This thread is nuts, with lots of assumptions and unneeded defensiveness.

Me, I'd totally terminate a severely disabled kid. Probably even Down's, even having known both truly dear children and adults with the syndrome. I'd have to do some research first, though.

Do I expect judgement for this decision, yes. Do I care? No. So long as I continue to be able to make that choice then judge away. I'd still mourn the life that would have, could have been. The universe can be cruel in allowing such conditions to exist, and we have the technology to minimize some risk and I choose to use it. Especially as I already have a child and so his needs would most certainly take a back seat.

As for those who do choose to bring disabled children into the world, well, great. I'm sure your child will bring you much joy making the struggles worth it, and more power to you. I admire their courage, certainly. I absolutely believe there should be support for those, public and private.

I will admit to passing judgement on those who choose to carry when their fetus is absolutely incompatible with life because I think it's pointless. But, they get to choose what's best for them and more power to them. I've never had a personal friend choose that path, but if I did I would support them all the way. Maybe that would change my mind, but I don't think so. I think of how so many strangers made comments about my pregnancy during those later months and I know I couldn't stand the knife every time knowing that there was a doomed being getting stronger every day with no hope of survival past a few painful moments.

Anonymous wrote:Okay, I give up. Obviously the only right thing to do is abort kids with Down syndrome, and anyone who thinks differently is just in denial, an asshole, or trying to control other people. Too bad people with Ds don't get a say in this.

And yes, to the PP, having a child with Ds is very much like having a typical kid, hard as that obviously is for those in this thread to believe. Most children with Ds don't have "wires coming out of every orifice."

Why can't the pro-choice crowd argue for choice without shitting all over the lives of people with Ds?

Please point to one person who said that. No one did, obviously. People said THEY would, and if you're pro choice, as you claim, you're OK with that. But precisely no one said "the only right thign to do is abort a DS baby, or any SN baby."

If all you have to contribute is hyperbolic straw men, then yes, please go away.

Anonymous wrote:Okay, I give up. Obviously the only right thing to do is abort kids with Down syndrome, and anyone who thinks differently is just in denial, an asshole, or trying to control other people. Too bad people with Ds don't get a say in this.

And yes, to the PP, having a child with Ds is very much like having a typical kid, hard as that obviously is for those in this thread to believe. Most children with Ds don't have "wires coming out of every orifice."

Why can't the pro-choice crowd argue for choice without shitting all over the lives of people with Ds?

This is ridiculous. I don't know if you are the OP, but the OP STARTED THE ARGUMENT but shitting all over people who decided to terminate pregnancies. YOUR CHOICE to continue a pregnancy like this is grand great wonderful and YOUR BUSINESS. No one here is judging you for doing that, but you are judging others for their choices. So then you don't get to throw your hands up when people disagree.

I terminated a pregnancy due to T21, I have complicated chronic health issues of my own that played into the decision. Do I feel terrible, guilty, and heartbroken every single day? YES. Am I in disbelief of what happened because it is so horrid? YES. Is that what you want to hear?

But then, How sure am I that I made the right decision? The one that would most likely save my body for more time (lifting heavy weight and certain physical movement actually destroys my spinal cord) and allow myself to continue to be a mother of our one other child, and assist in providing financially for our family, instead of becoming completely disabled at a young age (instead of just middle age) and causing major hardship on all of our lives? I am 100% sure that we made the right decision.

This duality of thought is surprising, and incredibly difficult to understand if you haven't been through it yourself. And, according to the shrink I started to see, this is the conflict that almost every single person she has seen (many) in this situation goes through.

People who live with DS or are caregiver's of them are completely wonderful. But there is nothing you can say that will convince me that it is like raising a NT child. Our visit to Children's to discuss the realities of the situation confirmed this for us anyway.

Anonymous wrote:What many of you fail to think about is that special needs, adorable little babies grow up to be special needs ADULTS. My parents can no longer even lift my sibling into and out of bed, the bath, or the toilet. Do you know how much the benefit from social security is? Nothing. Ever been in one of those homes for "people like him", who don't have a lot of money to pay for high quality care?

Unless as a society we are prepared to care for our special needs citizens - and do a decent job of it - we should STFU about who should be giving birth, or not.

THANK YOU, POSTER!

Like I said before, you all are living the easy life because you can afford extra help, medical assistance and perhaps even moving your disabled children to a home when they get older. Many will not have this option.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP here: ^^ great. Please go away. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Really? How can you be so sure? I actually do both have experience with this and believe kids with Ds have real potential and as much a right to be here as anyone else. I am also pro-choice.

But nice try making lots of assumptions about me.

But PP, that is YOUR experience and it's not everyone else's. That's where you are all so closed minded. Because in your world it works out great doesn't mean that it works out wonderful for everyone else. Just please have the mental capacity to understand it's not the same experience for everyone.

What many of you fail to think about is that special needs, adorable little babies grow up to be special needs ADULTS. My parents can no longer even lift my sibling into and out of bed, the bath, or the toilet. Do you know how much the benefit from social security is? Nothing. Ever been in one of those homes for "people like him", who don't have a lot of money to pay for high quality care?

Unless as a society we are prepared to care for our special needs citizens - and do a decent job of it - we should STFU about who should be giving birth, or not.

Anonymous wrote:Okay, I give up. Obviously the only right thing to do is abort kids with Down syndrome, and anyone who thinks differently is just in denial, an asshole, or trying to control other people. Too bad people with Ds don't get a say in this.

And yes, to the PP, having a child with Ds is very much like having a typical kid, hard as that obviously is for those in this thread to believe. Most children with Ds don't have "wires coming out of every orifice."

Why can't the pro-choice crowd argue for choice without shitting all over the lives of people with Ds?

Because people who are pro-choice believe that it is the mother's choice whether she wants to end the pregnancy of a child with DS or any other condition. You aren't in denial or an asshole for believing that you are capable of raising a child with DS. Go right ahead, and better yet, adopt a child with that condition, or a few.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP here: ^^ great. Please go away. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Really? How can you be so sure? I actually do both have experience with this and believe kids with Ds have real potential and as much a right to be here as anyone else. I am also pro-choice.


But nice try making lots of assumptions about me.

NP, do you actually have a child with downs. Or, are you talking about a friend's child, a relative, or work related. What exactly is your experience.

Sibling with Ds.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP here: ^^ great. Please go away. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Really? How can you be so sure? I actually do both have experience with this and believe kids with Ds have real potential and as much a right to be here as anyone else. I am also pro-choice.


But nice try making lots of assumptions about me.

NP, do you actually have a child with downs. Or, are you talking about a friend's child, a relative, or work related. What exactly is your experience.

Anonymous wrote:NP here: ^^ great. Please go away. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Really? How can you be so sure? I actually do both have experience with this and believe kids with Ds have real potential and as much a right to be here as anyone else. I am also pro-choice.

But nice try making lots of assumptions about me.

Anonymous wrote:Okay, I give up. Obviously the only right thing to do is abort kids with Down syndrome, and anyone who thinks differently is just in denial, an asshole, or trying to control other people. Too bad people with Ds don't get a say in this.

And yes, to the PP, having a child with Ds is very much like having a typical kid, hard as that obviously is for those in this thread to believe. Most children with Ds don't have "wires coming out of every orifice."

Why can't the pro-choice crowd argue for choice without shitting all over the lives of people with Ds?

19:18 here. My kids don't have Downs but I've never met a family with a Downs child that didn't also have significant medical/therapy expenses and lifelong concerns. Even if the child doesn't have "wires coming out of every orifice", which you won't know until after the child is born, it is NOT very much like having a NT kid. You can say you were able to manage it, that you know others who were able to manage it but you can't say it's not much different than having an NT kid. It is very different.

I don't give a rat's ass why someone gets an abortion. It's not my business. It's really easy to say raising an SN child isn't that much different than a NT, but it is - and I don't see many people outside the SN world working to change that reality.

NP here: ^^ great. Please go away. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Okay, I give up. Obviously the only right thing to do is abort kids with Down syndrome, and anyone who thinks differently is just in denial, an asshole, or trying to control other people. Too bad people with Ds don't get a say in this.

And yes, to the PP, having a child with Ds is very much like having a typical kid, hard as that obviously is for those in this thread to believe. Most children with Ds don't have "wires coming out of every orifice."

Why can't the pro-choice crowd argue for choice without shitting all over the lives of people with Ds?

Amen 19:18. Thank you!

Your post is full of so many sad assumptions that I don't know where to start. So you think the siblings of kids with Ds are neglected and suffer? I can introduce you to lots of families (many pro-choice and liberal by the way, as I am) where that isn't true at all. True, children with Ds often need therapies. So do many "typical" kids. If you definitely can't provide for the kinds of needs most kids with Ds have financially, then it's doubtful you can provide financially for any kid, because most kids with Ds don't take expensive medicine or need constant expensive therapies. I might add that any one of a number of things can happen with a typically developing kid which would necessitate expensive meds, or therapies. And again, if the strain of a kid with Ds will break up your marriage (the lives of most kids with Ds don't differ that tremendously from those of "typical" kids) then there is a good liklihood it won't survive parenthood, which can be challenging period. Why is it worth it to do all the hard work to raise a "typical" kid but not one with Ds? What are we really striving for here? Would you abort for autism? Extreme shyness? Mental illness? ADHD? Sensory processing disorders? Bi-polar? Because lots of kids fall under some umbrella of special needs, it just isn't detectable prenatally.

The most important thing here is not keeping me from judging you, no! The most important thing is not to stigmatize kids with Ds by perpetuating a lot of the myths you have in your previous post. But in the end the decision should be yours. But I don't have to like it.

Not the PP your responding to but someone with SN kids. My NT kids aren't neglected but they aren't having the childhood they should. Our SN kids get far more attention and resources than our NT kids and the NTs are often resentful, feel less loved and not as important. It doesn't matter what we say to them or how we try to make it up to them, they aren't getting their fair share and they know it. You may know lots of families where that's not the case but I probably know more families where that's NOT the case. It doesn't even matter if you did know more because I'm living with it day in and day out. It's wrenching. I have no idea what 'therapies' a typical kid would need that would come close to be equal to what SN kids need - and I'm not even talking about the more severe SN kids. Kids with ADHD, communication disorders, movement disorders, sensory processing disorder, etc often require a lot of therapy to minimize the impact of their disorders on their daily lives. It's not the same as getting a private coach for lacrosse. Any reason an NT kid would need therapy would also apply to an SN kid but NT kids aren't going to need the therapies that an SN kid needs. Double therapy, how fun, how expensive! The relationship strain is also far greater. Divorce of parents of SN kids is far greater than for parents of NT kids. Even disorders like ADHD, which some consider mild or run-of-the-mill in the SN community, are accompanied by far greater parental divorce rates. Saying the cost and strain of raising an SN kid is not tremendously different than a NT kid is just bullshit. Why do you think there's a separate Special Needs forum? Because the needs of SN kids/parents have some tremendously different needs than 'General Parenting" and "Older Kids and Teens". I can also tell you there is a HUGE amount of stigma associated with the SN diagnosis. But, it would be a lot easier to bear if more people would acknowldege and understand how fucking hard it is to raise SN kids rather than perpetuating bullshit that it's not much different than raising NT kids. It's IS very different. No one likes an abortion but even if it were illegal, people would still find a way to have them. Everyone would be better off to shift their focus from abortion to helping struggling families whether their kids have SN or not.