunchly in favor of the AP curriculum. Even at a top local IB school like Marshall or Robinson over 3/4 of the graduating seniors do not receive an IB diploma. At some of the other local schools with IB programs the percentage is much lower.

Anonymous wrote:Interesting article on the experience at Woodson when it decided to drop IB:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2004/jan/17/20040117-115053-8186r/?page=all

Seems like some of the objections would be less of an issue today, with more colleges and universities now accepting IB credits, but the reported quote from the U. Va. admissions officer that applications from non-diploma candidates at IB schools get tossed to the bottom of the pile still resonates.

The number of credits colleges award for IB courses still varies significantly school to school, even though the number of colleges awarding credit has been increasing steadily. Is it the same for AP credits? Or is the way colleges award credit for AP work pretty uniform?

As for the non-IB diploma candidates at IB schools going to the bottom of the pile at most selective colleges, wouldn't that be the same for anyone that doesn't get "most rigorous" marked on their college app?

Interesting article on the experience at Woodson when it decided to drop IB:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2004/jan/17/20040117-115053-8186r/?page=all

Seems like some of the objections would be less of an issue today, with more colleges and universities now accepting IB credits, but the reported quote from the U. Va. admissions officer that applications from non-diploma candidates at IB schools get tossed to the bottom of the pile still resonates.

To take the AP vs IB debate out of the Marshall vs Madison context, here is a pretty well reasoned response from the chair of the Dept of Leadership, Foundations, and Policy at UVA:

http://tip.duke.edu/node/815

Bottom line - it depends on your kid which program will suit them better, and for some, neither course of study will satisfy their particular approach to learning.

Another source for opinions on Ap vs IB (again without the context of specific schools) is College Confidential, where you can find opinions of students who attend schools that have both programs.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why not have a single IB high school in the county where admissions are competitive and students have to stay on the IB diploma track or return to their base AP schools?

MoCo does this and it IMHO it creates additional, unnecessary hype around the IB program.

I don't think it would be "hype," so much as the practical recognition that the number of students in FCPS who pursue (not to mention receive) a full IB diploma is just not that large. Fewer than 500 FCPS seniors in 2012 were seeking the IB diploma, and roughly 350 actually received one. For students who aren't pursuing the full IB diploma, why not have them attend AP schools, where they can take selected AP courses if they wish? One of the arguments in favor of IB is that it offers a "holistic" perspective, but that benefit is largely missing if a student is just taking one or two IB courses.

If there were evidence that more students actually wanted to get IB diplomas (and, in a county like FCPS, restricting access to an educational option often creates the demand), FCPS could consider additional IB programs. But right now, I think there's an over-supply of IB schools relative to the demand. It may appear to shore up a few schools like Marshall, which is surrounded by AP schools (Langley, McLean, Madison and Falls Church) and gets more out-of-boundary students transferring in than in-boundary students transferring out, but overall it doesn't seem like a sensible use of the county's money.

What would they be asked to write that is anti-US? I can understand students writing anti-US pieces , but am curious about deliberate questions they are asked to respond to.

Anonymous wrote:Why not have a single IB high school in the county where admissions are competitive and students have to stay on the IB diploma track or return to their base AP schools?

MoCo does this and it IMHO it creates additional, unnecessary hype around the IB program.

Anonymous wrote:From a purely pedagogical perspective, what are the strengths and weaknesses of the IB and AP programs?

Having had a child at an IB school, I think the strengths of the IB program are that it requires a substantial amount of writing; it devotes a signficant amount of time to developing critical thinking skills; and it offers an "IB diploma," which is often viewed favorably by college admissions officers (even though the actual diplomas are not awarded until after a student graduates from high school).

In my mind, the weaknesses of the program are that it's very much a "programme," designed in Geneva, that must be followed with limited deviation; it has a lot of what some students perceive to be "busy work" assignments in which students cynically believe they are rewarded if they write essays that espouse a "global," anti-US perspective; the range of course offerings tends not to be narrower than at schools with robust AP programs; it requires community service projects (which I support, but not pursuant to requirements imposed by public schools); it creates a "school within a school" environment, where the IB diploma candidates comprise a small fraction of a school's total students; some schools still are less likely to award credit for IB courses than AP courses (although this has gradually been changing to put the programs on an equal footing); and students at IB schools who end up not pursuing the full IB diploma may be penalized during the college admissions process, since admissions officers at some schools look down on students at IB schools who are not going for a full IB diploma.

At the end of the day, I think any FCPS HS is going to offer great educational opportunities to students who take advantage of them (and that includes schools like Falls Church, even though one Marshall booster claimed on this thread that it would be a "no brainer" to pick Marshall over Falls Church). On a per student basis, however, FCPS spends more money on IB than AP, and I question whether it makes sense to have eight IB high schools in the county. In 2012, there were less than 500 graduating seniors seeking an IB diploma at those eight schools, or about the number of graduating seniors at a mid-sized high school like Madison. That's roughly 10% of the seniors at those eight schools, yet they revolve around being "IB World Schools" and most do not offer any AP courses. Why not have a single IB high school in the county where admissions are competitive and students have to stay on the IB diploma track or return to their base AP schools? That would probably save the county money and give students at other schools more options.

From a purely pedagogical perspective, what are the strengths and weaknesses of the IB and AP programs?

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Anonymous wrote:
Ned December 19, 2012 at 05:17 PM
I am a 2004 graduate of South Lakes and an IB certificate holder. As I am the only one in this discussion so far to have gone all the way through the program and experienced life afterward, I would like to offer my experiences. I have no problems admitting I was a midland student in the IB world. I graduated with a 3.3 and certs in HL physics/history and SL english/math/art, I was not a full diploma candidate so TOK was not in my course load. I went on to graduate from Longwood University with honors. What the IB program did for me was put me LEAPS and BOUNDS ahead of my peers in college. It's true that I did not receive any credit for my IB classes but I did receive plenty of knowledge. My first year at Longwood was a breeze since it was essentially a repeat of my senior year at South Lakes. Some might say thats a bad thing but as a student who went through it I say those people are idiots. It allowed me to transition into college life with far greater ease than friends from other parts of the state/country. I didn't have the smack in the face of "college level classes" since I was already expected to achieve at that level (at least) the year before. The advantage I had over my classmates due to the IB program was absurd. Simply put, I was ready for college, others weren't. period. This is only my case and there are a lot of variables but all of my friends experienced the same thing. It was rough in HS but beyond worth it in the long run. Buck up Mr. Stein...

So IB will give a local student a leg up at Longwood? Mr. Stein may have had a different college experience in mind.

Well, Mr. Stein might also do well like me... I obtained my IB diploma at an overseas school. I did attend Longwood. I started up and spun off one small business in my undegraduate career and another before going to grad school at Wharton. I now run my own company and employ 1 - 2 Ivy undergrads but have fired another 3 -4 for non-performance. I am happy with my life, I make a good income, I employ people, thus contributing to my state and community. Wonder what the person who sneered at Longwood does? Probably "just" a lawyer, not someone who has ever created anything.

Cool story, dude, but probably not a reason to place out of a top AP school.

Different strokes for different folks. Maybe some people prefer IB over AP. It's as simple as that. It doesn't make them wrong. It amazes me how much vitriol gets spilled out in the Madison and McLean vs. Marshall thing and the AP vs. IB. Doesn't it matter that your kids are happy and successful wherever they are?

+1 I was thinking the same thing, PP. Though it does seem that most of the vitriol is directed at Marshall and the IB program. I wonder why that is, especially given so many Madison and other AP parents are certain of the superiority of the AP program? Hmmm.....

+2. I am kind of in amazement at this thread. I really do not get it. Pick what is best for your child and move in. No need to attack the choices of others.

I think you need to accept that some people don't like the IB program for pedagogical reasons and wouldn't go out of their way to send their kids to Marshall. It's a matter of preference, not vitriol, and the OP did ask for feedback.

That is a completely fair statement. But so little of this thread is focused on IB vs. AP discourse. PPs have brought up everything from the dumpiness of Vienna neighborhoods zoned to Marshall to the Academy trade program - all topics that have nothing to do with what OP asked. Yes, if I were the OP I probably would just send my child to Madison because it's a great in-zone school and not worth the trouble of pupil-placing. But many of these responses certainly wouldn't make me want to send my kid there if this is the kind of prevailing parent attitude.

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Anonymous wrote:
Ned December 19, 2012 at 05:17 PM
I am a 2004 graduate of South Lakes and an IB certificate holder. As I am the only one in this discussion so far to have gone all the way through the program and experienced life afterward, I would like to offer my experiences. I have no problems admitting I was a midland student in the IB world. I graduated with a 3.3 and certs in HL physics/history and SL english/math/art, I was not a full diploma candidate so TOK was not in my course load. I went on to graduate from Longwood University with honors. What the IB program did for me was put me LEAPS and BOUNDS ahead of my peers in college. It's true that I did not receive any credit for my IB classes but I did receive plenty of knowledge. My first year at Longwood was a breeze since it was essentially a repeat of my senior year at South Lakes. Some might say thats a bad thing but as a student who went through it I say those people are idiots. It allowed me to transition into college life with far greater ease than friends from other parts of the state/country. I didn't have the smack in the face of "college level classes" since I was already expected to achieve at that level (at least) the year before. The advantage I had over my classmates due to the IB program was absurd. Simply put, I was ready for college, others weren't. period. This is only my case and there are a lot of variables but all of my friends experienced the same thing. It was rough in HS but beyond worth it in the long run. Buck up Mr. Stein...

So IB will give a local student a leg up at Longwood? Mr. Stein may have had a different college experience in mind.

Well, Mr. Stein might also do well like me... I obtained my IB diploma at an overseas school. I did attend Longwood. I started up and spun off one small business in my undegraduate career and another before going to grad school at Wharton. I now run my own company and employ 1 - 2 Ivy undergrads but have fired another 3 -4 for non-performance. I am happy with my life, I make a good income, I employ people, thus contributing to my state and community. Wonder what the person who sneered at Longwood does? Probably "just" a lawyer, not someone who has ever created anything.

Cool story, dude, but probably not a reason to place out of a top AP school.

Different strokes for different folks. Maybe some people prefer IB over AP. It's as simple as that. It doesn't make them wrong. It amazes me how much vitriol gets spilled out in the Madison and McLean vs. Marshall thing and the AP vs. IB. Doesn't it matter that your kids are happy and successful wherever they are?

+1 I was thinking the same thing, PP. Though it does seem that most of the vitriol is directed at Marshall and the IB program. I wonder why that is, especially given so many Madison and other AP parents are certain of the superiority of the AP program? Hmmm.....

Probably from the single anti marshall troll

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:
Ned December 19, 2012 at 05:17 PM
I am a 2004 graduate of South Lakes and an IB certificate holder. As I am the only one in this discussion so far to have gone all the way through the program and experienced life afterward, I would like to offer my experiences. I have no problems admitting I was a midland student in the IB world. I graduated with a 3.3 and certs in HL physics/history and SL english/math/art, I was not a full diploma candidate so TOK was not in my course load. I went on to graduate from Longwood University with honors. What the IB program did for me was put me LEAPS and BOUNDS ahead of my peers in college. It's true that I did not receive any credit for my IB classes but I did receive plenty of knowledge. My first year at Longwood was a breeze since it was essentially a repeat of my senior year at South Lakes. Some might say thats a bad thing but as a student who went through it I say those people are idiots. It allowed me to transition into college life with far greater ease than friends from other parts of the state/country. I didn't have the smack in the face of "college level classes" since I was already expected to achieve at that level (at least) the year before. The advantage I had over my classmates due to the IB program was absurd. Simply put, I was ready for college, others weren't. period. This is only my case and there are a lot of variables but all of my friends experienced the same thing. It was rough in HS but beyond worth it in the long run. Buck up Mr. Stein...

So IB will give a local student a leg up at Longwood? Mr. Stein may have had a different college experience in mind.

Well, Mr. Stein might also do well like me... I obtained my IB diploma at an overseas school. I did attend Longwood. I started up and spun off one small business in my undegraduate career and another before going to grad school at Wharton. I now run my own company and employ 1 - 2 Ivy undergrads but have fired another 3 -4 for non-performance. I am happy with my life, I make a good income, I employ people, thus contributing to my state and community. Wonder what the person who sneered at Longwood does? Probably "just" a lawyer, not someone who has ever created anything.

Cool story, dude, but probably not a reason to place out of a top AP school.

Different strokes for different folks. Maybe some people prefer IB over AP. It's as simple as that. It doesn't make them wrong. It amazes me how much vitriol gets spilled out in the Madison and McLean vs. Marshall thing and the AP vs. IB. Doesn't it matter that your kids are happy and successful wherever they are?

+1 I was thinking the same thing, PP. Though it does seem that most of the vitriol is directed at Marshall and the IB program. I wonder why that is, especially given so many Madison and other AP parents are certain of the superiority of the AP program? Hmmm.....

+2. I am kind of in amazement at this thread. I really do not get it. Pick what is best for your child and move in. No need to attack the choices of others.

I think you need to accept that some people don't like the IB program for pedagogical reasons and wouldn't go out of their way to send their kids to Marshall. It's a matter of preference, not vitriol, and the OP did ask for feedback.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Ned December 19, 2012 at 05:17 PM
I am a 2004 graduate of South Lakes and an IB certificate holder. As I am the only one in this discussion so far to have gone all the way through the program and experienced life afterward, I would like to offer my experiences. I have no problems admitting I was a midland student in the IB world. I graduated with a 3.3 and certs in HL physics/history and SL english/math/art, I was not a full diploma candidate so TOK was not in my course load. I went on to graduate from Longwood University with honors. What the IB program did for me was put me LEAPS and BOUNDS ahead of my peers in college. It's true that I did not receive any credit for my IB classes but I did receive plenty of knowledge. My first year at Longwood was a breeze since it was essentially a repeat of my senior year at South Lakes. Some might say thats a bad thing but as a student who went through it I say those people are idiots. It allowed me to transition into college life with far greater ease than friends from other parts of the state/country. I didn't have the smack in the face of "college level classes" since I was already expected to achieve at that level (at least) the year before. The advantage I had over my classmates due to the IB program was absurd. Simply put, I was ready for college, others weren't. period. This is only my case and there are a lot of variables but all of my friends experienced the same thing. It was rough in HS but beyond worth it in the long run. Buck up Mr. Stein...

So IB will give a local student a leg up at Longwood? Mr. Stein may have had a different college experience in mind.

Well, Mr. Stein might also do well like me... I obtained my IB diploma at an overseas school. I did attend Longwood. I started up and spun off one small business in my undegraduate career and another before going to grad school at Wharton. I now run my own company and employ 1 - 2 Ivy undergrads but have fired another 3 -4 for non-performance. I am happy with my life, I make a good income, I employ people, thus contributing to my state and community. Wonder what the person who sneered at Longwood does? Probably "just" a lawyer, not someone who has ever created anything.

Cool story, dude, but probably not a reason to place out of a top AP school.

Different strokes for different folks. Maybe some people prefer IB over AP. It's as simple as that. It doesn't make them wrong. It amazes me how much vitriol gets spilled out in the Madison and McLean vs. Marshall thing and the AP vs. IB. Doesn't it matter that your kids are happy and successful wherever they are?

+1 I was thinking the same thing, PP. Though it does seem that most of the vitriol is directed at Marshall and the IB program. I wonder why that is, especially given so many Madison and other AP parents are certain of the superiority of the AP program? Hmmm.....

+2. I am kind of in amazement at this thread. I really do not get it. Pick what is best for your child and move in. No need to attack the choices of others.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So, you are "stuck" with Marshall? Oh, how terrible! If you want AP, there is FCHS.

The horrors! How do you sleep at night?

I know, right? I went to Shrevewood AND Marshall. I am doing great. I guarantee you that my parents didn't give a second thought to sending me, either. Laughable to be "stuck" with any most any high school in FCPS, really.