Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For a better understanding of the Arabic language you should consult a good book on Arabic etymology. The Arabic language is very complex and it is advisable that you consult a specialist in the language when trying to affirm or negate certain meanings.

but again, we've already been through the discussion of meanings of words, just for example,

"Udhi'ya or Udhu'wa, are two names for the egg of the ostrich."

Udhiya is simply a singular of Dahyyaat. Udhuwa is the same word as Udhiya. Also, Deheya or Deheyya also means Udhiya. In the Arabic grammar, depending on the position of the word in the sentence, we sometimes substitute the pronunciation of the "y" with a "w". Udhiya and Udhuwa are not two different words. They are the same word. The Arabic word "dahaha" is derived from the root word "dahya" which literally means "egg". Udhuwa is the reference to "dahya". In Arabic, words that are referenced are sometimes written differently. Udhuwa and "dahya" are written differently, but they mean the same word.

Great. But then why do Muslim sources say "flat"? It would also be nice to see a cite to actual usage, but not the evangelizing cite.

There is a pretty extensive wikipedia page that consolidates the argument for & against. By appearances, it looks as though the "the Earth is an ostrich egg" is a post-dated rationalization. Sorry Muslim poster.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Flat_Earth_and_the_Qur'an

I really wouldn't go with Wikipedia, lol, again like i said previously anyone can go on wikipedia and write everything they want , just like anyone can go online and write anything they want. What I wnt to know is what muslim scholar hs come out and say the earth is flat?

takoma wrote:A couple of thoughts about this thread, to which I was one of the first responders. I read the first few pages, in which the bulk of actual responses to the original question were fairly similar to mine, but most of the discussion revolved around a zealot who can't get beyond the egocentric belief that anyone who does not share his/her beliefs will rot in Hell.

So I skipped to the end and found an interesting discussion of Arabic terms. The comment I like best is that the Arabic term for God, Allah, is a gender-free term. That is truly rational, since sex only makes sense when both male and female exist, not in a one-of-a-kind being.

If you had read the intervening pages, you would know that the people who know a decent amount about Islam, including an ex-Muslim, are pretty disgusted with the misrepresentations and behavior by this poster. But don't let the rest of this thread get in the way of your sanctimony....

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For a better understanding of the Arabic language you should consult a good book on Arabic etymology. The Arabic language is very complex and it is advisable that you consult a specialist in the language when trying to affirm or negate certain meanings.

but again, we've already been through the discussion of meanings of words, just for example,

"Udhi'ya or Udhu'wa, are two names for the egg of the ostrich."

Udhiya is simply a singular of Dahyyaat. Udhuwa is the same word as Udhiya. Also, Deheya or Deheyya also means Udhiya. In the Arabic grammar, depending on the position of the word in the sentence, we sometimes substitute the pronunciation of the "y" with a "w". Udhiya and Udhuwa are not two different words. They are the same word. The Arabic word "dahaha" is derived from the root word "dahya" which literally means "egg". Udhuwa is the reference to "dahya". In Arabic, words that are referenced are sometimes written differently. Udhuwa and "dahya" are written differently, but they mean the same word.

Great. But then why do Muslim sources say "flat"? It would also be nice to see a cite to actual usage, but not the evangelizing cite.

I am sorry but I don't know what Muslim sources you are talking about. Who? Give me a name? Just because someone put it on a website does not count as a muslim source to me. When I want to know something about Islam, I open the Quran itself or I read what Muslim Scholars that I know for a fact are credible have said on the topic , I dont just google things, so I have no idea what sources you are talking about. I have never heard a Muslim scholar say the earth is flat

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For a better understanding of the Arabic language you should consult a good book on Arabic etymology. The Arabic language is very complex and it is advisable that you consult a specialist in the language when trying to affirm or negate certain meanings.

but again, we've already been through the discussion of meanings of words, just for example,

"Udhi'ya or Udhu'wa, are two names for the egg of the ostrich."

Udhiya is simply a singular of Dahyyaat. Udhuwa is the same word as Udhiya. Also, Deheya or Deheyya also means Udhiya. In the Arabic grammar, depending on the position of the word in the sentence, we sometimes substitute the pronunciation of the "y" with a "w". Udhiya and Udhuwa are not two different words. They are the same word. The Arabic word "dahaha" is derived from the root word "dahya" which literally means "egg". Udhuwa is the reference to "dahya". In Arabic, words that are referenced are sometimes written differently. Udhuwa and "dahya" are written differently, but they mean the same word.

Great. But then why do Muslim sources say "flat"? It would also be nice to see a cite to actual usage, but not the evangelizing cite.

There is a pretty extensive wikipedia page that consolidates the argument for & against. By appearances, it looks as though the "the Earth is an ostrich egg" is a post-dated rationalization. Sorry Muslim poster.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Flat_Earth_and_the_Qur'an

Anonymous wrote:For a better understanding of the Arabic language you should consult a good book on Arabic etymology. The Arabic language is very complex and it is advisable that you consult a specialist in the language when trying to affirm or negate certain meanings.

but again, we've already been through the discussion of meanings of words, just for example,

"Udhi'ya or Udhu'wa, are two names for the egg of the ostrich."

Udhiya is simply a singular of Dahyyaat. Udhuwa is the same word as Udhiya. Also, Deheya or Deheyya also means Udhiya. In the Arabic grammar, depending on the position of the word in the sentence, we sometimes substitute the pronunciation of the "y" with a "w". Udhiya and Udhuwa are not two different words. They are the same word. The Arabic word "dahaha" is derived from the root word "dahya" which literally means "egg". Udhuwa is the reference to "dahya". In Arabic, words that are referenced are sometimes written differently. Udhuwa and "dahya" are written differently, but they mean the same word.

Great. But then why do Muslim sources say "flat"? It would also be nice to see a cite to actual usage, but not the evangelizing cite.

Anonymous wrote:One of the reasons that atheists seem so pissed off all the time is that we can't a simple discussion of what atheists believe without it turning into this thread. In this thread, some crazy nutjob came in and trolled the board with "You're going to fry in hell." Then someone else came in and started a lengthy discussion of what Muslims believe.

We're strafed with hate and then the thread is high-jacked for a discussion of another topic entirely. Is it anyone wonder that a lot of atheists stridently profess that believers are hateful and narcissistic?

I am sorry you feel this way, but you're right that we always stir away from the original topic, but I don't think its about Atheists only, this is the case in almost all threads on DCMum, i guess when a conversation starts, people inject their own beliefs and it ends up going south. I am the Muslim Poster, and I apologize, I really don't want to sound hateful

One of the reasons that atheists seem so pissed off all the time is that we can't a simple discussion of what atheists believe without it turning into this thread. In this thread, some crazy nutjob came in and trolled the board with "You're going to fry in hell." Then someone else came in and started a lengthy discussion of what Muslims believe.

We're strafed with hate and then the thread is high-jacked for a discussion of another topic entirely. Is it anyone wonder that a lot of atheists stridently profess that believers are hateful and narcissistic?

If Anyone is interested, they can download Dr. Maurice Bucaille's book here for free, he is a French surgeon and the book is titled: Th bible, the Quran and Science

http://ia600504.us.archive.org/18/items/TheBibletheQuranScienceByDr.mauriceBucaille/TheBibletheQuranScienceByDr.mauriceBucaille.pdf

takoma wrote:A couple of thoughts about this thread, to which I was one of the first responders. I read the first few pages, in which the bulk of actual responses to the original question were fairly similar to mine, but most of the discussion revolved around a zealot who can't get beyond the egocentric belief that anyone who does not share his/her beliefs will rot in Hell.

So I skipped to the end and found an interesting discussion of Arabic terms. The comment I like best is that the Arabic term for God, Allah, is a gender-free term. That is truly rational, since sex only makes sense when both male and female exist, not in a one-of-a-kind being.

Thanks for sharing your perspective. Additionally, it can't be plural either, so no gender and no plurality for the word. Also, in English, the only difference between "god", meaning a false God, and "God", meaning the One True God, is the capital "G". In the Arabic alphabet, since it does not have capital letters, the word for God (i.e. Allah) is formed by adding the equivalent to the English word "the" (Al-) to the Arabic word for "God/God" (ilah). So the Arabic word "Allah" literally it means "The God" - the "Al-" in Arabic basically serving the same function as the capital "G" in English. Due to the above mentioned facts, a more accurate translation of the word "Allah" into English might be "The One -and-Only God" or "The One True God".

The word Allah, according to several Arabic lexicons, means "the Being Who comprises all the attributes of perfection", i.e. the Being Who is perfect in every way (in His knowledge, power etc.), and possesses the best and the noblest qualities imaginable in the highest degree.
Lane's Arabic-English Lexicon (which is based on classical Arabic dictionaries), says under the word Allah, while citing many linguistical authorities:

"Allah ... is a proper name applied to the Being Who exists necessarily, by Himself, comprising all the attributes of perfection, a proper name denoting the true god ... the al being inseparable from it, not derived..."

So yeh translating Arabic to English can be a daunting task....

A couple of thoughts about this thread, to which I was one of the first responders. I read the first few pages, in which the bulk of actual responses to the original question were fairly similar to mine, but most of the discussion revolved around a zealot who can't get beyond the egocentric belief that anyone who does not share his/her beliefs will rot in Hell.

So I skipped to the end and found an interesting discussion of Arabic terms. The comment I like best is that the Arabic term for God, Allah, is a gender-free term. That is truly rational, since sex only makes sense when both male and female exist, not in a one-of-a-kind being.

For a better understanding of the Arabic language you should consult a good book on Arabic etymology. The Arabic language is very complex and it is advisable that you consult a specialist in the language when trying to affirm or negate certain meanings.

but again, we've already been through the discussion of meanings of words, just for example,

"Udhi'ya or Udhu'wa, are two names for the egg of the ostrich."

Udhiya is simply a singular of Dahyyaat. Udhuwa is the same word as Udhiya. Also, Deheya or Deheyya also means Udhiya. In the Arabic grammar, depending on the position of the word in the sentence, we sometimes substitute the pronunciation of the "y" with a "w". Udhiya and Udhuwa are not two different words. They are the same word. The Arabic word "dahaha" is derived from the root word "dahya" which literally means "egg". Udhuwa is the reference to "dahya". In Arabic, words that are referenced are sometimes written differently. Udhuwa and "dahya" are written differently, but they mean the same word.

Just like english words, arabic words have numerous meanings and even more than in English. The word dahaha has both meanings.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Yes, and the word for "virgin" is close to the word for "white raisin." There are issues with Arabic, which I studied for a year. However, I guess I'm not going to rely on a proselytizing site (turntoislsm.com, LOL) for an authoritative translation.

Good for you! Noone in the Qu'ran does it mention virgins by the way if you were referring to the 70 virgins lol. Its just funny how it is the same arguments that come over and over. Well since TurntoIslam is not an authoritive translation maybe you should try turntoatheism. Again, my point here is not to convince you about anything, I have no interest in that. My conviction is enough for me, what you believe or look for quite frankly doesn't keep me up at night

Well, actually, the words for "virgin" and "white grape" involve the exact same consonants and, because the vowels aren't written out, there's definitely room for debate as to what this means. Why do you think all the martyrs talk beforehand about looking forward to their virgins?

Trying to keep you honest is apparently a never-ending task.

Again, my question to you was, where in the Quran does it say anything about Virgins? Besides the miraculous birth of Jesus? So why is this a discussion again about jihadists?? WHere in teh Quran is that promise?

We were talking by analogy of the challenges in translating Arabic. Still waiting for an authoratative (i.e, not written expressly to convert anybody) use of the word "egg-shaped." TIA.

The Arabic word ‘Dahaha’ comes from root word ‘Duhya’, meaning an Egg-shape and it does not refer to any normal Egg. It specifically refers to the Egg of an Ostrich - ( You can check an arabic-english dictionary that will provide all teh meanings of the word) Here is a link that shows you how that verse has been translated , you have 42 translations of that verse, and some of them say eggshaped, others say spread out:
http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/79/30/default.htm

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Yes, and the word for "virgin" is close to the word for "white raisin." There are issues with Arabic, which I studied for a year. However, I guess I'm not going to rely on a proselytizing site (turntoislsm.com, LOL) for an authoritative translation.

Good for you! Noone in the Qu'ran does it mention virgins by the way if you were referring to the 70 virgins lol. Its just funny how it is the same arguments that come over and over. Well since TurntoIslam is not an authoritive translation maybe you should try turntoatheism. Again, my point here is not to convince you about anything, I have no interest in that. My conviction is enough for me, what you believe or look for quite frankly doesn't keep me up at night

Well, actually, the words for "virgin" and "white grape" involve the exact same consonants and, because the vowels aren't written out, there's definitely room for debate as to what this means. Why do you think all the martyrs talk beforehand about looking forward to their virgins?

Trying to keep you honest is apparently a never-ending task.

Again, my question to you was, where in the Quran does it say anything about Virgins? Besides the miraculous birth of Jesus? So why is this a discussion again about jihadists?? WHere in teh Quran is that promise?

We were talking by analogy of the challenges in translating Arabic. Still waiting for an authoratative (i.e, not written expressly to convert anybody) use of the word "egg-shaped." TIA.

Proselytizing usually has the counter effect for people with an iota of critical thinking. I'm continually amazed that proselytizers don't realize this.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Yes, and the word for "virgin" is close to the word for "white raisin." There are issues with Arabic, which I studied for a year. However, I guess I'm not going to rely on a proselytizing site (turntoislsm.com, LOL) for an authoritative translation.

Good for you! Noone in the Qu'ran does it mention virgins by the way if you were referring to the 70 virgins lol. Its just funny how it is the same arguments that come over and over. Well since TurntoIslam is not an authoritive translation maybe you should try turntoatheism. Again, my point here is not to convince you about anything, I have no interest in that. My conviction is enough for me, what you believe or look for quite frankly doesn't keep me up at night

Well, actually, the words for "virgin" and "white grape" involve the exact same consonants and, because the vowels aren't written out, there's definitely room for debate as to what this means. Why do you think all the martyrs talk beforehand about looking forward to their virgins?

Trying to keep you honest is apparently a never-ending task.

Again, my question to you was, where in the Quran does it say anything about Virgins? Besides the miraculous birth of Jesus? So why is this a discussion again about jihadists?? WHere in teh Quran is that promise?

We were talking by analogy of the challenges in translating Arabic. Still waiting for an authoratative (i.e, not written expressly to convert anybody) use of the word "egg-shaped." TIA.